What's new

POST-Starfire Joker MU Chart

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
The mb b3 is not used for whiff punishing its used for when he just does them on block. The only whiff punish bane has for raw teeth is the d1. His other buttons dont have the range. D1 doesnt connect into mb b3 on hit, and doesnt connect into uppercut unless point blank. D1 into elbow is his go to punish but that is quick enough that he is actually true punishing joker with the d1 then he just lands back on the teeth with the elbow. Button into command grab would only work as a tick on block which makes it not a true punish
But if the Joker is throwing close teeth and you are in d1 range, chances are that the Joker player is going to block after teeth, meaning a d1 into throw would eat the teeth and you will get the grab, of course the Joker player can read the grab but then we could go back and forth about the variables. My point is, you have ways to armor through jokers neutral pretty effectively. I will not downplay the teeth effectiveness in the slightest. However you do have effective options in the MU where jokers options are much more limited at a close range.

Like I said, jokers the most effective when trying to keep bane out. Jokers tools to keep him out, are only teeth and gunshot. Gunshot can be ducked and dashed after and teeth which can pose just as much a risk to joker If you know how to deal with them. If bane gets in, joker is screwed plain and simple. 4-6 means joker has effective options that could grant him a win, but the risk/reward favors his opponent if he doesnt play it perfectly. Im not saying this is a 3-7 or 2-8. 4-6 means it's doable but the odds aren't in his favor. You can't possibly think it's even when joker has to play flawlessly to not get knocked down because if he does, he's screwed. While your character has the mobility, armor and damage to deal with joker and genuinely needs 1 knock down to blow joker up. Great conversation by the way man!!!
 
I dont think anyone here understands how good teeth are against Bane. Proactively dropping teeth not only builds constant meter for Joker giving him mb b3s or meter for combos everywhere on top of nullifying the threat of charge but it also breaks Banes armor when combined with any normal at the same time and also gets him out of command grab before he can slam you and punishes elbow on HIT. Yes Bane pummels him on knockdown if he gets a clean one without teeth out but this match up has not changed since 1. Its proactive teeth and meter building while Bane has to be patient and work his way around them. Bane also has to hold just about everything on debuff.

This is a 5-5 at worst
I'd say both you and Vengeance are both making good points. Can I verse you sometime? I want to get a better handling of what you're saying about teeth so that I can make a more concrete response. Gamertag is Vex_Chan. Hope to see you sometime!

Only thing I'd say is teeth is not nearly as + on block as it used to be. So don't think that, because you block teeth, Joker can go in for a free jump or string. Most of the time, d2 can beat it out now :/
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
But if the Joker is throwing close teeth and you are in d1 range, chances are that the Joker player is going to block after teeth, meaning a d1 into throw would eat the teeth and you will get the grab, of course the Joker player can read the grab but then we could go back and forth about the variables. My point is, you have ways to armor through jokers neutral pretty effectively. I will not downplay the teeth effectiveness in the slightest. However you do have effective options in the MU where jokers options are much more limited at a close range.

Like I said, jokers the most effective when trying to keep bane out. Jokers tools to keep him out, are only teeth and gunshot. Gunshot can be ducked and dashed after and teeth which can pose just as much a risk to joker If you know how to deal with them. If bane gets in, joker is screwed plain and simple. 4-6 means joker has effective options that could grant him a win, but the risk/reward favors his opponent if he doesnt play it perfectly. Im not saying this is a 3-7 or 2-8. 4-6 means it's doable but the odds aren't in his favor. You can't possibly think it's even when joker has to play flawlessly to not get knocked down because if he does, he's screwed. While your character has the mobility, armor and damage to deal with joker and genuinely needs 1 knock down to blow joker up. Great conversation by the way man!!!
Ok so in this scenario of joker blocking the d1 after teeth and bane doing a tick after then its not even a true punish anymore, joker here could have just dropped teeth and backdashed to avoid all of it. The thing is yes, bane will eventually get through teeth but by the time he is able to joker should have built plenty of meter for mb b3s (not pushblocks) which are universally there to deal with banes armor moves into a full combo. Joker is not screwed in the nuetral here at all, he is the one in control and bane does not get control until after a clean knockdown free of teeth. I think you are assuming that since joker has to play differently against bane that it is bad for him but everyone has to play differently against bane
 
I see your point that Joker has options in both MU's. However, by no means does that outweigh the hefty advantages both Bane and Fate have over Joker.

Before I start, I wanted to point out that you're explanations make it seem as if you're not thinking about both characters playing at the highest level. For example, a good Bane will never full screen charge. And a good Fate wouldn't just spam mindlessly. And you take into an account that Fate players "simply doesn't know what a combo is." Points like these aren't valid to dictate a MU number. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to go in-depth on both MU's.

Bane: It really does not require that much patience for a Bane to get in. Yes, he shouldn't do full screen charge, cause that means we get a free combo, but a good Bane who actually knows the MU would never do that. Instead, he will duck gunshots and get a dash in to (very effectively) close the distance between the two. Once he gets in, it's hell for Joker. With his normals, armor, and specials combined, I'm sure Bane is effective against many characters, but it's even worse for Joker. As I have already addressed before in multiple threads, Joker's neutral is garbage. Bane's D1, D2, and Command throw shuts down Joker at footsie range. Once he gets the knockdown, it's very hard for Joker to get out because he has no wakeup. So we mostly rely on delayed wakeup or a lucky backdash. I find that delayed wakeup is also pretty useless because, after, let's say a command throw knockdown, Bane can do another command throw, D1, or D2. These all have good enough recovery so that, when Bane recognizes that Joker is doing delayed wakeup, he can still go for another mixup.

In summary: It's really not that difficult to get in as long as you don't rely on charges (so the whole teeth combo thing is pretty null if you actually have a good opponent). Bane footsies > Joker footsies. Only thing I'd say Bane would have to respect in neutral is our teeth throwing. Not going to downplay and say it's easy to avoid, but Bane has enough mobility and range in footsies to deal with some teeth throws. On knockdown, Bane destroys Joker. There's no way in the world that Joker's "zoning" makes up for the massive amounts of damage Bane can afflict on Joker knowing that he doesn't have a wakeup.

Fate: Joker DEFINITELY does not outright beat Fate in zoning. However, Joker can somewhat compete in the zoning war in hopes of getting closer (because he does not win zoning). A good Fate would not mindlessly spam. He will respect our gunshot and be patient for MB gunshot. From there, he has fireballs, orb, or aux to effectively keep out Joker. All of these tools favor Fate, and the uses of these tools will ultimately prove more effective than Joker's zoning tool, gun. Even when Joker does make his way in, Fate's F2 is super effective in footsies because Joker has nothing to compete with that. If Joker gets a combo in, it's not like it's super easy to just keep doing setup after setup either because Fate has a wakeup that puts us back at a far range. Granted, there are ways around it, but it's still a solid option if you combine that with delayed wakeup (which destroys all of Joker's setups).

Hope this helps depict the MU realistically in high-level gameplay. Comment again if you'd like to disagree or argue my points or just want some help in a MU :)
Next Post will be a Video Guys, You both made valid points, which I believe is mostly for tournament play. As far as online tho it's been gold for me
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I'd say both you and Vengeance are both making good points. Can I verse you sometime? I want to get a better handling of what you're saying about teeth so that I can make a more concrete response. Gamertag is Vex_Chan. Hope to see you sometime!

Only thing I'd say is teeth is not nearly as + on block as it used to be. So don't think that, because you block teeth, Joker can go in for a free jump or string. Most of the time, d2 can beat it out now :/
Sure ill play. Joker should not be going for pressure off teeth thougg. Im not exaggerating when I say he should be playing as lame as possible. If Bane is in blockstun from teeth then joker should just throw out another pair of teeth. He is not opening bane up with plus frames or jumpins or anything pike that. He is opening bane up by baiting unsafe armor and mb b3s from all the meter he builds in nuetral
 
Sure ill play. Joker should not be going for pressure off teeth thougg. Im not exaggerating when I say he should be playing as lame as possible. If Bane is in blockstun from teeth then joker should just throw out another pair of teeth. He is not opening bane up with plus frames or jumpins or anything pike that. He is opening bane up by baiting unsafe armor and mb b3s from all the meter he builds in nuetral
Ok I can definitely see your point. I'll test it out with ya sometime! :)
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Sure ill play. Joker should not be going for pressure off teeth thougg. Im not exaggerating when I say he should be playing as lame as possible. If Bane is in blockstun from teeth then joker should just throw out another pair of teeth. He is not opening bane up with plus frames or jumpins or anything pike that. He is opening bane up by baiting unsafe armor and mb b3s from all the meter he builds in nuetral
I'd love to play you as well add me

PSN Vengeance135

Btw does level 3 venom still eat armored moves?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Sure ill play. Joker should not be going for pressure off teeth thougg. Im not exaggerating when I say he should be playing as lame as possible. If Bane is in blockstun from teeth then joker should just throw out another pair of teeth. He is not opening bane up with plus frames or jumpins or anything pike that. He is opening bane up by baiting unsafe armor and mb b3s from all the meter he builds in nuetral

If you want, we could lab the MU together. There could be something I'm missing or I don't know that could for sure change my mind sir
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
I always compared the joker bane mu to a dam with a crack in it. You can hold it off for so long but once he gets the knockdown it gets fucked up real fast. Tho it mayb be more true for i1 but the mu is very similar here
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I always compared the joker bane mu to a dam with a crack in it. You can hold it off for so long but once he gets the knockdown it gets fucked up real fast. Tho it mayb be more true for i1 but the mu is very similar here

Man I remember that MU in injustice 1. That was absolutely awful. Though I feel like there's some differences between bane from injustice 1and 2 I just can't remember what they are
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
You can hold it off for so long but once he gets the knockdown it gets fucked up real fast.
Thats every bane match up. Thats a bane thing, not a joker only thing
Man I remember that MU in injustice 1. That was absolutely awful. Though I feel like there's some differences between bane from injustice 1and 2 I just can't remember what they are
His armor went from -6/-7 to -29/-30 lol. That is the relevant change here
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Thats every bane match up. Thats a bane thing, not a joker only thing

His armor went from -6/-7 to -29/-30 lol. That is the relevant change here

Did they tamper with anything else by chance? I remember him being a bit different in injustice 1 lol
 

Skedar70

Noob
Lol I understand. Joker can be a handful if you don't have enough MU experience.
I'm not sure if you are on ps4 or not but if so, add me if you want to learn about the Joker. He is way more tolerable when you know how to deal with him.

PSN Vengeance135
Hey, I ran into a good joker last night and had the same issue. I ran into a string to teeth vortex/crossups that I had no idea how to get out of. I used Grodd and I can't believe I have no options.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Hey, I ran into a good joker last night and had the same issue. I ran into a string to teeth vortex/crossups that I had no idea how to get out of. I used Grodd and I can't believe I have no options.
I'm not sure what grodd is like now with the patch, but as of now, i firmly think joker beats grodd. If you do need some help with the mu, I'm willing to run some sets with you just add me on PSN Vengeance135