POST-Starfire Joker MU Chart

[Vengeance135]

Ok. How about the other 2 question?

Gameplay is read your opponent and punish where applicable.

Jokers strengths are his corner game and zoning in certain MU's. He gets outplayed by 90% of the cast who does everything better or easier.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You know starfire has no wakeup right?

 

[Vengeance135]

You know starfire has no wakeup right?

I don't know how well her wake ups work vs others but it's pretty hard to stuff her wake ups as Joker outside of a proper read. Unless you know some stuff with joker then by all means, please share.

 

[Vengeance135]

You know starfire has no wakeup right?

And she also has wake up options. Joker has none. So she for sure does have better wake ups then him lol

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

And she also has wake up options. Joker has none. So she for sure does have better wake ups then him lol

She has 0 wakeups, her wakeups are Black Adam level, as in, never do them.

 

[Vengeance135]

She has 0 wakeups, her wakeups are Black Adam level, as in, never do them.

I see. like I said though, in the joker MU where she doesn't have to respect too much, she can get away with waking up. More so then joker. He literally has no wake ups. His go to wake up is parry and it's not invincible. Every character in the game can easily stuff it, including starfire. I don't know how she fairs in other MU's, but in the joker MU she can use her wake ups.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I see. like I said though, in the joker MU where she doesn't have to respect too much, she can get away with waking up. More so then joker. He literally has no wake ups. His go to wake up is parry and it's not invincible. Every character in the game can easily stuff it, including starfire. I don't know how she fairs in other MU's, but in the joker MU she can use her wake ups.

She can't, I've just told you she has no wake up lol, go test it yourself.

You can't just counter argue me by essentially saying ' I have no meaty timing '

Wakeups don't matter vs starfire anyway, she's not mixing you up, and she's not ending combos near, so why does it matter?

Whereas it is a matter against Joker. Because his idea is to hard to blockable you, or make you hold shit.

 

[SaltShaker]

Damn this character lookin extra ass cheeks lol.

 

[Vengeance135]

She can't, I've just told you she has no wake up lol, go test it yourself.

You can't just counter argue me by essentially saying ' I have no meaty timing '

Wakeups don't matter vs starfire anyway, she's not mixing you up, and she's not ending combos near, so why does it matter?

Whereas it is a matter against Joker. Because his idea is to hard to blockable you, or make you hold shit.

Okay I may be explaining this wrong. If joker has knocked her down, she can wake up with 3 different moves.

The best wake up she has that goes through jokers follow up strings is burning desire. It can be stuffed with only 21 and f21 but the timing is tight and dependent on the knock down. Assuming she wakes up with this move.

Shooting star can be used as a wake up to avoid any teeth jump in set ups as it takes her off the ground and covers both in front and behind her. Can only be stuffed by 21 and f21 depending on the knock down.

T charge is we weakest wake up in the MU but can avoid teeth on the ground and any jump in UNLESS JOKER reads the wake up. It can be stuffed with 21 and f21. 32 trades unfavorably to joker.

Joker has to take her wake up into consideration when trying to do a set up. If he guesses wrong he's either eating some serious damage or getting blasted away. Most likely both.

Now jokers wake ups.

Parry: gets beat by everything as long as the string is active during his wake up.

Crowbar: no invincibility.

Starfire has better wake up options in the MU. Depending on her wake up, joker has to time the meaty differently. You see what I'm trying to say now?

 

[Vengeance135]

Damn this character lookin extra ass cheeks lol.

Don't get me wrong, he's fun to use. Just not very good lol

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I know what you're saying, but what you're saying is wrong.

Just time your meaty properly and she can't wake up with anything.

 

[Vengeance135]

I know what you're saying, but what you're saying is wrong.

Just time your meaty properly and she can't wake up with anything.

Like I said, the timings are different per wake up. As a player who uses nobody but joker and labs MU's consistently, I know what I'm talking about. You are right in the sense that if my meatys are timed perfectly, they will work. But the timing isn't the same for each of her wake ups so it's inconsistent if joker has to make the read. So what I'm saying is indeed correct.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Ok. How about the other 2 question?

I'm not a super duper expert but I've got about 700 games with him.

Joker has 2 speeds all in or keep away.

Gunshots are surprisingly fast, like, if you don't play Joker go play him and you'll see how much it trades favorably with.

Here's just one example, it can punish in between two Harley gunshots if timed properly, it can punish FTD, it can punish Omega beams, it's just not a bad tool.

IF you can get them to respect gun shots, then you can mix some canisters in there, especially if you're opponent doesn't have a fast way to punish. You can also throw it meaty in some knockdown situations.

So his zoning is a smidgeon better than ok. It's good, just not better than Fate, Deadshot, Arrow and Starfire. Other characters it's dependent on the range and how good your reads are.

Point is, it's super useful.

Joker has very poor neutral Game. He's got T-Rex range and no really good advancing moves. Things like f212 are so telegraphed that it's easy to react to since it doesn't really move forward at once.

If you like footsies don't play this character. You can win up close or far away at times but playing mid range is suicide.

That being said, you do have some options. Obviously Crowbar can be meter burned for armor and sometimes you might catch someone off guard but you can't rely on it.

Teeth can be punished at times but you can drop them in neutral against some characters to limit advances I'm thinking for like Bane and Grodd.

Joker's D2 is slow but the range ain't bad and you can special cancel it in a small window. So you can read block and be safe with Crowbar (against most).

Finally, his up close game is riddled with gaps. You might think you can 32 into special but you can't, you will get d2'ed by anyone that knows that match up. So lots of 21, it's a mid string that's plus and you can cancel into neutral or special depending on whether you hit. There's also a gap there.

Because of his gaps you're gonna have to mb some f3's in there to get people to respect it.

You've got a pretty good sweep, it's not Scarecrow's but it's got solid range. Some players are gonna try and back dash everything you do, don't let them, gotta keep em honest. You can catch some with your jump ins. J3 has got great range and you can throw some teeth after it and put them on the defensive. J2 is a cross up one but it's got a junky hit box, if you don't have trait activated you're liable to whiff a lot instead you can use j1 which has a pretty good downward sloped hit box.

In the corner there are a bunch of different things you can do I've seen very few Joker players play the corner the same but the gist of it is knock em down and keep em down. Reset, teeth, reset, teeth, armored f3, teeth into cross up, it depends on what character you're playing against. For some the corner can be a death sentence for others not so much. My advice is to go into practice and see for yourself what works against what wake ups.

But you can't keep the corner every game. There are no legitimate mid screen set ups. One way or another they are all avoidable but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. If you can condition your opponent to do the same escape each time you can use it to your advantage either by bettering position or punishing. 2 examples: one Red Hood player decided he was going to back dash every knock down/teeth set up mid screen. You can catch that with a jump in or a well-timed shot or in some places a crow bar. If they decide to delayed wake up you can start delaying teeth and going for ambiguous cross ups with teeth, if they want to wake up you can bait and punish or just stuff it with mb3 or f3. Point is, they make a decision and you make a read. Remember you can always do teeth into nothing, don't even move. Just watch what they decide to do and plan for it.

Your wake ups fucking suck. There's no two ways about it. Don't ever do crow bar because you will get stuffed. Parry gets beat by jump ins and lows and it can be stuffed. It's garbage and it's not even invincible and it doesn't work on cross up f3 moves which is super duper lame. Your options are block or make a serious hard read, I mean, like Cheetah players use f3 like it's going out of style because it's so good for her but a character with a low starter an overhead and a nasty jump in like Flash will maul you on wake up. So guess right. His greatest strength is also his greatest weakness.

This wasn't a super tech heavy outline but that's basically what you're doing.

P.S. Play like a goddamn lunatic, get into the character, make yourself unpredictable.

 

[Invincible Salads]

She has 0 wakeups, her wakeups are Black Adam level, as in, never do them.

i thought her hair whip is her wake up.....

also i saw u have joker beating aquaman, not sure how that works, aqua still has superior neutral.

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm not a super duper expert but I've got about 700 games with him.

Joker has 2 speeds all in or keep away.

Gunshots are surprisingly fast, like, if you don't play Joker go play him and you'll see how much it trades favorably with.

Here's just one example, it can punish in between two Harley gunshots if timed properly, it can punish FTD, it can punish Omega beams, it's just not a bad tool.

IF you can get them to respect gun shots, then you can mix some canisters in there, especially if you're opponent doesn't have a fast way to punish. You can also throw it meaty in some knockdown situations.

So his zoning is, a little smidgeon better than ok. It's good, just not better than Fate, Deadshot, Arrow and Starfire. Other characters it's dependent on the range and how good your reads are.

Point is, it's super useful.

Joker has very poor neutral Game. He's got T-Rex range and no really good advancing moves. Things like f212 are so telegraphed that it's easy to react to since it doesn't really move forward at once.

If you like footsies don't play this character. You can win up close or far away at times but playing mid range is suicide.

That being said, you do have some options. Obviously Crowbar can be meter burned for armor and sometimes you might catch someone off guard but you can't rely on it.

Teeth can be punished at times but you can drop them in neutral against some characters to limit advances I'm thinking for like Bane and Grodd.

Joker's D2 is slow but the range ain't bad and you can special cancel it in a small window. So you can read block and be safe with Crowbar (against most)

Finally, his up close game is riddled with gaps. You might think you can 32 into special but you can't, you will get d2'ed by anyone that knows that match up. So lot's of 21, it's a mid string that's plus and you can cancel into neutral or special depending on whether you hit. There's also a gap there.

Because of his gaps you're gonna have to mb some f3's in there to get people to respect it.

You've got a pretty good sweep, it's not Scarecrow's but it's got solid range. Some players are gonna try and back dash everything you do, don't let them, gotta keep em honest. You can catch some with your jump ins. J3 has got great range and you can throw some teeth after it and put them on the defensive. J2 is a cross up one but it's got a junky hit box, if you don't have trait activated you're liable to whiff a lot instead you can use j1 which has a pretty good downward sloped hit box.

In the corner there are a bunch of different things you can do I've seen very few Joker players play the corner the same but the gist of it is knock em down and keep em down. Reset, teeth, reset teeth, armored f3, teeth into cross up, it depends on what character you're playing against. For some the corner can be a death sentence for others not so much. My advice is to go into practice and see for yourself what works against what wake ups.

But you can't keep the corner every game there are no legitimate midscreen set ups. One way or another they are all avoidable but that doesn't mean they aren't useful if you can condition your opponent to do the same escape each time you can use it to your advantage either by bettering position or punishing. 2 examples: one redhood player decided he was going to back dash every knock down teeth set up mid screen. You can catch that with a jump in or a well timed shot or in some places a crow bar, if they decide to delayed wake up you can start delaying teeth and going for ambiguous cross ups with teeth, if they want to wake up you can bait and punish or just stuff it with mb3 or f3. Point is, they make a decision and you make a read. Remember you can always do teeth into nothing, don't even move. Just watch what they decide to do and plan for it.

Your wake ups fucking suck. There's no two ways about it. Don't ever do crow bar because you will get stuffed. Parry gets beat by jump ins and lows and it can be stuffed. It's garbage and it's not even invincible and it doesn't work on cross up f3 moves which is super duper lame. Your options are block or make a serious hard read, I mean, like Cheetah players use f3 like it's going out of style because it's so good for her but a character with a low starter an overhead and a nasty jump in like Flash will maul you on wake up. So guess right. His greatest strength is also his greatest weakness.

This wasn't a super tech heavy outline but that's basically what you're doing.

P.S. Play like a goddamn lunatic, get into the character, make yourself unpredictable.

This write up was absolutely beautiful. Good shit

 

[Vengeance135]

i thought her hair whip is her wake up.....

also i saw u have joker beating aquaman, not sure how that works, aqua still has superior neutral.

He does for sure. However, joker really doesn't need to respect aquaman's tools unless aquaman is within b1 range or aquaman has joker cornered. Anywhere else, aquaman is at jokers mercy.

Gunshot punishes ftd and trident toss up to 3/4 the screen away.

Joker can whiff punish an advancing b12 with d2 cancel.

Joker can parry aquaman's ranged overheads fairly easy.

And it's joker can react pretty consistently to aquaman's jump ins with d2 or instant j1.

If you can navigate around water shield well, joker also beats aquaman in the corner.

Imo, joker aquaman has to play jokers game.

What do you think though? I could be missing something.

 

[Invincible Salads]

He does for sure. However, joker really doesn't need to respect aquaman's tools unless aquaman is within b1 range or aquaman has joker cornered. Anywhere else, aquaman is at jokers mercy.

Gunshot punishes ftd and trident toss up to 3/4 the screen away.

Joker can whiff punish an advancing b12 with d2 cancel.

Joker can parry aquaman's ranged overheads fairly easy.

And it's joker can react pretty consistently to aquaman's jump ins with d2 or instant j1.

If you can navigate around water shield well, joker also beats aquaman in the corner.

Imo, joker aquaman has to play jokers game.

What do you think though? I could be missing something.

seems like it becomes an issue once aquaman has the life lead tho, if he gets it joker has to chase him, a good aquaman should be able to play around jokers options like d2 or parry.

 

[Vengeance135]

seems like it becomes an issue once aquaman has the life lead tho, if he gets it joker has to chase him, a good aquaman should be able to play around jokers options like d2 or parry.

Imo even if aquaman has a health lead joker can back him into a corner. As long as joker stays in his d2 range and play a reactionary game, theres really nothing aquaman can safely do. Aquaman for sure has a better neutral but joker doesn't really need to take unnecessary risks for the most part. I may be missing some stuff though. Are you on ps4?

 

[Invincible Salads]

Imo even if aquaman has a health lead joker can back him into a corner. As long as joker stays in his d2 range and play a reactionary game, theres really nothing aquaman can safely do. Aquaman for sure has a better neutral but joker doesn't really need to take unnecessary risks for the most part. I may be missing some stuff though. Are you on ps4?

i am on ps4, add unknownOP-52. Thing is while your chasing him and trying to back him into the corner, good chance your going to eat trident rushes along the way, and if he throws you jokers gotta chase em back the other direction. if aquaman plays carefully still seems like it'd be hard due to jokers difficulty on opening people up.

 

[Vengeance135]

i am on ps4, add unknownOP-52. Thing is while your chasing him and trying to back him into the corner, good chance your going to eat trident rushes along the way, and if he throws you jokers gotta chase em back the other direction. if aquaman plays carefully still seems like it'd be hard due to jokers difficulty on opening people up.

Im going to add you sir. To safely get trident rush out, you want to at least confirm a string, rather on hit or block, to get it out. If joker stsys in his d2 range, it may be hard to get out a trident rush out while getting backed into the corner. I by no means think this mu is free for joker. I just think joker gas the advantage.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Im going to add you sir. To safely get trident rush out, you want to at least confirm a string, rather on hit or block, to get it out. If joker stsys in his d2 range, it may be hard to get out a trident rush out while getting backed into the corner. I by no means think this mu is free for joker. I just think joker gas the advantage.

also, something i started doing in any match where a character has to chase aquaman, i've started doing things like b3, or faking b3's in the neutral, the range on that is a good bit further than b1 and leaves him plus as well, also the hitbox is pretty stupid but i havent done that against many jokers yet so ill have to see.

i hope they make FTD not -24 tbh tho

 

[CrazyFingers]

I just wanna ask how Darkseid is zoning you when you have gun shot which whiff punishes omega beams?

 

[Vengeance135]

I just wanna ask how Darkseid is zoning you when you have gun shot which whiff punishes omega beams?

Gun shot whiff punishes omega beams at certain ranges yeah but Depending on the range, you have to immediately shoot gun after the beam flies over you or he can block the follow up gun shot. He can get away with omega beam blasting until 3/4 the screen away roughly maybe less. But with parademons out, he can zone a bit more safe and or go for a mix up.

Depending on what the darkseid does, joker has to respect it at most parts of the screen.

Trait is what makes his zone control strong vs joker overall.

 

[Vengeance135]

also, something i started doing in any match where a character has to chase aquaman, i've started doing things like b3, or faking b3's in the neutral, the range on that is a good bit further than b1 and leaves him plus as well, also the hitbox is pretty stupid but i havent done that against many jokers yet so ill have to see.

i hope they make FTD not -24 tbh tho

Yeah ftd should be a bit safer now tbh. Once i saw the no changes made to that on top of his nerfs, i immediately knew he was going to struggle lol