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POST-Starfire Joker MU Chart

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Phresh&Greedy

Noob
Just Gonna put my two cents in Bane is a 10-0 Joker I'm a high lvl player joker is my main but even a noob can use this strategy. Throw teeth close/mid and literally shoot hold block repeat. It's going to take extreme patience for bane to get in and if he charges it's a free combo. Fate depends on how you play I always get greedy but if I don't 6-4 joker. You can out zone fate and irritate him literally spam your pistol and meterburn then spam again never get close. Once he realizes you can out spam him 10/10 times they still don't give a shyt and spam until death I usually lose when I go for a single combo or try and get fancy. But I come to find out a fate player simply doesn't know what a combo is. So now I literally spam pistol until they rage quit or die. Need help with dead shot tho
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Phresh&Greedy said:
Just Gonna put my two cents in Bane is a 10-0 Joker I'm a high lvl player joker is my main but even a noob can use this strategy. Throw teeth close/mid and literally shoot hold block repeat. It's going to take extreme patience for bane to get in and if he charges it's a free combo. Fate depends on how you play I always get greedy but if I don't 6-4 joker. You can out zone fate and irritate him literally spam your pistol and meterburn then spam again never get close. Once he realizes you can out spam him 10/10 times they still don't give a shyt and spam until death I usually lose when I go for a single combo or try and get fancy. But I come to find out a fate player simply doesn't know what a combo is. So now I literally spam pistol until they rage quit or die. Need help with dead shot tho
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@BrianTheBEAST

I'm going to have him explain to you these MU's. At a high level, no bane going to sparingly charge at you to say the least and his armor goes through a wealth of jokers set ups and slow strings and once he knocks you down it's gg but brian will explain it best

As for fate, joker does not outzone him at all. Fates trait, ankhs, and ball placement on top of his fire ball and mb fire ball and his to decently fast gtfo me moves effectively keep joker out. Fates trait alone makes the damage unfavorable but again brian explains stuff better then me.
 
BrianTheBEAST

BrianTheBEAST

Banned
Phresh&Greedy said:
Just Gonna put my two cents in Bane is a 10-0 Joker I'm a high lvl player joker is my main but even a noob can use this strategy. Throw teeth close/mid and literally shoot hold block repeat. It's going to take extreme patience for bane to get in and if he charges it's a free combo. Fate depends on how you play I always get greedy but if I don't 6-4 joker. You can out zone fate and irritate him literally spam your pistol and meterburn then spam again never get close. Once he realizes you can out spam him 10/10 times they still don't give a shyt and spam until death I usually lose when I go for a single combo or try and get fancy. But I come to find out a fate player simply doesn't know what a combo is. So now I literally spam pistol until they rage quit or die. Need help with dead shot tho
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I see your point that Joker has options in both MU's. However, by no means does that outweigh the hefty advantages both Bane and Fate have over Joker.

Before I start, I wanted to point out that you're explanations make it seem as if you're not thinking about both characters playing at the highest level. For example, a good Bane will never full screen charge. And a good Fate wouldn't just spam mindlessly. And you take into an account that Fate players "simply doesn't know what a combo is." Points like these aren't valid to dictate a MU number. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to go in-depth on both MU's.

Bane: It really does not require that much patience for a Bane to get in. Yes, he shouldn't do full screen charge, cause that means we get a free combo, but a good Bane who actually knows the MU would never do that. Instead, he will duck gunshots and get a dash in to (very effectively) close the distance between the two. Once he gets in, it's hell for Joker. With his normals, armor, and specials combined, I'm sure Bane is effective against many characters, but it's even worse for Joker. As I have already addressed before in multiple threads, Joker's neutral is garbage. Bane's D1, D2, and Command throw shuts down Joker at footsie range. Once he gets the knockdown, it's very hard for Joker to get out because he has no wakeup. So we mostly rely on delayed wakeup or a lucky backdash. I find that delayed wakeup is also pretty useless because, after, let's say a command throw knockdown, Bane can do another command throw, D1, or D2. These all have good enough recovery so that, when Bane recognizes that Joker is doing delayed wakeup, he can still go for another mixup.

In summary: It's really not that difficult to get in as long as you don't rely on charges (so the whole teeth combo thing is pretty null if you actually have a good opponent). Bane footsies > Joker footsies. Only thing I'd say Bane would have to respect in neutral is our teeth throwing. Not going to downplay and say it's easy to avoid, but Bane has enough mobility and range in footsies to deal with some teeth throws. On knockdown, Bane destroys Joker. There's no way in the world that Joker's "zoning" makes up for the massive amounts of damage Bane can afflict on Joker knowing that he doesn't have a wakeup.

Fate: Joker DEFINITELY does not outright beat Fate in zoning. However, Joker can somewhat compete in the zoning war in hopes of getting closer (because he does not win zoning). A good Fate would not mindlessly spam. He will respect our gunshot and be patient for MB gunshot. From there, he has fireballs, orb, or aux to effectively keep out Joker. All of these tools favor Fate, and the uses of these tools will ultimately prove more effective than Joker's zoning tool, gun. Even when Joker does make his way in, Fate's F2 is super effective in footsies because Joker has nothing to compete with that. If Joker gets a combo in, it's not like it's super easy to just keep doing setup after setup either because Fate has a wakeup that puts us back at a far range. Granted, there are ways around it, but it's still a solid option if you combine that with delayed wakeup (which destroys all of Joker's setups).

Hope this helps depict the MU realistically in high-level gameplay. Comment again if you'd like to disagree or argue my points or just want some help in a MU :)
 
Kanalratte

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
he's right about one thing about dr. fate though. i saw high level players (woundcowboy, Lord pnut) who were only "shooting" the whole match without doing a combo. i know zoning is his strength but that is so boring to watch. and as joker you will for sure lose against dr fate the zoning war (top3 zoner imo along with deadshot and darkseid) and once you get in you have to make the right reads (wake up, his dash) but i dropped him anyway, maybe they change him for good after the patch.
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Kanalratte said:
he's right about one thing about dr. fate though. i saw high level players (woundcowboy, Lord pnut) who were only "shooting" the whole match without doing a combo. i know zoning is his strength but that is so boring to watch. and as joker you will for sure lose against dr fate the zoning war (top3 zoner imo along with deadshot and darkseid) and once you get in you have to make the right reads (wake up, his dash) but i dropped him anyway, maybe they change him for good after the patch.
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It's unfortunate they shat on joker again lol
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I dont think anyone here understands how good teeth are against Bane. Proactively dropping teeth not only builds constant meter for Joker giving him mb b3s or meter for combos everywhere on top of nullifying the threat of charge but it also breaks Banes armor when combined with any normal at the same time and also gets him out of command grab before he can slam you and punishes elbow on HIT. Yes Bane pummels him on knockdown if he gets a clean one without teeth out but this match up has not changed since 1. Its proactive teeth and meter building while Bane has to be patient and work his way around them. Bane also has to hold just about everything on debuff.

This is a 5-5 at worst
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Wetdoba said:
I dont think anyone here understands how good teeth are against Bane. Proactively dropping teeth not only builds constant meter for Joker giving him mb b3s or meter for combos everywhere on top of nullifying the threat of charge but it also breaks Banes armor when combined with any normal at the same time and also gets him out of command grab before he can slam you and punishes elbow on HIT. Yes Bane pummels him on knockdown if he gets a clean one without teeth out but this match up has not changed since 1. Its proactive teeth and meter building while Bane has to be patient and work his way around them. Bane also has to hold just about everything on debuff.

This is a 5-5 at worst
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This MU was actually worse for joker in injustice 1. But i seem to have a hard time explaining MU's so @BrianTheBEAST Can you please explain this good sir.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Vengeance135 said:
This MU was actually worse for joker in injustice 1. But i seem to have a hard time explaining MU's so @BrianTheBEAST Can you please explain this good sir.
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I just explained the match up. It hasnt changed since 1. Once a pair of teeth are out Joker is in control and Bane has to wait patiently right outside of teeth range for his opening. Once he gets that opening and knocks joker down then its party time. Both characters get their respective turns controlling the pace of the match. Its 5-5
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Wetdoba said:
I just explained the match up. It hasnt changed since 1. Once a pair of teeth are out Joker is in control and Bane has to wait patiently right outside of teeth range for his opening. Once he gets that opening and knocks joker down then its party time. Both characters get their respective turns controlling the pace of the match. Its 5-5
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I understand completely what you're saying bro but there's quite a few things you have to take into consideration:

Jokers teeth have a reactable start up and some time to recover, meaning you have time to throw out an armored move (most notably banes command grab) which will take the teeth pop and punish joker and boom, it's party time for bane.

While you are right, joker can in fact run away for a little bit of time, before being cornered by bane or knocked down, joker can't approach bane like he can other characters. Joker can't really bully bane on wake up UNLESS the Joker player is making all the right reads. One wrong read and joker is done for.

Jokers zone control has to be almost flawless to beat bane and that's the only real way joker can beat a bane if they know the Joker MU. Run away and punish banes mistakes.

If you have trouble vs jokers gun at far range duck and dash forward until you are in mid range. Banes dash is incredibly good and in 2 dashes joker will have to think about what he's doing next to not get cornered or knocked down.

Remember jokers offense isnt what gets him wins in this MU. It's his defense and the players ability to execute the opponents mistake.

I've played bane players that got a health lead on me and forced me to chase him down which was beyond difficult because joker doesn't have tools like that for this MU.

Banes armored moves are extremely effective vs jokers tool set and all it really takes is literally 1 knockdown and joker is most likely taking the L unless he guesses right. Even pushblock doesn't work against banes armored moves. Debuff is about the only time we can approach bane offensively but if you manage your trait properly, that won't be an issue for you.

Great stuff man!! If I didn't clarify enough I'm sure @BrianTheBEAST could explain things better.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Vengeance135 said:
I understand completely what you're saying bro but there's quite a few things you have to take into consideration:

Jokers teeth have a reactable start up and some time to recover, meaning you have time to throw out an armored move (most notably banes command grab) which will take the teeth pop and punish joker and boom, it's party time for bane.

While you are right, joker can in fact run away for a little bit of time, before being cornered by bane or knocked down, joker can't approach bane like he can other characters. Joker can't really bully bane on wake up UNLESS the Joker player is making all the right reads. One wrong read and joker is done for.

Jokers zone control has to be almost flawless to beat bane and that's the only real way joker can beat a bane if they know the Joker MU. Run away and punish banes mistakes.

If you have trouble vs jokers gun at far range duck and dash forward until you are in mid range. Banes dash is incredibly good and in 2 dashes joker will have to think about what he's doing next to not get cornered or knocked down.

Remember jokers offense isnt what gets him wins in this MU. It's his defense and the players ability to execute the opponents mistake.

I've played bane players that got a health lead on me and forced me to chase him down which was beyond difficult because joker doesn't have tools like that for this MU.

Banes armored moves are extremely effective vs jokers tool set and all it really takes is literally 1 knockdown and joker is most likely taking the L unless he guesses right. Even pushblock doesn't work against banes armored moves. Debuff is about the only time we can approach bane offensively but if you manage your trait properly, that won't be an issue for you.

Great stuff man!! If I didn't clarify enough I'm sure @BrianTheBEAST could explain things better.
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Um dude thats not how teeth work lol. If teeth are already out and exploding ("Bane can just armor through teeth") that means Joker is already freely moving around and can press any button that combined with teeth will break the armor. If Bane does go to punish Jokers recovery on throwing out teeth with command grab or elbow or any grounded button then the teeth explode afterwards and punish Bane on hit.

In terms of Bane on knockdown you can always bait them lol. Elbow and uppercut are -30 on block so thats a full combo punish when baited. Command grab will get full comboed by jumping. Alternatively you can do teeth with mb f3 to beat all 3(venomless none of his wake ups are invincible). All 3 of these are optioms from any safe teeth knockdown.
 
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Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Wetdoba said:
Um dude thats not how teeth work lol. If teeth are already out and exploding ("Bane can just armor through teeth") that means Joker is already freely moving around and can press any button that combined with teeth will break the armor. If Bane does go to punish Jokers recovery on throwing out teeth with command grab or elbow or any grounded button then the teeth explode afterwards and punish Bane on hit.

In terms of Bane on knockdown you can always bait them lol. Elbow and uppercut are -30 on block and command grab will get full comboed by jumping. Alternatively you can do teeth with instant air J2 to break the armor on all 3 (venomless none of his wake ups are invincible).
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Jokers j2 was heavily nerfed from injustice 1. It doesn't connect instantly like it did in injustice 1 and instant jump attacks hit as mid so that wouldn't break anything of you were blocking low.

What I was talking about is joker can't just throw teeth out while bane is in striking range and bane players that know the MU know that. Teeth are a great way to create space but up close, bane can punish teeth throws. That's what I was trying to say.

As far as banes wake up is concerned. Much like other characters in the Joker MU, delayed wake up is extremely effective vs jokers set ups. You literally just have to block once and push him back. If you wake up with a wake up that can easily be punished, any character can take advantage of it. Nonetheless, bane does have wake up options that need to be taken into consideration when joker is going to apply pressure while bane is knocked down. On the other hand, joker has no wake up options vs bane. Bane can stuff them all easily or avoid them all together. The only time joker has somewhat of an advantage is when he is running away trying to punish your mistakes, otherwise he's screwed.

I have this as a 4-6 MU banes favor strictly due to the fact that if joker can effectively zone bane out, he will win. But 1 mistake and he's screwed. There's no way a MU can be even if a character like joker has to play perfect defense to win, while bane literally needs 1 knock down and it's pretty much a wrap for joker. Great converaation by the way.

Also this is what another fellow joker player said about the MU in case you missed it.

Here's his write up:

Bane: It really does not require that much patience for a Bane to get in. Yes, he shouldn't do full screen charge, cause that means we get a free combo, but a good Bane who actually knows the MU would never do that. Instead, he will duck gunshots and get a dash in to (very effectively) close the distance between the two. Once he gets in, it's hell for Joker. With his normals, armor, and specials combined, I'm sure Bane is effective against many characters, but it's even worse for Joker. As I have already addressed before in multiple threads, Joker's neutral is garbage. Bane's D1, D2, and Command throw shuts down Joker at footsie range. Once he gets the knockdown, it's very hard for Joker to get out because he has no wakeup. So we mostly rely on delayed wakeup or a lucky backdash. I find that delayed wakeup is also pretty useless because, after, let's say a command throw knockdown, Bane can do another command throw, D1, or D2. These all have good enough recovery so that, when Bane recognizes that Joker is doing delayed wakeup, he can still go for another mixup.

In summary: It's really not that difficult to get in as long as you don't rely on charges (so the whole teeth combo thing is pretty null if you actually have a good opponent). Bane footsies > Joker footsies. Only thing I'd say Bane would have to respect in neutral is our teeth throwing. Not going to downplay and say it's easy to avoid, but Bane has enough mobility and range in footsies to deal with some teeth throws. On knockdown, Bane destroys Joker. There's no way in the world that Joker's "zoning" makes up for the massive amounts of damage Bane can afflict on Joker knowing that he doesn't have a wakeup.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Vengeance135 said:
Jokers j2 was heavily nerfed from injustice 1. It doesn't connect instantly like it did in injustice 1 and instant jump attacks hit as mid so that wouldn't break anything of you were blocking low.

What I was talking about is joker can't just throw teeth out while bane is in striking range and bane players that know the MU know that. Teeth are a great way to create space but up close, bane can punish teeth throws. That's what I was trying to say.

As far as banes wake up is concerned. Much like other characters in the Joker MU, delayed wake up is extremely effective vs jokers set ups. You literally just have to block once and push him back. If you wake up with a wake up that can easily be punished, any character can take advantage of it. Nonetheless, bane does have wake up options that need to be taken into consideration when joker is going to apply pressure while bane is knocked down. On the other hand, joker has no wake up options vs bane. Bane can stuff them all easily or avoid them all together. The only time joker has somewhat of an advantage is when he is running away trying to punish your mistakes, otherwise he's screwed.

I have this as a 4-6 MU banes favor strictly due to the fact that if joker can effectively zone bane out, he will win. But 1 mistake and he's screwed. There's no way a MU can be even if a character like joker has to play perfect defense to win, while bane literally needs 1 knock down and it's pretty much a wrap for joker. Great converaation by the way.

Also this is what another fellow joker player said about the MU in case you missed it.

Here's his write up:

Bane: It really does not require that much patience for a Bane to get in. Yes, he shouldn't do full screen charge, cause that means we get a free combo, but a good Bane who actually knows the MU would never do that. Instead, he will duck gunshots and get a dash in to (very effectively) close the distance between the two. Once he gets in, it's hell for Joker. With his normals, armor, and specials combined, I'm sure Bane is effective against many characters, but it's even worse for Joker. As I have already addressed before in multiple threads, Joker's neutral is garbage. Bane's D1, D2, and Command throw shuts down Joker at footsie range. Once he gets the knockdown, it's very hard for Joker to get out because he has no wakeup. So we mostly rely on delayed wakeup or a lucky backdash. I find that delayed wakeup is also pretty useless because, after, let's say a command throw knockdown, Bane can do another command throw, D1, or D2. These all have good enough recovery so that, when Bane recognizes that Joker is doing delayed wakeup, he can still go for another mixup.

In summary: It's really not that difficult to get in as long as you don't rely on charges (so the whole teeth combo thing is pretty null if you actually have a good opponent). Bane footsies > Joker footsies. Only thing I'd say Bane would have to respect in neutral is our teeth throwing. Not going to downplay and say it's easy to avoid, but Bane has enough mobility and range in footsies to deal with some teeth throws. On knockdown, Bane destroys Joker. There's no way in the world that Joker's "zoning" makes up for the massive amounts of damage Bane can afflict on Joker knowing that he doesn't have a wakeup.
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Ive read that response before I just disagree with it. You keep saying "if you know the match up" that joker cant do teeth and bane beats them for free but you dont even understand how bane interacts with teeth.

Your last post you said that bane can just armor through teeth and punish joker on recovery of teeth which is literally an impossible scenario. If bane is armoring through teeth that means that the teeth are exploding, and the teeth do not explode until well after joker has recovered (as you know moving around and doing stuff while teeth are exploding is the point of the character). So since joker is moving around freely, you cant just armor through teeth and punish him at the same time. What actually happens here is if bane tries to do an armored command grab at the same time as teeth are exploding joker presses any button at the same time for double hits that break armor. Teeth also do not count as a projectile so this is something bane has to respect at level 3 venom too.

Now, when you do go to punish joker for doing teeth in your face with command grab what happens is bane grabs joker during his recovery and then after that the teeth explode because they stay on hit and the explosion makes bane drop the joker before he slams him down and then jokker just tech rolls out and gets a safe raw teeth to create the space again. The initial grab only does 10 damage.

Now I know how Bane actually can punish close range teeth cleanly because Ive labbed this match up but its none of the ways you listed. Its button into mb b3 to absorb them for 2 bars or instant air forward j2 to the other side. This is an even match up and joker has what he needs to play the lame game. Teeth are jokers ice clone in this match up and bane has to deal with them. Your perception of the nuetral in this match up is based on scenarios that do not exist. Jokers fullscreen keep away is a non issue, its making it that last few feet pthrough teeth that is hard. Joker getting beat after Bane does knock him down cleanly though is not disputed.
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Wetdoba said:
Ive read that response before I just disagree with it. You keep saying "if you know the match up" that joker cant do teeth and bane beats them for free but you dont even understand how bane interacts with teeth.

Your last post you said that bane can just armor through teeth and punish joker on recovery of teeth which is literally an impossible scenario. If bane is armoring through teeth that means that the teeth are exploding, and the teeth do not explode until well after joker has recovered (as you know moving around and doing stuff while teeth are exploding is the point of the character). So since joker is moving around freely, you cant just armor through teeth and punish him at the same time. What actually happens here is if bane tries to do an armored command grab at the same time as teeth are exploding joker presses any button at the same time for double hits that break armor. Teeth also do not count as a projectile so this is something bane has to respect at level 3 venom too.

Now, when you do go to punish joker for doing teeth in your face with command grab what happens is bane grabs joker during his recovery and then after that the teeth explode because they stay on hit and the explosion makes bane drop the joker before he slams him down and then jokker just tech rolls out and gets a safe raw teeth to create the space again. The initial grab only does 10 damage.

Now I know how Bane actually can punish close range teeth cleanly because Ive labbed this match up but its none of the ways you listed. Its button into mb b3 to absorb them for 2 bars or instant air forward j2 to the other side. This is an even match up and joker has what he needs to play the lame game. Teeth are jokers ice clone in this match up and bane has to deal with them. Your perception of the nuetral in this match up is based on scenarios that do not exist. Jokers fullscreen keep away is a non issue, its making it that last few feet pthrough teeth that is hard. Joker getting beat after Bane does knock him down cleanly though is not disputed.
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Very Well said good sir, now my question os instead of doing a normal and bounce cancelling through teeth, why don't you normal into an armored move? That would still absorb the teeth pop and you will get the punish. This I've seen done to me which is what I have been trying to say.

Sorry, I'm awful at explaining things lol. Teeth go out, you d1 or throw a normal, depending on your range, to get ready to punish joker for throwing teeth out and you cancel to a special which the armor will take the teeth hit and you still get the pressure? Why don't you do that? I know it works because, like I said, I've seen this done on me.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Vengeance135 said:
Very Well said good sir, now my question os instead of doing a normal and bounce cancelling through teeth, why don't you normal into an armored move? That would still absorb the teeth pop and you will get the punish. This I've seen done to me which is what I have been trying to say.

Sorry, I'm awful at explaining things lol. Teeth go out, you d1 or throw a normal, depending on your range, to get ready to punish joker for throwing teeth out and you cancel to a special which the armor will take the teeth hit and you still get the pressure? Why don't you do that? I know it works because, like I said, I've seen this done on me.
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The mb b3 is not used for whiff punishing its used for when he just does them on block point blank. The only whiff punish bane has for raw teeth is the d1. His other buttons dont have the range. D1 doesnt connect into mb b3 on hit, and doesnt connect into uppercut unless point blank. D1 into elbow is his go to punish but that is quick enough that he is actually true punishing joker with the d1 then he just lands back on the teeth with the elbow. Button into command grab would only work as a tick on block which makes it not a true punish. The best true punish is instant forward j2 that has to be perfectly timed because if it doesnt true punish then joker gets a trip guard punish if he blocks it.
 
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