yeah, I think ken on paper is not a top tier character a ton of his tools are unsafe or just have terrible frames in general. A lot of his strengths come from extra input delay and his unique hitstop frames.
I agree and said Chuns IA legs are the only "broken" tool in this game imo, but I do think an extra 4 frames to react to them would help a lot.
As for ryu I don't understand, he's one of my favorite characters to fight against and imo the closest thing in the game to an og street fighter character. High damage, good balance of risk/reward, a solid(but not overpowering) neutral game, and powerful(but straightforward) mixups. He doesn't have a lot of flash, but I'll never get tired of seeing solid ryu play, And from what I've seen/heard he seems to be falling on the tier list without even getting nerfed. I don't like to assume things but I'm gonna assume you don't play ryu, cause it's already plenty terrifying throwing fireballs with him without an extra 5 frames of recovery. Thatd make them punishable on reaction by pretty much every member of the cast. They've already got 32+ frames of recovery plus a 12+ frame startup. Adding 5 frames more would literally make it a 50 frame move. Honestly the more characters I play the more I hate how hard ryu has to work(except with jab aas and +12 on block sweep cancels, I think those should go and he'd be fine).
Well, you're right, I dont play Ryu, but I play against the army of them. A Ryu that knows what he's doing can fireball with utter impunity, again, this may be all related to the inherent delay built in, but I frequently jump over a fireball on a read (not a crazy, I'm in the air before he's input it read, but expecting a fireball and jump as soon as I see him start moving kinda read) and I eat DPs, or jumping MP into whatever he feels like doing... And Im talking poorly spaced fireballs that again, I have a read on and I have proper distance to punish. I fully agree that I shouldnt be able to full combo punish correctly spaced and used fireballs.
I do agree that a well played Ryu is a pleasure to watch. He's so damn crispy and clean when used right.. but my issue stems from what he does well - which is absolutely everything. He has very competent full screen zoning. A two bar vtrigger that acts as a general steroid. Super good normals for any 'typical' melee range (he's no claw-on vega or Sim or Birdy, but he does work at decent range). 3f button(s? - is it just st.jab?). Top tier damage off of *anything* he touches you with. Excellent CA for a number of reasons. Isnt meter reliant so he can use it at his leisure to convert in to more damage ( st.lk into ex tatsu as a quick example) or store it up so he has CA on deck, as mentioned, a really good CA. Parry (I dont see it used much, but its still there and still an option). Great AA options. Great air to air control with air tatsu and j.mp (which can lead to MOAR DAMAGE). Two crossups, one of which is notoriously difficult to AA which makes him an absolute bastard vs weak AA characters. Excellent DPs that can be canceled. He can set up and unblockable (well, guard break). As you mentioned +8992837333333333333 cancel. Solid meaty game with nice, active buttons making it so you dont have to be ultra tight to get mileage out of them (I think about everyone in V has a good meaty game, but still, its an option so Im listing it). A stubby but fast forward dash that's a monster of a tool when used by a pro for mobility and such. Tolerable walk speed, its not Vega and Chun but its not hindrance in any way I feel) Etc. Im sure Im forgetting something, but its 430am and Im tired.
I dont think Ryu's damage is OP. Or his tools. Or his options. Or his screen control (Which is essentially all the screen - seriously.). I just think its a culmination of everything that makes him really good... and I'll take your word for him dropping in tier lists, but everything Ive seen about him, at least from the pro side of things, still has him top 5, and I see him frequently listed as top 3 - which I agree with personally. He has absolutely everything the game has to give - I dont see how he could be anything but really really good. And really, aside from the cancel you mentioned, my fireball idea is a wishlist item that would be nice, but not required, if his damage was toned down either across the board a very small amount, or maybe toned down a larger amount, but built in to his scaling some how where some things still HURT. I feel like thematically when Ryu punishes you, it should hurt like hell. If he gets a jump in or CC, it should hurt like hell, but maybe a little less pain off stray hits in the neutral. Something like that.
By removing the frame delay though, I dont know, maybe that would help matters across the board and tier lists would shake out very differently, but I think, with the exception of *maybe* Ken, we'd see about the same placements, except Birdy and Alex, I think they'd fall. Possibly Sim too, as some of his shenanigans would be easier to react to possibly, but I dont know for sure, I dont know any really *good* Sims to have experience in the MU.
I dont want you, or anyone, to think Im nerf-mongering and trying to break other peoples characters.. And like I said, in a perfect world, with a handful of small, specific exceptions, id prefer buffs rather than nerfs any day, that way no one gets left in the cold. The strong stay strong and the weak(ish) get a chance to make a case for themselves - I just dont trust/believe Capcom will go that route because there is a lot more work involved in buffing numerous characters and not overdoing it, than there is on clipping a couple wings.
I mean, if we are talking buffs, someone give Vega a real reversal so I can be top tier =[ lol.
And just so you know my perspective (as far as who I play, it kinda helps to see the angle I see the game from). I main Vega, Necalli is probably my best character though (another character I could see getting adjusted, though I honestly dont know exactly what, he's a Ryu-ish character to me.. Its not that any one thing is super OP, its just that he has just about everything. Pulling back his damage maybe? But that doesnt fit thematically, Necalli just screams damage, so I dunno.. Dash adjustments?). I try to play Ibuki and Juri on occasion too but Im too bad to make them work. They are also bad, so that doesnt help matters. For the time being, I am totally focusing on Vega. When the game first dropped I co-mained Nash and Ken, but that was months ago and I dropped V not long after release due to RL crap.
