What's new

General/Other - Hat Trick Kung Lao Hat Trick Variation General Discussion

Roko1985

Put down the controller and run!
If they wakeup with my hat on their back they're risking getting a more damaging punish.

Everyone is conditioned to not wakeup once you cancel B321 into hat trap or low hat trap, this usually sets up for free pressure.

Kung Lao has slow normals with weird hitboxes, stagger with him aside from F2, and B32 isn't much of a thing.
F2 as stagger is not that great! A good player will backlash most of the time because of the gap before the 3. F21 cancelled into anything on block most characters can punish. Do you have an American or European PSN.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Who said anything about doing blockstrings with B321 into hat trap?
b321 is a untechable knockdown, i used it to end my combos with over 21 because it allows to cancel into hat trap right away, they can't tech roll the knockdown and are forced to stand with the had behind them, a good player will weight if its worth it to wakeup attack after the knockdown or if just block and let me build meter, which is what i'm aiming for.

F2 is the stagger, not f21 which is pretty minus unless you have a hat out.

I have an european psn but doesn't mean my internet is doable for online play, besides, my psn subscription has ended recently anyway, its not by playing online that points will be proven.

Hat trick only blockstring is (Hat out) 112124~ex call back~11212, anything else is a gimmick.
add me, my psn name is in there.
 

Roko1985

Put down the controller and run!
I use B321 knock down mostly mid screen! In the corner 112124 low hat is my ender. You have the same options like the B321, but you do more damage! B321 cuts your damage a lot in the corner. I don't want to fight you, just to show what I mean, because I don't think you really understand what I am trying to explain! I will give you an example: you land B321 in the corner, cancel into spin, deep NJP, Low Hat out, D2, MB Thorow back to the corner. Now from here s4 is guaranteed , so s44 or s4 Low Hat call is a good mix up! There are hole yes, but your opponent must be on point. Tech the Throw is the biggest problem. Armor after the s4 is not that easy as people think. I met a very good opponent online who started teching those Throws, so I started MB direction out from the corner then short run jump over into JIP into something. I am not saying that B321 is not good mid screen. I am just trying to explain that in the corner you have other options too. Maybe is just me, but I don't like blocking with Hat Trick.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
112124~low hat is tech rollable though, that's an unnecessarily risky gimmick to be honest.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I will go into this in details, not trying to be a dick or anything, just going to share my point of view on why i think this is a bad idea.

I use B321 knock down mostly mid screen! In the corner 112124 low hat is my ender. You have the same options like the B321, but you do more damage! B321 cuts your damage a lot in the corner. I don't want to fight you, just to show what I mean, because I don't think you really understand what I am trying to explain! I will give you an example: you land B321 in the corner, cancel into spin, deep NJP, Low Hat out, D2, MB Thorow back to the corner. Now from here s4 is guaranteed , so s44 or s4 Low Hat call is a good mix up! There are hole yes, but your opponent must be on point. Tech the Throw is the biggest problem. Armor after the s4 is not that easy as people think. I met a very good opponent online who started teching those Throws, so I started MB direction out from the corner then short run jump over into JIP into something. I am not saying that B321 is not good mid screen. I am just trying to explain that in the corner you have other options too. Maybe is just me, but I don't like blocking with Hat Trick.
you land B321 in the corner, cancel into spin, deep NJP, Low Hat out
Okay, so you land a combo by making it look cooler with the low hat out, this should setup a 50-50 mixup on wakeup right? I can only hit B3 on inside confirmed combos, never as starter tho.

D2, MB Thorow back to the corner.
Okay, this is where i start to disagree with is, you gain corner position, cool, you gain a restand, cool, but you've wasted your meter, i will get there why, just let me go through the whole picture.

D2, MB Thorow back to the corner.
No its not, its blockable, its a 15 frame high, doesn't present a real mixup threat that its justifiable to spent meter on mb throw to try it.

so s44 or s4 Low Hat call is a good mix up!
Just to give you the heads up, @Youphemism, @I GOT HANDS, @The Big Pampering, @ROG Moonspell, @Just2Swift, myself and a few hat tricks were into this as well, and no, sorry to tell you this, its not a good mixup, and it gets worse when its blocked, because low hat is still -7 at blast radius, on a KL mirror he would just ex spin for a reversal punish, that bar you have spent for a restand, you could've spend here but more into this soon, you've already talked about the gap so no point on remind you that a good player as you said yourself will be on point recodnizing that pattern, and its not even that difficult since the timing isn't that ambiguous in between call back and 44.


So here is why i disagree with this.

1. Hat Trick is a variation in XL that doesn't build as much meter as it used to do, point in case, his neutral got a bit crippled with the new breaker system, when you get into someone, if they break, you can't go back right in and take advantage of their lack of meter to apply pressure and open your opponents with mixup, these are dead since XL, now not only your opponent will break to escape your lockdown, now he gets to have stamina and probably meter too when stamina returns for both players

2. Hat Trick loses his overhead starter over a low starter when he places low trap, which is his only mixup trap, so there is no real oh/low mixup game there, 44 and 4~low call back aren't as threatening as sonya b142 mixups for example or kung jin F24 and B14 mixups, trust me, we've been into this before.

3. your best option when you land a combo with spin that is carrying to corner is, jk~dk, b321~low hat trap, this sets up a real oh/low mixup since its a hard knockdown with no tech rolling, where the low option is -7 but can come out meaty, problem is if the opponent wakeup as you call the hat back, if its 9f startup it will hit you before blocking, the F4 its his real overhead option when hatless, which can be used when the low hat is preset on the screen, it only adds a knockdown, and when blocked is -13, so if your opponent is risking to TRY to block those two moves, hes is likely to not wakeup at all, if you're playing safe, you will take advantage of the hat to apply free pressure like d4 call back, free throws instead of risking the overhead going mostly for the low 90% of the time and apply free staggers because the hat will condition them to not press buttons right away as they might get caught by you canceling your strings into it, it adds a sort of mental pressure.

Hat trick game is based on how people defend when they block ex call back right after, you can either:
d4~hat trap = works when they block standing to avoid B2~hatarang, it doesn't lead to much if not more pressure with a free call back, as long as you have meter you can keep loop it into itself for more pressure while trying to open them up.
b2~hatarang = which combos for people trying to block d4~hat trap

the rest of the things you can do like 11212~hat trap, or b2~hat trap, or choose which part of a stagger you want to cancel hat trap from is just a bonus, but many of these options become inconsistent as hell when your hat trap hits and can either hit standing character for trying to input armor or mash normals, or hit them crouching for solely the same reason.

There were threads we talked about this, in some cases, away hat trap into ex tp throw has proven to be more usefull although is just as gimmicky but still better than 4~low hat call back, 44 mixup.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Its topical for new comers. Roko won't last long around Hattrick. We've been through this for months. I lost life time around this character. He is fun but unreliable. There is no point getting deeper into this.
 

Roko1985

Put down the controller and run!
Its topical for new comers. Roko won't last long around Hattrick. We've been through this for months. I lost life time around this character. He is fun but unreliable. There is no point getting deeper into this.
I know that Hat Trick is not top tier, but I truly believe that he does better in many MUs that Tempest loses. I personally find him the most fun character and variation to use in this game.
 

Roko1985

Put down the controller and run!
I will go into this in details, not trying to be a dick or anything, just going to share my point of view on why i think this is a bad idea.
Thanks for your answer man. I used him just for 2 weeks and I have a lot of success with him. I studied his frame data confirms, watch everything you can find on YouTube and spend time in practice mode. A lot of the stuff I read and watch is not optimized. That includes even some of your videos. I know they are before the patch, but still.... A simple example is people not able to hit confirm 11212 into full combo 100% of the time. Or landing spin mid screen and not do J1 before JK, DK. One thing I didn't yet tested , but I believe that if you have the hat out and you do 112124 Ex hat call, it will not jail into standing 1 if they block crouching. The 1 whiffs. I am gonna test it tomorrow to be sure. I respect your opinion and I will give it a try couple of weeks more and see if I change my mind about this variation. I love it so far!
 

Lokheit

Warrior
I haven't been part of the Hat Trick discussion and I don't know if this has been brought up before, but anyway: Do you think it would help with all the inconsistency issues if call back on hit had a effect similar to Kitana's fans on airborne opponents (or Buzzsaw's hat) so it it connects you're basically guaranteed the followup? Maybe (probably?) this has been talked about before but I wanted to know what people think about the possibility and at what position it would leave the variation if no other changes were made.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Thanks for your answer man. I used him just for 2 weeks and I have a lot of success with him. I studied his frame data confirms, watch everything you can find on YouTube and spend time in practice mode. A lot of the stuff I read and watch is not optimized. That includes even some of your videos. I know they are before the patch, but still.... A simple example is people not able to hit confirm 11212 into full combo 100% of the time. Or landing spin mid screen and not do J1 before JK, DK. One thing I didn't yet tested , but I believe that if you have the hat out and you do 112124 Ex hat call, it will not jail into standing 1 if they block crouching. The 1 whiffs. I am gonna test it tomorrow to be sure. I respect your opinion and I will give it a try couple of weeks more and see if I change my mind about this variation. I love it so far!
No problem man, but there is a reason you see a lot of people not landing spin midscreen and confirm 11212 into full combo 100% of the time, its part of his core issue
Kung Lao has very short limbs with very short hitboxes, sometimes they are just far enough out when they block 11212, the plinking part of the string (212) has very short hitbox, as result the last hit of this string may or may not connect when they block, so if you try to cancel with spin or HCB, if the hitbox whiffs the target nothing will come out afterwards, its not a drop, you will have to deal with these soon enough.

ex call back may not jail if you do s1 without run cancel it, but that's where the game is, if someone crouch blocks after call back to avoid s1, you can just use B2~ hatarang and open them up for a full combo.

and @ROG Moonspell has refered before, we've been through all this for months, when we were new to the variation we also though it was this good, but then we started to see his real issues, you will get there soon enough, just keep playing, or try to seek someone who has HT MU experience.

But we agree with you, Hat Trick is one of the most fun variations in the entire MKX, sadly his tools doesn't work as its supposed to.

I haven't been part of the Hat Trick discussion and I don't know if this has been brought up before, but anyway: Do you think it would help with all the inconsistency issues if call back on hit had a effect similar to Kitana's fans on airborne opponents (or Buzzsaw's hat) so it it connects you're basically guaranteed the followup? Maybe (probably?) this has been talked about before but I wanted to know what people think about the possibility and at what position it would leave the variation if no other changes were made.
It would fix part of his juggle inconsistency only, but his main issues would still be very evident since its part of his core, the reason why we complain so much its not only due the juggle inconsistency, its how poorly his core game doesn't fit MKXL that well without drastic changes.

for example: his neutral game is one of the worse, whenever he cancels any blockstring into hat trap he is very minus on block, and his most trust worthy option is to block afterwards, can't jump because he can get stuffed out, can't backdash because its pretty slow, very slow walkspeed, very unreliable and just as jumping can be stuffed out, can't poke out because all his pokes and normals are all slow. Jump back into divekick its the only available option, but as you noticed its way too yolo.

A raw call back is -7, anyone can poke out right after, you are forced to deal with it, on KL mirrors this tool becomes obsolete, he can reversal punish you for using it.

then it comes the away hat trap, which cannot be comboed from, on any range, same as above trap who doesn't hit anything or anyone because of the spot where the hat is placed and its tragectory. Against teleport characters, your hat trap becomes away hat trap almost everytime, since KL cannot combo with the hat behind him it nullifies the purpose of the variation, he becomes hatless moving forward and while hatless his options are very limited since he loses anything related to his hat, including spin, overheads and other moves proprieties and usage, in short you're forced to play variationless Lao most of the time.
 

Roko1985

Put down the controller and run!
No problem man, but there is a reason you see a lot of people not landing spin midscreen and confirm 11212 into full combo 100% of the time, its part of his core issue
Kung Lao has very short limbs with very short hitboxes, sometimes they are just far enough out when they block 11212, the plinking part of the string (212) has very short hitbox, as result the last hit of this string may or may not connect when they block, so if you try to cancel with spin or HCB, if the hitbox whiffs the target nothing will come out afterwards, its not a drop, you will have to deal with these soon enough.
I have zero problem with 11212 confirming into whatever I want 100% of the time! The only problem I find is that even after J2 on hit 11212 spin, the spin will sometime whiff , not connecting and I eat full punish. And I do the J2 close, not from max range! The same 11212 point blank. Sometime the spin will not combo! It is just stupid. I am forced to use 112124 Ex hatarang instead.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Thoughts on Kung Lao/ hat trick fixes?
I believe they chose an easy path. But let me first point out the pros.

1. Teleport is great as its faster. Even though it was two hits of armor once KL is on the other side armor is gone and s1 fucks him over.

2. The Gravity is better, over all links seem to have much more frame window. Also cause of that his damage if raw hats has slightly increased

3. female hitboxes can not duck neutral under the mid hat.




However I dont see much of a change in the speed of the hat, as long as its not plus only those do dont know the MU will allow for hat traps. Thanks my thoughts after an hour play.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I may have a lot for you guys regardless traps but i will go into detail afterwards tomorrow only or sunday, since i have a tournament this saturday, my whole next days will be spending training.

First of all, add B12 in your new core play in both stances, either hat or hatless.

its practically your fastest answer to any character trying to press mids to cut you off out of a trap, unless they d1 after every trap b12~call back will be a very strong momentum killer.

pay atention that now you have b12,2+4 being -3, f21 being -3 and f21~d1 when in default stance being -7, those are now your main pressure tools on default stance and you should abuse it, since they're mostly waiting for the trap thos will likely hit or stagger for a free trap into B12 when they realize is too late.

the only weak point about it is that all armors now are 2 hits, so we can't break armor anymore with d4~call backs and so on.

more to come with more data.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Messing about in the corner, I'm getting 34% meterless from B22 starter with a 21 ender now with:

B22~hat trap, D1, 4~callback, 4~spin, jk~dk, 21


and from F23 I'm getting 32% meterless with

F23~spin, 4~hat trap, D1, B12~callback, jump back kick~dk, 21



That sound about right?
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Yeah. My Max corner is 46℅ into 1121 ender with one bar but to get that you need to hit the 44 starter into straight mid hat call back or up hat. The over all damage is fine and I think it's never been the issue. We got better midscreen overall, that's the improvement there and consistency.
 
Last edited:

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Messing about in the corner, I'm getting 34% meterless from B22 starter with a 21 ender now with:

B22~hat trap, D1, 4~callback, 4~spin, jk~dk, 21


and from F23 I'm getting 32% meterless with

F23~spin, 4~hat trap, D1, B12~callback, jump back kick~dk, 21



That sound about right?
Messing about in the corner, I'm getting 34% meterless from B22 starter with a 21 ender now with:

B22~hat trap, D1, 4~callback, 4~spin, jk~dk, 21


and from F23 I'm getting 32% meterless with

F23~spin, 4~hat trap, D1, B12~callback, jump back kick~dk, 21



That sound about right?
B321~spin, hat trap, b12~call back, jump back jk, dk, b12,2+4
44, b12, b12~spin, jk dk, 21
44, 12~spin, hat trap, b12~call back, jump back jk, dk, b12,2+4
 

DR.Innuendo

Kitana, Kenshi, Triborg
what combos are people coming up with DB2 hat? I'm experimenting with Traps to stop Teleports and limit options and in tandem applying pressure while taking away those options. what have others come up with? this combo is not optimal just and idea, of the concept:

Obviously, can be ended differently and more damage can be achieved.

also have others been having problems with 11212 connecting fully and not creating gaps in it? this is a big problem i have run across. and Scorpion can punish almost every hat trap setup, Damn him.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Probably Kounter Reads, i was testing, it seems Lao got a lot of Armor vs Armor Oki setups and anti-reversal setups, something to look further on, this variation is too juicy now.
Indeed, there is a lot to look for now.

what combos are people coming up with DB2 hat? I'm experimenting with Traps to stop Teleports and limit options and in tandem applying pressure while taking away those options. what have others come up with? this combo is not optimal just and idea, of the concept:

Obviously, can be ended differently and more damage can be achieved.


also have others been having problems with 11212 connecting fully and not creating gaps in it? this is a big problem i have run across. and Scorpion can punish almost every hat trap setup, Damn him.
I prefer to use reverse hat after f12 because of the screen moving forward opponent does not see what hight is the hat placed.