General/Other - Johnny Cage Save Cage, hotfix ideas

[Wigy]

I don't think Cage sucks at all. I just said his defense is bad; which it is.

Still love cage.

Im going to play him either way, however theres just no reason to pick him over certain characters now IMO.

His defence is weak but not the worst.

 

[stamatis]

Settle down Francis!! Come into a JC forum and start acting tough behind a keyboard SMH. "Idiot" what're you 5? Grow up.

I am not 5 as you can see in my profile,but stuff like "you got caged once or twice" when Johnny was broken as fuck,triggers me.
You provoke other people and then you play it cool.Maybe you should check your age.

 

[Dizzy]

Could you tell me what combos you use that use that are not possible using the block timing now?

The only one that affected me (not counting just getting used to the new timing) was 113 skrc f24. I mostly phased that out anyway as I originally used it as a gimmick against those unfamiliar with the MU with it being low into overhead, but it has a pretty big gap. I found 113 skrc f3 to be better as the gap is smaller on block and makes their timing an interrupt tighter. And if you want to go into more optimal damage I started incorporating 113 skrc 12 skrc f4 f24 d1 f3 np which works pretty well once you get the 12 skdc f4 link down.

The combos off f3 and 12 seemed to be fine for me as the hitstun is pretty massive.

 

[ShArp]

tremor, tanya all get to run cancel twice

You are wrong. Pre-patch Tremor could do two EX DB2 RC in a row, now, like others, he can do one. Unless you are talking about DB1 cancel which is not a run cancel.

 

[Asodimazze]

Could you tell me what combos you use that use that are not possible using the block timing now?

The only one that affected me (not counting just getting used to the new timing) was 113 skrc f24. I mostly phased that out anyway as I originally used it as a gimmick against those unfamiliar with the MU with it being low into overhead, but it has a pretty big gap. I found 113 skrc f3 to be better as the gap is smaller on block and makes their timing an interrupt tighter. And if you want to go into more optimal damage I started incorporating 113 skrc 12 skrc f4 f24 d1 f3 np which works pretty well once you get the 12 skdc f4 link down.

The combos off f3 and 12 seemed to be fine for me as the hitstun is pretty massive.

f3 dash cancel combos don't look possible to me with a 5f delay, same for f2skrc into f3,f2/ s4skrc f3,f2/ f24skrc into anything, 333skrc into anything, 21skrc into f2, f3 and some others.

Being forced to delay every cancel on purpose is not how we should play the game anyway, imho. NRS still has time to fix the execution how it was before and keep the nerfs

 

[Tweedy]

because lao can't run in right now and f2 like a lunatic and get pressure hmmmmm
obviously not as good as what cage could do but this mentality doesn't justify what they did to run cancels because run cancel characters already had to worry more about spacing more than other types of characters because of stamina before this shit

That's exactly what Cage can do now. Lao can't and never was able to run in and pressure someone on block with run cancels. He has to spend bar to be plus, just like Cage does.

 

[SaSSolino]

because lao can't run in right now and f2 like a lunatic and get pressure hmmmmm
obviously not as good as what cage could do but this mentality doesn't justify what they did to run cancels because run cancel characters already had to worry more about spacing more than other types of characters because of stamina before this shit

what is it with TYM and commas lately? fucking use them!

 

[Dizzy]

f3 dash cancel combos don't look possible to me with a 5f delay, same for f2skrc into f3,f2/ s4skrc f3,f2/ f24skrc into anything, 333skrc into anything, 21skrc into f2, f3 and some others.

Being forced to delay every cancel on purpose is not how we should play the game anyway, imho. NRS still has time to fix the execution how it was before and keep the nerfs

You can still do any dash cancel combo you could pre-patch. They weren't touched at all. You can still link stand 1 after F3 dash cancel.

The hit advantage was left the same precisely so you could still use his dash cancels for combos. This allows Cage to perform his unique double cancel combos as well.

The hit cancel for dashes remaining the same was not a bug.

 

[llabslb]

You can still do any dash cancel combo you could pre-patch. They weren't touched at all. You can still link stand 1 after F3 dash cancel.

The hit advantage was left the same precisely so you could still use his dash cancels for combos. This allows Cage to perform his unique double cancel combos as well.

The hit cancel for dashes remaining the same was not a bug.

They're very much possible its just that the timing on block and hit are now so different. It's the transition from using the timing for blocked cancels and cancels on hit that makes comboing your opponent when you open them up incredibly awkward. If I were to use the timing required for blocked cancels and my opponent stopped blocking, my cancel won't come out on hit.

 

[Asodimazze]

You can still do any dash cancel combo you could pre-patch. They weren't touched at all. You can still link stand 1 after F3 dash cancel.

The hit advantage was left the same precisely so you could still use his dash cancels for combos. This allows Cage to perform his unique double cancel combos as well.

The hit cancel for dashes remaining the same was not a bug.

I don't think you got my point : if I delay on purpose every cancel I do by 5 frames (not knowing if my move will go on hit or on block) I can't get all the combos I listed.

Of course I can do them if I know for sure I'm going to hit, but performing the cancel fast will backfire when the opponent blocks because in that case no cancel would come out (because of the 5f delay).

And there is no way to know if the opponent will block or not when you got to perform the cancel after a single hit.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I just...this character has so much more and we're complaining about a universal change that every run cancel character got (the increased delay frames on block for run canceling) and fucking mid armor? What do you think you're special? That A-List shouldn't have the delay frames? Is that it? Guess what, you're not, deal with it. Also, you know who doesn't have mid armor and is still perfectly fine? Slasher. You don't need mid armor to be good, stop relying on armor so much and maybe you'll realize that (this is an assumption by me. If you're complaining about your armor being crouched and you're being punished for that, and that complaining becomes so intense that you're saying it is actively hurting the character, clearly you don't understand that just mashing armor out of stressful situations isn't how this game works.) people have to stop with these hotfix threads before people like me start having aneurisms.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't think you got my point : if I delay on purpose every cancel I do by 5 frames (not knowing if my move will go on hit or on block) I can't get all the combos I listed.

Of course I can do them if I know for sure I'm going to hit, but performing the cancel fast will backfire when the opponent blocks because in that case no cancel would come out (because of the 5f delay).

And there is no way to know if the opponent will block or not when you got to perform the cancel after a single hit.

I'm well aware of what you're saying. I am saying if the hit advantage was changed, you still wouldn't be able to do the dash cancel combos anymore.

Run cancels were purposely toned down in this patch. An expected outcome of this is your gameplan using run cancels changing.

I am saying, in my personal experience, my gameplan would be based around using cancels that combo on hit with the new timing for block, unless you are using them in a punish scenario.

However, your feedback is noted.

 

[Asodimazze]

This short video should sum up what I mean when talking about inconsistencies:

It's true that a slightly different timing when going on hit or on block applies to every character in the game, but with A-List the difference becomes unbearable due to the recently added 5f and the fact that he has to cancel skrc out of a single hit string most of the time. It's a huge problem.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

There is absolutely 0 reason why exflipkick should not have armor. It's so stupid to see people neutral crouching or mashing poke next to Cage when he's on the ground because his only armor is a high.
The double bar for exnutpunch as Asodimazze says makes sense, would be like an extension of how nutpunch worked in A-List.

this is where you need to improve your oki game. if they know your only armour is a high attack then wake up with your overhead starter and thats a free combo. Your armour is too fast to break so they have to either try to neutral crouch it or pressure you on wakeup. alternatively you could wakeup d4, wake up NJP, wake up cross over, midscreen you could wakeup backdash or jump back. You are not limited to special moves on wakeup. I found this with warlock in the previous version of the game. people just block low and i dont get my scoop wakeup so i make it a guess for them. do the same

i just gave you an option of either armoured wake up, throw, overhead, jump....thats what...a 4 way guess for them? seems like some pretty good wakeup options to me. Dont need to mash one guaranteed special move to get off the ground..

 

[SaSSolino]

this is where you need to improve your oki game. if they know your only armour is a high attack then wake up with your overhead starter and thats a free combo. Your armour is too fast to break so they have to either try to neutral crouch it or pressure you on wakeup. alternatively you could wakeup d4, wake up NJP, wake up cross over, midscreen you could wakeup backdash or jump back. You are not limited to special moves on wakeup. I found this with warlock in the previous version of the game. people just block low and i dont get my scoop wakeup so i make it a guess for them. do the same

i just gave you an option of either armoured wake up, throw, overhead, jump....thats what...a 4 way guess for them? seems like some pretty good wakeup options to me. Dont need to mash one guaranteed special move to get off the ground..

ye, damn wakeup tech rolls need a nerf almost as bad as jumps.

 

[Zionix]

Well you could also look at it this way, like you said he has a 7f poke, so he's not the worst defense wise. If people are just ducking under the shadow kick that gets you your turn back if you block their d4s.


Sorry but this is wrong, Cage has more options to condition throw than Lao does, do you know what the other option is rather than jailing? Throw. But NO Cage players throw nearly enough. You have a move that near enough guarantees a throw attempt every single time, and all you lot wanna do is block strings.

Not even applying his offense correctly, just trying to be flashy most of the time.

You can duck and full combo punish SK during recovery frames.

D4 is still amazing.

I have found it Infinitely easier to throw people in this patch than before. I really cant be bothered to write it out, but cage didn't have a staggerable mid and in mash xl that is what is needed to condition blocking to set up throws.

I tried to do, i talked to you before it made sense for cage to be a throwing machine but i couldn't make it work and i haven't seen anyone make it happen.

Fisticuffs has a 10frame mid which is stagger able and can be continued to stop people disrespecting pressure by mashing out. I can throw so much easier than i ever could as a list.

With the changes to a list f3 is plus 12 after skrc so you wont need to delay the throw as much anymore.

 

[Asodimazze]

this is where you need to improve your oki game. if they know your only armour is a high attack then wake up with your overhead starter and thats a free combo. Your armour is too fast to break so they have to either try to neutral crouch it or pressure you on wakeup. alternatively you could wakeup d4, wake up NJP, wake up cross over, midscreen you could wakeup backdash or jump back. You are not limited to special moves on wakeup. I found this with warlock in the previous version of the game. people just block low and i dont get my scoop wakeup so i make it a guess for them. do the same

i just gave you an option of either armoured wake up, throw, overhead, jump....thats what...a 4 way guess for them? seems like some pretty good wakeup options to me. Dont need to mash one guaranteed special move to get off the ground..

Let's not pretend not having a mid armored move (on top of punishable pokes) doesn't hurt the character a lot. He is free to pokes into specials on wake up, pressure into pokes, and many other things. Not to mention that his armored move pushes the opponent fullscreen when he wants to be upclose...

Not having mid armor or great defensive pokes when almost everyone else has better options is clearly a problem. There are characters that have mid, overhead, low armored moves that are safe, can be MB for a combo, are faster put them at the perfect distance on hit/block and so on

 

[Zionix]

I just...this character has so much more and we're complaining about a universal change that every run cancel character got (the increased delay frames on block for run canceling) and fucking mid armor? What do you think you're special? That A-List shouldn't have the delay frames? Is that it? Guess what, you're not, deal with it. Also, you know who doesn't have mid armor and is still perfectly fine? Slasher. You don't need mid armor to be good, stop relying on armor so much and maybe you'll realize that (this is an assumption by me. If you're complaining about your armor being crouched and you're being punished for that, and that complaining becomes so intense that you're saying it is actively hurting the character, clearly you don't understand that just mashing armor out of stressful situations isn't how this game works.) people have to stop with these hotfix threads before people like me start having aneurisms.

I play slasher, bf2 is an amazing safe armor.

His projectile has armor. Also a mid.

Get back in your cupboard, made yourself look a fool.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I play slasher, bf2 is an amazing safe armor.

His projectile has armor. Also a mid.

Get back in your cupboard, made yourself look a fool.

Ok, ill give you that. But you do know there are character with little to no armored wakeups that are not only viable but good right? I'm pretty sure you missed the point of stop mashing armor enough to the point where being low profiled is a problem. You saw what Dink said, you have to adjust to what is happening. Having a get out of jail free move isnt how things should be. Would having mid armor be good for him? Yes, of course giving non low profilable armor is good. But saying your character needs it is absurd and makes YOU look like a fool.

 

[Zionix]

I'm well aware of what you're saying. I am saying if the hit advantage was changed, you still wouldn't be able to do the dash cancel combos anymore.

Run cancels were purposely toned down in this patch. An expected outcome of this is your gameplan using run cancels changing.

I am saying, in my personal experience, my gameplan would be based around using cancels that combo on hit with the new timing for block, unless you are using them in a punish scenario.

However, your feedback is noted.

So the message to the a-list players that have spent over 100s of hours getting muscle memory for run cancel combos and block strings. "Don't bother just use dash".

Its frustrating. F3 could be plus 6 and if we kept all our old cancel timings we'd be happy it regardless of the stamina changes.

At first i tried to sugar coat the block stun change but now it annoys me.

 

[Zionix]

Ok, ill give you that. But you do know there are character with little to no armored wakeups that are not only viable but good right? I'm pretty sure you missed the point of stop mashing armor enough to the point where being low profiled is a problem. You saw what Dink said, you have to adjust to what is happening. Having a get out of jail free move isnt how things should be. Would having mid armor be good for him? Yes, of course giving non low profilable armor is good. But saying your character needs it is absurd and makes YOU look like a fool.

Yeah, our arnored wakeup is full combo punishable. Meanwhile 60% of the cast have spammable safe armor.

I've had slashers df1 ex low profiled but I've never eaten 30% for trying it.

Nice try though. Assuming we are bad is a nice touch.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Yeah, our arnored wakeup is full combo punishable. Meanwhile 60% of the cast have spammable safe armor.

I've had slashers df1 ex low profiled but I've never eaten 30% for trying it.

Nice try though. Assuming we are bad is a nice touch.

When did I say *sigh* me saying you're armoring too much isn't saying you're bad, it's saying you have a flaw that has been perpetuated by the game's design since day fucking one. I'm honestly done with the conversation, I've said what I've had to say on the non-problem. Have fun forever downplaying.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Make EX NutPunch one of the two bar armored launchers and give me my god damn shadows back in stunt double

 

[Zionix]

When did I say *sigh* me saying you're armoring too much isn't saying you're bad, it's saying you have a flaw that has been perpetuated by the game's design since day fucking one. I'm honestly done with the conversation, I've said what I've had to say on the non-problem. Have fun forever downplaying.

You're done because you have nothing constructive to say or contribute further. You've been shut down and instead of admitting it, you have once again (just like in your first post) out lashed at the cage community.

Like it or not we have legitimate concerns about our character because as it stands he has full combo punish wake up and poke.

Sorry if that offends you.

 

[Tweedy]

LET ALIEN DELAY REKKAS ON HIT