General/Other - Johnny Cage Save Cage, hotfix ideas

[jaylee777]

Here's my take on the cancel changes:

The whole different timing on block or hit hasn't really been much of an issue for me. Just gotta get used to the extra 5 frames on block, which honestly isnt THAT bad.

You can do 113 skrc and if the opponent blocks you can react to that and block because you're -4, or if they get hit by the 3 you can react and go into F3dc113nutpunch for like 20%. (Hit confirming 113skrc into 12dc is much harder than F3 for me for whatever reason)

Getting used to the dash cancel combos isn't that bad. If you could jail multiple run cancels prepatch, then these dash cancel combos shouldn't be much of a problem for you.

We only can do one cancel now on block, so now we have to keep our opponent guessing as to WHEN we are gonna use that cancel. I use 114 alot and will often not cancel it so when I finally do the opponent tries to poke and gets hit. If the opponent thinks I will cancel it and I dont, then I can just go into more pressure while keeping my stamina.

Doing 12(1)rc on block isn't the way to go anymore imo. 12(1)rc,F2 is pretty reactable now and can get poked out of.

We have to use throws A LOT more in our offense now. F3skrc,throw is a thing we should do fairly often now.

I think F3skrc,S1 should jail a little easier. I believe it is a 2 frame link, which makes it very inconsistent (or maybe I just need to level up )

 

[ismael4790]

this is where you need to improve your oki game. if they know your only armour is a high attack then wake up with your overhead starter and thats a free combo. Your armour is too fast to break so they have to either try to neutral crouch it or pressure you on wakeup. alternatively you could wakeup d4, wake up NJP, wake up cross over, midscreen you could wakeup backdash or jump back. You are not limited to special moves on wakeup. I found this with warlock in the previous version of the game. people just block low and i dont get my scoop wakeup so i make it a guess for them. do the same

i just gave you an option of either armoured wake up, throw, overhead, jump....thats what...a 4 way guess for them? seems like some pretty good wakeup options to me. Dont need to mash one guaranteed special move to get off the ground..

Does not mashing d1 or d3 nullify all those options because they low profile exsk?

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Does not mashing d1 or d3 nullify all those options because they low profile exsk?

Yeah I'm not saying you'll nullify every option I mean you could just block on wake up. Just can't get up for free anymore

 

[ismael4790]

Yeah I'm not saying you'll nullify every option I mean you could just block on wake up. Just can't get up for free anymore

Yeah, it sucks. With mid or low armor, at least they have to guess block/noblock, or try to crossup you.

With high armor there is no guessing game, meaty poke saves them from kick and allow them to start pressure. Cage is practically forced to block on wu now as you say, or backdash.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Idc what anyone says, I think SD isn't good anymore.

 

[ismael4790]

Idc what anyone says, I think SD isn't good anymore.

He sucks, worse than prepatch fisticuffs now.
Lost all that made him good.

 

[omooba]

You are wrong. Pre-patch Tremor could do two EX DB2 RC in a row, now, like others, he can do one. Unless you are talking about DB1 cancel which is not a run cancel.

yes db1 it basically does the same thing jax's run cancels does actually i take that back it does more

 

[omooba]

That's exactly what Cage can do now. Lao can't and never was able to run in and pressure someone on block with run cancels. He has to spend bar to be plus, just like Cage does.

so we're not counting staggers as pressure? he has so many good stagger strings two of which are advancing unlike cage that's what i mean by pressure. it's not limited to plus frames. i didn't say frame trapes

 

[ShArp]

yes db1 it basically does the same thing jax's run cancels

Except that it's not an actual run-cancel?

 

[omooba]

Except that it's not an actual run-cancel?

dude you get my point aight this is pointless

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Liu Kang matchup was bad before, and is stupid now, yes.

In general Liu has become too much strong in this meta. For example flame fist has nothing to fear about his gap in windmill punches. He does practically the same chip than the damage he might receive if you armor through the gap.

Armor changes have caused this kind of effects. Characters that were good now are too good, characters that were trash now are radiactive trash...

That gap is a huge gap bud you can do much more than just armor in that gap and now ff has nothing to counter the blow up. If your Jason, Sonya, Bo, or Tanya you literally can jump over after wps all day avoiding all pressure because the low fireball doesn't hit you. You literally can blow up a db2 or anything but a low fireball with almost any decent string or a throw. If u think ff wants to waist armor let him he'll always be negative. (Just remember after wps he is always negative)and low fireball full combo punishable on block.

Yes you'll have to deal with a toned down guessing game if your not Tanya, Jason, Jax, erron black, Sonya, Lao, Bo, milenna or scorpion. Yes you'll have to guess between a low fireball (full combo punishable on block) or a dr/parry (which both can be interupted and jumped over). Notice none of those can extend his pressure even if he hits them and max damage he can deal if one hits is 21% to knockdown with 1 bar spent.

I'm sick and tired of all these guys saying how strong ff is now. He is so god damn easy to blow up man just some people don't even bother looking into it.

 

[omooba]

Liu Kang matchup was bad before, and is stupid now, yes.

In general Liu has become too much strong in this meta. For example flame fist has nothing to fear about his gap in windmill punches. He does practically the same chip than the damage he might receive if you armor through the gap.

Armor changes have caused this kind of effects. Characters that were good now are too good, characters that were trash now are radiactive trash...

well this is bullshit. the gap is fat as fuck and no longer armor breaks because it has no armor. the only reason to use flame is 10% fireball

 

[kelevra]

That gap is a huge gap bud you can do much more than just armor in that gap and now ff has nothing to counter the blow up. If your Jason, Sonya, Bo, or Tanya you literally can jump over after wps all day avoiding all pressure because the low fireall doesn't hit you. You literally can blow up a db2 or anything but a low fireball with almost any decent string or a throw. If u think ff wants to waist armor let him he'll always be negative. (Just remember after wps he is always negative)and low fireball full combo punishable on block.

Yes you'll have to deal with a toned down guessing game if your not Tanya, Jason, Jax, erron black, Sonya, Lao, Bo, milenna or scorpion. Yes you'll have to guess between a low fireball (full combo punishable on block) or a dr/parry (which both can be interupted and jumped over). Notice none of those can extend his pressure even if he hits them and max damage he can deal if one hits is 21% to knockdown with 1 bar spent.

I'm sick and tired of all these guys saying how strong ff is now. He is so god damn easy to blow up man just some people don't even bother looking into it.

Thats what we a-listers had to deal with for the last half year. Dudes crying all over the place because he was soooo broken. And yet i didnt see much if any representation in top8's around the globe. It's just the typical nrs community attitude so don't sweat it because that's never going to change.

 

[ismael4790]

That gap is a huge gap bud you can do much more than just armor in that gap and now ff has nothing to counter the blow up. If your Jason, Sonya, Bo, or Tanya you literally can jump over after wps all day avoiding all pressure because the low fireball doesn't hit you. You literally can blow up a db2 or anything but a low fireball with almost any decent string or a throw. If u think ff wants to waist armor let him he'll always be negative. (Just remember after wps he is always negative)and low fireball full combo punishable on block.

Yes you'll have to deal with a toned down guessing game if your not Tanya, Jason, Jax, erron black, Sonya, Lao, Bo, milenna or scorpion. Yes you'll have to guess between a low fireball (full combo punishable on block) or a dr/parry (which both can be interupted and jumped over). Notice none of those can extend his pressure even if he hits them and max damage he can deal if one hits is 21% to knockdown with 1 bar spent.

I'm sick and tired of all these guys saying how strong ff is now. He is so god damn easy to blow up man just some people don't even bother looking into it.

In the specific matchup I was talking about (Cage vs Liu), ff liu needs not to care anymore about being exnutpunched into full combo through the gap. That is a fact, and it's huge.
And Liu can bait the jump back/forward you mention just not special canceling windmill punch, and full combo punishing them in the air, or simply uppercut back to fullscreen where he now shines more. He was solid, and now he has one thing less to fear, armor launchers. Not saying he's one of the best, but he's not in worse position than before at all, imo.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Thats what we a-listers had to deal with for the last half year. Dudes crying all over the place because he was soooo broken. And yet i didnt see much if any representation in top8's around the globe. It's just the typical nrs community attitude so don't sweat it because that's never going to change.

A list had crazy jailing pressure though. He had safe 50 50 mix ups in his safe pressure ff is far from that ff is unsafe at all times

 

[Asodimazze]

A list had crazy jailing pressure though. He had safe 50 50 mix ups in his safe pressure ff is far from that ff is unsafe at all times

He never had 50 50, let's not write wrong informations

 

[Zionix]

He never had 50 50, let's not write wrong informations

50% chance for you opponent to not lab the match up and make a post about his broke 50/50s

 

[Basic Stupidity]

He never had 50 50, let's not write wrong informations

he didnt have 50 50 s but he had 50 50 mixeups.

In the specific matchup I was talking about (Cage vs Liu), ff liu needs not to care anymore about being exnutpunched into full combo through the gap. That is a fact, and it's huge.
And Liu can bait the jump back/forward you mention just not special canceling windmill punch, and full combo punishing them in the air, or simply uppercut back to fullscreen where he now shines more. He was solid, and now he has one thing less to fear, armor launchers. Not saying he's one of the best, but he's not in worse position than before at all, imo.

But he never had to really worry about armored launchers in the first place. FF could break ANY armor and 90% of the cast with ease. If he ever suspected that you were going to armor on wakeup, he could at the last second run up and ex wp so his armor would eat the attack and he would break the wakeup in the process. If the opponent didnt wakeup FF still had a mixeup after and it was generally much more safe than if he didnt use the ex in the first place.

Armored launchers were never a real problem for FF. He had the (preferable) option of being able to break the armored launcher after wps with a second ex wp after shaolin flame. I would have preferred it if my opponent tried to armor after my wps because then they would have wasted potential damage they could get from a combo.

It is unbelievable that the majority of the community is saying that he is better now. He cant break 2 hit armor anymore unless you go for a setup and almost the entire cast has it now too. He lost one of his major mind games which, in the process made him lose a significant amount of pressure. He lost his armor and frames on his ex wps which was fair but it is still a significant loss.

As for the baiting the jump, many characters could get a jump in punch before the AA and thats after the fact that you would be full combo punished if you were wrong.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

I might have some ideas for johnny universal moves. EX nutpunch has 8-9 frames start up and 113 is safe on block but still has his gap when you special cancel it.

what do you think ?

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Yeah, it sucks. With mid or low armor, at least they have to guess block/noblock, or try to crossup you.

With high armor there is no guessing game, meaty poke saves them from kick and allow them to start pressure. Cage is practically forced to block on wu now as you say, or backdash.

Depending on the character you could block the poke and counter poke. Iunno, guessing game lol

 

[IrishMantis]

Man it's getting hot in here

 

[llabslb]

If he ever suspected that you were going to armor on wakeup, he could at the last second run up and ex wp so his armor would eat the attack

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Prepatch ff could just do an ex windmill punch on people trying to wake up and it would garantee an armor break because the ex had armor. Even if a move was fast enough to hit before the moves armor is gone it still wouldn't effect Liu because he still had his armor.

 

[Pygmy_Potato]

So what is the exact frame data on SD Cage's shadows now? Rising shadow is -4? MSK is what?

 

[jaylee777]

So what is the exact frame data on SD Cage's shadows now? Rising shadow is -4? MSK is what?

Mimic shadowkick is +2. Mimic uppercut is +3