General/Other - Johnny Cage Save Cage, hotfix ideas

[Asodimazze]

So, the new patch recently hit and the whole game was changed. Among all characters, It's very possible that the one who was nerfed the most is Cage, whose general and variation specific changes have likely made him bottom tier at the moment. He needs help, and here is what I propose for each variation:

General:

Cage needs mid armor or better defensive pokes. As it stands, he is the worst defensive character in the game. Having a high as his only armored move is not enough, any decent opponent abuses it and Cage counterpoke game sucks way too much (his fastest poke is d3: 7f, -9 on block. He gets full combo punished by some characters and anyone else gets a free poke + free offense after blocking it).

I suggest giving EX Nutpunch the same treatment of EX Punchwalk: armored move that can be MB to get a full combo on hit.

Alternatively, it would be ok to give him armor on Ultra Flipkick and adjust the move hitbox to make it a true mid (it whiffs way too much vs pokes).

A-List:

Stamina changes hit A-List extremely hard, but imho his main problem regards the hidden execution "nerf". I'll copy here what I wrote in other topics:

• Johnny Cage (A-List) - added 5 frames before a dash cancel is active if a move is charged during the opponents block stun

This change is a huge pain in the ass to deal with, because the cancel timing is significantly different if the move connects on hit or block but the player has no way to know if the opponent will block the move.
Guessing the timing of the cancel is just stupid and if you presume the move is going to hit, but the opponent blocks it, the cancel doesn't come out at all and Cage dies.

I can understand the block advantage nerf, but making the player guess to perform his own stuff properly is wrong, so I hope a hotfix will solve this problem.

It also becomes incredibly stupid in some situations, here is an example: since day 1 12(1)rc might whiff his first or second hit against some characters blocking low (like Cassie). If the Cage players sees the opponent blocking the first hit and changes his cancel timing accordingly, he will get stuck in the animation when the second hit whiffs (lol).

I am sure NRS can fix this if they want, they already fixed run cancel many months ago when a patch ruined them. It's a needed change, so I hope they'll make it.

Stunt Double:

Stunt needs his corner combos back, MSK needs to launch again. He got plenty of nerfs in this patch, there is no need to touch his combo game too. The armor on EX MSK doesn't compensate the loss of many corner combos.

Fisticuff:

Fisticuffs buffs are nice and welcome, but speedbag still has a billion hitbox issues that needs to be fixed. I'll post here an old video made by @ismael4790 that still applies to the current patch.

Discuss

 

[coconutshrimp]

I think they need to touch on SD'd MSK by a couple frames. Imo they took away way too many plus frames from it.

 

[omooba]

i feel like they should fix run cancels period
everyone will be fine with nerfing them not to jail, shit make them at most plus 5 and we'll work with it just don't make it so we can only run cancel once. predator, tremor, tanya all get to run cancel twice and pred's is plus like come on. heavy weapons just sitting here like bruh why.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Gotta choose now, either play footsies and keep your stamina for pressure, or play like prepatch run in and f3 like a lunatic and have no offense from it.

Seems ok to me.

 

[Asodimazze]

Gotta choose now, either play footsies and keep your stamina for pressure, or play like prepatch run in and f3 like a lunatic and have no offense from it.

Seems ok to me.

Give him mid armor and it might be acceptable, but as it stands he is way too weak when defending.

And to be fair, I never asked for the old pressure...I just want to be able to execute my stuff properly though

 

[omooba]

Gotta choose now, either play footsies and keep your stamina for pressure, or play like prepatch run in and f3 like a lunatic and have no offense from it.

Seems ok to me.

because lao can't run in right now and f2 like a lunatic and get pressure hmmmmm
obviously not as good as what cage could do but this mentality doesn't justify what they did to run cancels because run cancel characters already had to worry more about spacing more than other types of characters because of stamina before this shit

 

[THTB]

Only thing I don't agree with on the RC rebalancing is how they executed the block advantage stuff.

Reptile has a specific property added in the MKXL launch patch that reduces blockstun if he cancels into EX invis. Why couldn't this be used elsewhere?

 

[ismael4790]

There is absolutely 0 reason why exflipkick should not have armor. It's so stupid to see people neutral crouching or mashing poke next to Cage when he's on the ground because his only armor is a high.
The double bar for exnutpunch as Asodimazze says makes sense, would be like an extension of how nutpunch worked in A-List.

Stunt double got pretty much destroyed in this patch. Imo he only needed a small shave of +frames in mimic kicks and htb removal

A-List needed a touch, but definitely not such a severe touch...

For fisticuffs i think he's pretty solid now. I would have liked the random whiffing issues of speedbag to be solved, of course, but I knew it was not likely to happen...maybe next patch?

 

[STRYKIE]

Only thing I don't agree with on the RC rebalancing is how they executed the block advantage stuff.

Reptile has a specific property added in the MKXL launch patch that reduces blockstun if he cancels into EX invis. Why couldn't this be used elsewhere?

Liu Kang players have also had to put up with the exact same mechanic for over a year lol.

Cage players confirmed a bunch of executional frauds.

 

[Zionix]

They didn't even mention cage on REOs podcast.

That's how underwhelming they have left him.

I'm still doing work with Fisticuffs but I know a lot of the cage community plays and will want to just play a-list.

There are people saying that their defense is bad but they obviously don't play cage. It made sense that D3 was -9 before. Now its just a massive oversight.

They could fix the block timing. It won't do much, all his cancels are terribly obvious now. 113 will not combo unless you have full stamina to run cancel it so our low starter just got ALOT worse.

On a positive note.

Fisticuffs B121 combo midscreen:

B121 x3 (dont know how its put) bf1 EX F4, F24, 12, F3xxbd3 31%

So we can launch and activate fists midscreen from b121 for 1 bar. This then leads into a B1 stagger into B1. Or just B1 throw; or a chip set-up such as 333 DF2ex or normal (its largely safe)

 

[THTB]

Liu Kang players have also had to put up with the exact same mechanic for over a year lol.

Cage players confirmed a bunch of executional frauds.

In all honesty, I don't even think you should be run canceling anyway in this version, unless you're looking to make something actually have advantage or totally safe.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I remember when Cage was bottom tier

 

[ismael4790]

They didn't even mention cage on REOs podcast.

That's how underwhelming they have left him.

I'm still doing work with Fisticuffs but I know a lot of the cage community plays and will want to just play a-list.

There are people saying that their defense is bad but they obviously don't play cage. It made sense that D3 was -9 before. Now its just a massive oversight.

They could fix the block timing. It won't do much, all his cancels are terribly obvious now. 113 will not combo unless you have full stamina to run cancel it so our low starter just got ALOT worse.

On a positive note.

Fisticuffs B121 combo midscreen:

B121 x3 (dont know how its put) bf1 EX F4, F24, 12, F3xxbd3 31%

So we can launch and activate fists midscreen from b121 for 1 bar. This then leads into a B1 stagger into B1. Or just B1 throw; or a chip set-up such as 333 DF2ex or normal (its largely safe)

Fisticuffs is finally decent, yeah. Only speedbag whiffing issues should be solved, exflipkick becoming a mid, and maybe the two bar nutpunch idea, but if exflipkick becomes a mid I think he might not even need it.

About the combos, mb fistbump works EXACTLY as I have been asking for more than a year lol. Solves many of his problems.

Here is a small combo compilation I did yesterday showing some of his mb fistbump possibilities.

 

[Zionix]

Gotta choose now, either play footsies and keep your stamina for pressure, or play like prepatch run in and f3 like a lunatic and have no offense from it.

Seems ok to me.

Footsies are massively enhanced when your neutral has a ground AND air game. With little to no air threat that cage has its not as easy as you make it out to be.

Also there is no pressure after F3 (even when at full stamina) its jail a 1 11 or risk a full combo punishable 113 which you can't hit confirm; all of which is a high and easily disrespected. 12 dash cancel is minus so that is not a good option and if you choose not to cancel it then your gonna get poked out or back-dashed. All his other shit is too slow to jail and all highs not to mention cage has no safe special without meter. You can also do 114 but it whiffs on much of the cast its just not reliable.

Cage isn't Lao he can't shotgun B3 in the neutral or stagger windmill punches to condition throws or jump around with the threat of divekick. Same crap with Mileena, Cage in a-list doesn't have those character tools to play with; and getting in range is hard enough as it is.

Now fisticuffs is a different beast. B1 can be shotgunned, its a 10 frame mid thats -3 and leads to full combo. Here you can condition throws and make your opponent scared to push a button its range is shocking but as it stand it might be cages best offensive tool.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

I put this here

There is still whiff issues i forgot to record

 

[omooba]

Footsies are massively enhanced when your neutral has a ground AND air game. With little to no air threat that cage has its not as easy as you make it out to be.

Also there is no pressure after F3 (even when at full stamina) its jail a 1 11 or risk a full combo punishable 113 which you can't hit confirm; all of which is a high and easily disrespected. 12 dash cancel is minus so that is not a good option and if you choose not to cancel it then your gonna get poked out or back-dashed. All his other shit is too slow to jail and all highs not to mention cage has no safe special without meter. You can also do 114 but it whiffs on much of the cast its just not reliable.

Cage isn't Lao he can't shotgun B3 in the neutral or stagger windmill punches to condition throws or jump around with the threat of divekick. Same crap with Mileena, Cage in a-list doesn't have those character tools to play with; and getting in range is hard enough as it is.

Now fisticuffs is a different beast. B1 can be shotgunned, its a 10 frame mid thats -3 and leads to full combo. Here you can condition throws and make your opponent scared to push a button its range is shocking but as it stand it might be cages best offensive tool.

exactly when people compare run cancel characters in neutral to everyone else shit gets me so ticked

 

[SmokingWarrior]

D3 -9 on block is a true pain in the ass actually, it should be -5

Jax has an armor on EX B,F4, Johnny should have one on his Ultra flip kick.

For SD the MSK should +5 on block

 

[IrishMantis]

D3 -9 on block is a true pain in the ass actually, it should be -5

Jax has an armor on EX B,F4, Johnny should have one on his Ultra flip kick.

For SD the MSK should +5 on block

It's not the plus frames that's the issue its losing the launch ability in the corner but I haven't really played so it could still be really good

I think Alist is fine at best they could of made his ex flip have armour be punishable and never launch

I have yet to fully grind out but as now I still think he's fine

We can utilise our throw game more instead of trying to jail everything

But I can synthesise with people playing cancel characters since early as they have to completely learn the timing again

 

[kelevra]

I remember when Cage was bottom tier

That i remember aswell, he was considered mid-low back in the days. Then he got a huge ass buff, also known as then new netcode

 

[SmokingWarrior]

I think Alist is fine at best they could of made his ex flip have armour be punishable and never launch

I still have some doubt if A-list still fine or not. Like you said, the throw game is better now, but in A-list, you need to stay close to your opponent and since they nerf the stamina, it's harder to come close if your opponent zone correctly. He has his forceball yes, but the forceball (even EX) can be dodge easily just by crouchblocking or just be on crouch

 

[IrishMantis]

I still have some doubt if A-list still fine or not. Like you said, the throw game is better now, but in A-list, you need to stay close to your opponent and since they nerf the stamina, it's harder to come close if your opponent zone correctly. He has his forceball yes, but the forceball (even EX) can be dodge easily just by crouchblocking or just be on crouch

We just gotta be patient and pick our spits make a read with Ex SK, use dashes when opponent expects run.

But I do see the LK being an absalute nightmare now

 

[Lo0py]

i feel like they should fix run cancels period
everyone will be fine with nerfing them not to jail, shit make them at most plus 5 and we'll work with it just don't make it so we can only run cancel once. predator, tremor, tanya all get to run cancel twice and pred's is plus like come on. heavy weapons just sitting here like bruh why.

yeah, HW jax is rip. Can't even do his BnB midscreen combo.

 

[ismael4790]

We just gotta be patient and pick our spits make a read with Ex SK, use dashes when opponent expects run.

But I do see the LK being an absalute nightmare now

Liu Kang matchup was bad before, and is stupid now, yes.

In general Liu has become too much strong in this meta. For example flame fist has nothing to fear about his gap in windmill punches. He does practically the same chip than the damage he might receive if you armor through the gap.

Armor changes have caused this kind of effects. Characters that were good now are too good, characters that were trash now are radiactive trash...

 

[IrishMantis]

Liu Kang matchup was bad before, and is stupid now, yes.

In general Liu has become too much strong in this meta. For example flame fist has nothing to fear about his gap in windmill punches. He does practically the same chip than the damage he might receive if you armor through the gap.

Pre patch it always seemed like Kebshi potentially be a bad MU with the right buffs for Cage.

How is the MU now?

I ask you because you play both

 

[jaylee777]

I personally think all the variations are fine atm. Most people are overreacting about the patch.

The only 2 changes that I think would be good for him is make his d3 not -9 on block (-6 or something would be ok) and allow stunt double to combo off of mimic shadow kick in the corner.