Match-Up Discussion - Scorpion Who do you think Scorpion beats right now?

[OutworldKeith]

I feel like grandmaster loses to ninjutsu badly

I wouldn't say badly. It's slight advantage meaning 6-4 at the most. Could even be a 5.5, but it's a boring MU at the highest level.

 

[Ze Dingo]

I hear where you are coming from but imo anything that slight would likely still just fall under a "5-5".

I disagree. Scorpion has a slight edge. 5-5 means dead even. I think we should definitely take decimal points into account when discussing matchups.

 

[Matix218]

I disagree. Scorpion has a slight edge. 5-5 means dead even. I think we should definitely take decimal points into account when discussing matchups.

While it would be more accurate, generally people stick with the solid numbers (6-4, 5-5, 7-3 etc.) Because they are easier to agree upon when you are putting together a full matchup chart and taking into account feedback from multiple players.

If you are putting together your own personal matchup chart you could get as detailed with decimals as you want but generally matchup charts are more accurate when they draw from more sources and for that reason it is probably best to stick to solid numbers because they are just less cumbersome and you are more likely to get a general agreement upon what the matchup is when you go with:

6-4 = slight advantage
3-7 = large disadvantage

Etc.

As opposed to 5.2 - 4.8 = barely measurable advantage.

You know what I mean?

 

[OutworldKeith]

I've been thinking.

I think Scorpion beats Mileena very slightly. Something like 5.3-4.7.

Yeah, it's a slight advantage, but not enough to justify me saying 6-4.

I really don't think he beats her. His anti-zoning tools help him a lot & he completely ignores her Telekick xx Sai shenanigans. However, I just think her Footsies tools are superior.

I don't think she beats him either.

 

[STRYKIE]

I think there's a good chance Scorp/Mil may be in Scorp's favour. I've felt pretty good about the matchup from quite early in the game and none of the changes she has received have particularly alleviated why Scorp gives her problems.

Mind you, when I say beat, I don't mean 10-0. It's entirely possible to still get outplayed in an advantageous matchup. It's tough to play a Mileena like Foxy's but that's the level we should strive to play at in the first place. He could probably give a good Scorpion fits with freaking Goro if he wanted to.

 

[Tweedy]

Is it really practical to react to Mileena's sais with teleport?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think there's a good chance Scorp/Mil may be in Scorp's favour. I've felt pretty good about the matchup from quite early in the game and none of the changes she has received have particularly alleviated why Scorp gives her problems.

Mind you, when I say beat, I don't mean 10-0. It's entirely possible to still get outplayed in an advantageous matchup. It's tough to play a Mileena like Foxy's but that's the level we should strive to play at in the first place. He could probably give a good Scorpion fits with freaking Goro if he wanted to.

I'm brand new to Scorpion. Are you talking about Hellfire or Ninjutsu?

 

[STRYKIE]

Is it really practical to react to Mileena's sais with teleport?

Unless you're online and the connection is considerably butt, then yes...

I'm brand new to Scorpion. Are you talking about Hellfire or Ninjutsu?

Both. The OP does kinda suggest that we don't take variation specifics into account lol.

That said, Ethereal may have a few aces in the hole that remain to be seen.

 

[God Confirm]

Unless you're online and the connection is considerably butt, then yes...

You have a 4 frame reaction window including to catch them with a TP. I don't believe this for a second.

I think there's a good chance Scorp/Mil may be in Scorp's favour. I've felt pretty good about the matchup from quite early in the game and none of the changes she has received have particularly alleviated why Scorp gives her problems.

Mind you, when I say beat, I don't mean 10-0. It's entirely possible to still get outplayed in an advantageous matchup. It's tough to play a Mileena like Foxy's but that's the level we should strive to play at in the first place. He could probably give a good Scorpion fits with freaking Goro if he wanted to.

Both. The OP does kinda suggest that we don't take variation specifics into account lol.

That said, Ethereal may have a few aces in the hole that remain to be seen.

if there is any advantage Scorpions way in the Hellfire - Piercing match up, then there is no way that its above 5-5 our way. What does he have that counters her in any way at all?

 

[Tweedy]

Yeah, I don't think you can react and punish Mileena's sais. That'd only work if someone is being predictable.

Her recovery is pretty similar to Tanya's tonfa. I remember being able to throw it whenever I wanted vs Blake. Now when I tried to throw Kung Lao's hat.........

 

[Paul the Octopus]

I don't play Scorpion but the high sai was definitely reactable pre-patch with Reptile ex pounce, which is slower than Scorpion's teleport. However, the frames they shaved off in the patch make it unreactable at least for Reptile. The low sai on the other hand - I think it has the same recovery frames - is still reactable.

Note: this does not mean easily reactable. I have to be looking for it specifically, and if you fake a motion that looks like a sai I'll probably bite and get punished.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Is it really practical to react to Mileena's sais with teleport?

It doesn't matter in Scorp's case. He can neutral crouch to bait Low Sai or Telekick. Meaning he can react with exTP to Low Sai and he gets a guaranteed full combo punish on a blocked Telekick.

 

[STRYKIE]

You have a 4 frame reaction window including to catch them with a TP. I don't believe this for a second.







if there is any advantage Scorpions way in the Hellfire - Piercing match up, then there is no way that its above 5-5 our way. What does he have that counters her in any way at all?

I seriously don't understand where people are coming from with the whole notion that sais cannot be reacted to. People act as if she got double digits worth of frames removed from her sai recovery in the XL patch.

Hell, even pre-patch, not only did I deal with them with teleport, if I was playing Ninjutsu, I ducked the standing sai and punished with B2 (yes, on reaction). If his memory is fresh enough I'm sure even @TheGabStandard would attest this.

As for Hellfire, there's not too much Hellfire specific that determines the matchup so to speak, more-so that Scorpion's base toolset already does well against Mileena and he doesn't lose any of it.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

I seriously don't understand where people are coming from with the whole notion that sais cannot be reacted to. People act as if she got double digits worth of frames removed from her sai recovery in the XL patch.

Hell, even pre-patch, not only did I deal with them with teleport, if I was playing Ninjutsu, I ducked the standing sai and punished with B2 (yes, on reaction). If his memory is fresh enough I'm sure even @TheGabStandard would attest this.

As for Hellfire, there's not too much Hellfire specific that determines the matchup so to speak, more-so that Scorpion's base toolset already does well against Mileena and he doesn't lose any of it.

Very possible my reactions are just slow, but I literally tested it right before I posted it.

If you record Mileena walking back and forth, randomly jabbing, and then throwing sais, are you able to punish consistently? I can do it for low sais but not regular. Those few frames made the difference for me, as it's not like sai was *easy* to react to, even pre-patch.

(This is for Reptile, I'm not confident the exact same applies for Scorpion... I only tested Scorp a little).

 

[God Confirm]

I seriously don't understand where people are coming from with the whole notion that sais cannot be reacted to. People act as if she got double digits worth of frames removed from her sai recovery in the XL patch.

Practice mode, and frame checking. You need to test at least one yourself.

Hell, even pre-patch, not only did I deal with them with teleport, if I was playing Ninjutsu, I ducked the standing sai and punished with B2 (yes, on reaction). If his memory is fresh enough I'm sure even @TheGabStandard would attest this.

What happens in real matches is no equivalent to whats possible and what isn't. You may have just caught him pushing buttons after a Sai. Maybe you didn't, Hellfire simply does not have anything even coming close to Ninjutsus B2. It certainly doesn't mean that, from extension of this happening, that you can now TP punish Sais. Nobody has that reaction time, and I think you are confusing either the times that you've caught a Mileena pressing buttons after a Sai in a real match, or you are confusing "reaction" with "read".

As for Hellfire, there's not too much Hellfire specific that determines the matchup so to speak, more-so that Scorpion's base toolset already does well against Mileena and he doesn't lose any of it.

How though? What does his base toolkit have against Mileenas... her footsies outclass him on another level, she outranges him massively, she has better mix-ups, and has much nicer launching armour which doubles as a mix-up and advances... Hellfire gets his bread and butter against Mileena by punishing unsafe shit with his super duper Hellfire damage, and by pressuring her with FBC mix-ups Mileena... not sure exactly what the core character Scorpion offers here other than a better poke game and a jump in kick, and Mileena being one of the few characters in the game not afraid to anti-air it. The neutral range difference is massive, Piercing vs Hellfire is like Ninjutsu vs most characters, except if Ninjutsu could stagger his F2 hits and had legit 50/50 openers.



I don't think its crazy bad, but at absolute best its 5-5. But the design of Mileena is pretty much what Hellfire struggles the most against, great space control, great recovery, and low punishability off both those tools. It's not as bad as Hellfire vs DVorah by any means. But its not good either.

 

[TheGabStandard]

I seriously don't understand where people are coming from with the whole notion that sais cannot be reacted to. People act as if she got double digits worth of frames removed from her sai recovery in the XL patch.

Hell, even pre-patch, not only did I deal with them with teleport, if I was playing Ninjutsu, I ducked the standing sai and punished with B2 (yes, on reaction). If his memory is fresh enough I'm sure even @TheGabStandard would attest this.

Don't remind me man, it literally got to the point where I had to almost abandon sais in the MU unless thrown within dash distance.

 

[STRYKIE]

Very possible my reactions are just slow, but I literally tested it right before I posted it.

If you record Mileena walking back and forth, randomly jabbing, and then throwing sais, are you able to punish consistently? I can do it for low sais but not regular. Those few frames made the difference for me, as it's not like sai was *easy* to react to, even pre-patch.

(This is for Reptile, I'm not confident the exact same applies for Scorpion... I only tested Scorp a little).

I don't think it's a free reaction per se, I agree on that, you definitely have to keep half an eye out for it, but if I was able to visibly look for the sai travelling towards me, duck, wait for it to sail past my hurtbox region and then get a Ninjutsu B2 in with moderate success pre-patch, I don't see why teleport alone wouldn't be serviceable for punishing it now.

Thing is, from my experience, a lot of Mileena players don't use standing sai much unless they're not playing Piercing so maybe I'm not as well acquainted with it in XL nowadays to give a solid opinion on it.

What happens in real matches is no equivalent to whats possible and what isn't. You may have just caught him pushing buttons after a Sai. Maybe you didn't, Hellfire simply does not have anything even coming close to Ninjutsus B2. It certainly doesn't mean that, from extension of this happening, that you can now TP punish Sais. Nobody has that reaction time, and I think you are confusing either the times that you've caught a Mileena pressing buttons after a Sai in a real match, or you are confusing "reaction" with "read".

I asked him myself and he did confirm that the B2 was legit punishing her while still in recovery. Not sure what else to tell you mate.

 

[God Confirm]

I don't think it's a free reaction per se, I agree on that, you definitely have to keep half an eye out for it, but if I was able to visibly look for the sai travelling towards me, duck, wait for it to sail past my hurtbox region and then get a Ninjutsu B2 in with moderate success pre-patch, I don't see why teleport alone wouldn't be serviceable for punishing it now.

Because it's not. There really is no other answer here, it just isn't. The frames didn't work out like that.

I asked him myself and he did confirm that the B2 was legit punishing her while still in recovery. Not sure what else to tell you mate.

Sure. But that's Ninjutsu's B2. Not a 24f Teleport. And are you still talking about Low Sai's here?




I think seeing as you aren't familiar with Sais in MKX you should just jump into the lab, set a Mileena to throw a random Sai (high) and block, NJK her a few times so you don't know when its coming, and then see if you CAN actually react to it in time to punish. Theorycrafting is fine, but arguing its this way against a couple of people who have actually labbed it... why don't you boot up the console now and quickly test it for yourself?

 

[JINAMOUNAINAI]

I dont like disagreeing with you @STRYKIE coz i know you always research and know what you say, but high sai is not punishable by neutral duck b2 even in dash range, f2 is a 1~2 frame window punish from jump distance
Also i consider high sai unreactable
Low sai is super easy to tp punish tho

 

[Tweedy]

God Confirm is right.

But it's all good @STRYKIE you still have the best avatars on the site.

 

[God Confirm]

God Confirm is right.

But it's all good @STRYKIE you still have the best avatars on the site.

Yup, there's no taking that away from him

 

[STRYKIE]

Because it's not. There really is no other answer here, it just isn't. The frames didn't work out like that.





Sure. But that's Ninjutsu's B2. Not a 24f Teleport. And are you still talking about Low Sai's here?




I think seeing as you aren't familiar with Sais in MKX you should just jump into the lab, set a Mileena to throw a random Sai (high) and block, NJK her a few times so you don't know when its coming, and then see if you CAN actually react to it in time to punish. Theorycrafting is fine, but arguing its this way against a couple of people who have actually labbed it... why don't you boot up the console now and quickly test it for yourself?

I don't mean to sound like a bigot but I don't think I need to lab it if I've been confirmed to have done it myself by another human player in real time matches.

It's a 21 frame teleport for the record, and ducking, waiting for a sai to sail over me, then challenge them with a 17f move takes longer than that.

And no I was talking about standing sai. Even with low sai having MORE recovery removed than standing sai it's still significantly behind standing sai's recovery, pretty sure the low sai buff was mainly geared towards giving her more advantage on hit to work with when she used it in close quarters.

I dont like disagreeing with you @STRYKIE coz i know you always research and know what you say, but high sai is not punishable by neutral duck b2 even in dash range, f2 is a 1~2 frame window punish from jump distance
Also i consider high sai unreactable
Low sai is super easy to tp punish tho

Yeah I know Ninjutsu's B2 probably isn't a viable legit punish now but my point is if you could wait that long pre-patch, they must have decreased standing sai's recovery to extreme lengths to the point where not even teleport can reaction punish it, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[God Confirm]

I don't mean to sound like a bigot but I don't think I need to lab it if I've been confirmed to have done it myself by another human player in real time matches.

Well, you do need to lab it, because you've got it wrong. I don't know how or why you got it wrong in your theorizing or what went wrong your real matches, and I don't care to speculate on that, I just know how it is. Please just take a minute out here and check for yourself and this will all be cleared up. Especially if you are working on information from a different patch.

 

[JINAMOUNAINAI]

Im gonna have to agree with confirm, standing sai is waaaaay too hard to react to, you need to be ready for it, know its coming and tp even before it comes out of her hand

 

[STRYKIE]

Well, you do need to lab it, because you've got it wrong. I don't know how or why you got it wrong in your theorizing or what went wrong your real matches, and I don't care to speculate on that, I just know how it is. Please just take a minute out here and check for yourself and this will all be cleared up. Especially if you are working on information from a different patch.

Well just for your sake, I did cave in and "lab it", and sure enough;

Am I wrong that it can be reacted to with a teleport and legit punish her whilst she is still in recovery frames? The short answer is no. Did I ever at any point claim it was easy? Also no to that. But if we're talking about how easy it is to do things at high level play, then I'm pretty sure Johnny Cage would be a lot lower on the tier list than he is currently situated.

Honestly, I wouldn't be saying any of this if I didn't feel confident about it.