General/Other - Scorpion Scorpion General Discussion

[Matix218]

Uhhh...214fbrc jails into another 214,b3 and others. Considering how good 21 is as a stagger string (21 followed with a b12 is really hard to poke out of), the ridiculous damage he has even meterless, +18 adv standing reset after virtually any combo, increased chip due to flame aura, broken jump in kick, 6 frame poke, guaranteed vortex after 123fbrc, 214fbrc, f3 fbrc on BLOCK, and the most ridiculous, a +5 dash cancel on BLOCK( 214,123,21,f3 fbdc followed up with a b12 cannot be poked out of by majority of the cast) and you've an almost OP pressure character, definitely the best in the game at this point.

I think we will start seeing more tournament hellfire players after the frame data changes in the big patch. He is undoubtedly a really strong character and also a very fun character to play.

 

[HuttonMD]

I think we will start seeing more tournament hellfire players after the frame data changes in the big patch. He is undoubtedly a really strong character and also a very fun character to play.

I hope so he definitely fun to play. Once I figured out how to play him and learned the fbc he is alot of fun. He definitely has great tools and pressure once you get it started.

 

[HuttonMD]

The b3 fbc gives me trouble sometimes when playing online. Also is it worth it to try and fbc the f4 on block?

 

[OutworldKeith]

I'm telling you that you can prevent to 21 from happening if you interrupt the first 2 before 1 comes out. There's always been a gap there. If you jump in and try to do 21 after someone blocks your jip the can neutral duck and poke you before you can get your pressure going. And on block you can too. You can armor it as well. That's my issue with scorpion imo. He doesn't have enough mids, let alone enough moves in his move sets. I love scorp no matter what. But more moves would be nice in his arsenal along with some viable mids that could lead to a launcher.

Dude nobody has reactions like that to neutral crouch a high string after a blocked jip. That would have to be one helluva read!

He doesn't need more mids. If you're getting poked to death you gotta figure out how to counter poke. Poking too much can be turned into a negative. Sure it'd be really nice to have a good mid to lead with but he just got some great Buffs.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Scorp players, what the hellfire do we do about F/T throwing out NjPs? He just covers so much space and can do it safely, I can't win the long range projectile trades against his obscene projectiles when they are off cooldown, and NjP'ing makes Hellfire itself whiff. I can TP punish a Ferra Bowl if I'm absolutely waiting for it, but if I misread and he goes for the right range on a Ferra Curveball it can knock me out of the TP if I'm not fast enough. Maybe I just need to work on this, but it's HARD tho

But there isn't enough time to TP against an NjP on reaction hes already on ground and recovered, and doing it on read is a BIG read and costs me a shitload of health if wrong, and often gets caught by the NjP anyway if he delays it slightly. I can't run in and uppercut, there is no chance of contesting him in the air, I guess while I'm out of range of it I can throw out Fireballs and Chains, but what happens when he is advancing me into the corner and throwing insta NjPs in? It also makes him extremely hard to get in on, he can just keep throwing it out while backing off, forcing me to block his NjPs, then suddenly going for an immediate advancing when I try to cover the ground and getting a full combo, or just mixing me up with the low randomly. The only way I've been able to get out is either armoring through, but this is risky because if its timed wrong it slides right under and leaves very punishable on whiff. I'm really unsure what to do here, all the options with range to deal with it seem too slow to deal with it unlike most characters who have a decently fast projectile or a slide or at least decent forward advancing armor, and unlike most NjP's which wouldn't be a problem as I could still use my spacing tools to get around it, or just run in and apply a mid, even Takeda is workable, but Ferra's just feels too damn far for Scorp to fuck with. I've never been this lost before in a match up ever, I'm wondering if the answer is just "pick someone other than Scorpion"

 

[OutworldKeith]

Scorp players, what the hellfire do we do about F/T throwing out NjPs? He just covers so much space and can do it safely, I can't win the long range projectile trades against his obscene projectiles when they are off cooldown, and NjP'ing makes Hellfire itself whiff. I can TP punish a Ferra Bowl if I'm absolutely waiting for it, but if I misread and he goes for the right range on a Ferra Curveball it can knock me out of the TP if I'm not fast enough. Maybe I just need to work on this, but it's HARD tho

But there isn't enough time to TP against an NjP on reaction hes already on ground and recovered, and doing it on read is a BIG read and costs me a shitload of health if wrong, and often gets caught by the NjP anyway if he delays it slightly. I can't run in and uppercut, there is no chance of contesting him in the air, I guess while I'm out of range of it I can throw out Fireballs and Chains, but what happens when he is advancing me into the corner and throwing insta NjPs in? It also makes him extremely hard to get in on, he can just keep throwing it out while backing off, forcing me to block then suddenly going for a mix-up. The only way I've been able to get out is either armoring through, but this is risky because if its timed wrong it slides right under and leaves very punishable on whiff. I'm really unsure what to do here, all the options with range to deal with it seem too slow to deal with it unlike most characters who have a decently fast projectile or a slide or at least decent forward advancing armor, and unlike most NjP's which wouldn't be a problem as I could still use my spacing tools to get around it, or just run in and apply a mid, even Takeda is workable, but Ferra's just feels too damn far for Scorp to fuck with. I've never been this lost before in a match up ever, I'm wondering if the answer is just "pick someone other than Scorpion"

Use Ninjutsu b2 whiff punish.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Use Ninjutsu b2 whiff punish.

let me clarify, I'm strictly Hellfire sorry (no Ginsu's here)

 

[Eddy Wang]

let me clarify, I'm strictly Hellfire sorry (no Ginsu's here)

You need to read that NJP and trip guard punish with ex TP. But if he is outside of Flame Aura's range, and is jumping straight up, don't give yourself the trouble, let him land into db2 which is unblockable.

Lots of people that jumps straight up to bait a trip guard can be beaten the same exact way.

 

[HuttonMD]

let me clarify, I'm strictly Hellfire sorry (no Ginsu's here)

That's seems tough for hellfire due to his lack of range. I haven't labbed it so I don't know if this works but have you tried jk him out of it?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You need to read that NJP and trip guard punish with ex TP. But if he is outside of Flame Aura's range, and is jumping straight up, don't give yourself the trouble, let him land into db2 which is unblockable.

Lots of people that jumps straight up to bait a trip guard can be beaten the same exact way.

Sure, but neither of those suggestions help me if he is in that range where his NjP will hit me out of both, but not in range of uppercut or S3, and thats not even a small amount of space his range is massive on it. Plus, even outside of that range, assuming he Nuetral jumps looking to control the space for a run in or jump in or whatever, that's a big read for me to make to punish it with EX TP, I mean I have to predict it because TP is too slow to punish it on reaction, so if I guess wrong I waste a bar, he blocks it, I'm dead. I'm cool if this is what our options come down to and I can play to this, but is this literally it? Press EX-TP close your eyes and pray you made the right read?

That's seems tough for hellfire due to his lack of range. I haven't labbed it so I don't know if this works but have you tried jk him out of it?

Yeah, at the spacing I'm talking about he either catches you with the NjP for trying to get in or it gets blocked, so that doesn't do it unforunately, and if he doesn't NjP I can't get AA'd even with max range spaced JiK

 

[Eddy Wang]

Sure, but neither of those suggestions help me if he is in that range where his NjP will hit me out of both, but not in range of uppercut or S3, and thats not even a small amount of space his range is massive on it. Plus, even outside of that range, assuming he Nuetral jumps looking to control the space for a run in or jump in or whatever, that's a big read for me to make to punish it with EX TP, I mean I have to predict it because reacting is too slow, so if I guess wrong I waste a bar, he blocks it, I'm dead, is this literally what it comes down to? Press EX-TP close your eyes and pray you made the right read?

Doing Trip Guards with TP requires a good prediction skill though, i don't advise it to anyone who doesn't have them that much, still, walking away from the range of NJP and hellfire him on the land should be far more safe, surely less rewarding that betting a meter on a punish you're not sure you can get.

It doesn't win you rounds but doesn't leave you out of the game either, if they're hitting you out of flame aura just outside range i need to see where.

Can you get some footage of it and upload it from your PS4? just that tiny part, with visual data i can provide better feedback too.

 

[OutworldKeith]

let me clarify, I'm strictly Hellfire sorry (no Ginsu's here)

Hater lol.

Wish I could help man. Didn't they make jumping normals more punishable on block if done on the way up?

 

[OutworldKeith]

That's seems tough for hellfire due to his lack of range. I haven't labbed it so I don't know if this works but have you tried jk him out of it?

Characters with really good NJPs were one of the best reasons to run Ninjutsu over Hellfire.

I used to get blown up by Kung Jin's NJP in HF.

 

[OutworldKeith]

You need to read that NJP and trip guard punish with ex TP. But if he is outside of Flame Aura's range, and is jumping straight up, don't give yourself the trouble, let him land into db2 which is unblockable.

Lots of people that jumps straight up to bait a trip guard can be beaten the same exact way.

Couldn't they still jump out of that unblockable setup anyway?

I feel like Ninjutsu is a better MU against F/T with the exception of lackey. B2 makes all the difference & can stop F/T from controlling space with NJP. You have to respect it in HF.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Couldn't they still jump out of that unblockable setup anyway?

I feel like Ninjutsu is a better MU against F/T with the exception of lackey. B2 makes all the difference & can stop F/T from controlling space with NJP. You have to respect it in HF.

They want to block teleport afterwards to not get hit by it, so unless they see everything in slo-mo they hardly will try to move away from it, considering, jumping forward, puts you in risk of getting trip guarded with ex tp, something they were fishing in first place, or getting caught in flame aura, reason they jumped straight up to avoid it in first place.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@I GOT HANDS
I went into the lab, & this is what I found.

F/T has a very floaty jump.
EX TP on reaction is very practical.
Instant NJP can be neutral crouched.
Delayed NJP can't be neutral crouched.​

If you neutral crouch it you can easily trip guard with d4. You can also punish with f3 but required great reactions plus a good read.

@Eddy Wang was correct with the ex tp punish though.

​

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Doing Trip Guards with TP requires a good prediction skill though, i don't advise it to anyone who doesn't have them that much, still, walking away from the range of NJP and hellfire him on the land should be far more safe, surely less rewarding that betting a meter on a punish you're not sure you can get.

It doesn't win you rounds but doesn't leave you out of the game either, if they're hitting you out of flame aura just outside range i need to see where.

Can you get some footage of it and upload it from your PS4? just that tiny part, with visual data i can provide better feedback too.

No, I can play like that, make big reads of the TP, but I want to know what else we got

I'm getting the vibe that this is simply a difficult MU for Hellfire and we gotta take some big risks to get in

ill try put some footage up, I can't upload the gameplay it was yesterday but I can make a video demonstrating

Characters with really good NJPs were one of the best reasons to run Ninjutsu over Hellfire.

I used to get blown up by Kung Jin's NJP in HF.

Yeah, to be honest I'm not stuck on the character by any means I can deal with him just fine CSZ, however I do prefer to find a way through the challenge rather than give up with Scorp and I'm trying to work out how to play around this.

@I GOT HANDS
I went into the lab, & this is what I found.

F/T has a very floaty jump.
EX TP on reaction is very practical.
Instant NJP can be neutral crouched.
Delayed NJP can't be neutral crouched.​

If you neutral crouch it you can easily trip guard with d4. You can also punish with f3 but required great reactions plus a good read.

@Eddy Wang was correct with the ex tp punish though.

​

Trying to make a read on insta or delayed NjP for the sake of a D4 (a D4 that guarantees nothing I might add) seems like a pretty terrible risk/reward.

I'm testing NjP now I thought it was unreactable but maybe it just is, hard for me to tell I'm playing with an old LCD flatscreen and the online delay set to on, so thats probably costing me a few reacting frames, I can sort get it if I'm absolutely ready but its not distinguishable from just unblock S1 reblock to bait it out and the F/T i was playing against was doing this, but REGARDLESS it doesn't punish it from IN RANGE of NjP you just get popped out.

Also in regards to this:

They want to block teleport afterwards to not get hit by it, so unless they see everything in slo-mo they hardly will try to move away from it, considering, jumping forward, puts you in risk of getting trip guarded with ex tp, something they were fishing in first place, or getting caught in flame aura, reason they jumped straight up to avoid it in first place.

he had learned that his NjP beats both Flame Aura and Hellfire, so he would block and when he sees this similar animation just neutral jump. Any tips there?





As far as footage goes ill try replay him, its was very fun either way and he was definitely good with his character.



I've learned a couple of things since labbing the MU that weren't super obvious before, but notably if he uses his "safe armor" during the gap on 214, its actually unsafe, just Jump Forward after 21 and block, then run after him and you get a free 214 punish, even with no stamina its an easy punish with Chain. In fact it runs him so far up screen that it has a very good chance of putting him in the corner and Scorp gets 40% meterless off 214 in the corner, so this is definitely key tech for this MU I couldn't pressure him for shit and on read of armor I was just blocking.

 

[JDE]

Uhhh...214fbrc jails into another 214,b3 and others. Considering how good 21 is as a stagger string (21 followed with a b12 is really hard to poke out of), the ridiculous damage he has even meterless, +18 adv standing reset after virtually any combo, increased chip due to flame aura, broken jump in kick, 6 frame poke, guaranteed vortex after 123fbrc, 214fbrc, f3 fbrc on BLOCK, and the most ridiculous, a +5 dash cancel on BLOCK( 214,123,21,f3 fbdc followed up with a b12 cannot be poked out of by majority of the cast) and you've an almost OP pressure character, definitely the best in the game at this point.

But 214 (once again) can be armored. Just people don't think to do it as a hard read. Which is expected since these are new changes. See, I didn't mention him being good or bad. I said he's not OP. I don't call a move being +2 on block but armor-reversible OP. 21 is pressure plus yes which is great but him using FBRC to jail at a constant rate will not happen once people figure out how to reverse him.

Him being + on most of his strings make him a frame trapping character. That's his pressure

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Uhhh...214fbrc jails into another 214,b3 and others. Considering how good 21 is as a stagger string (21 followed with a b12 is really hard to poke out of), the ridiculous damage he has even meterless, +18 adv standing reset after virtually any combo, increased chip due to flame aura, broken jump in kick, 6 frame poke, guaranteed vortex after 123fbrc, 214fbrc, f3 fbrc on BLOCK, and the most ridiculous, a +5 dash cancel on BLOCK( 214,123,21,f3 fbdc followed up with a b12 cannot be poked out of by majority of the cast) and you've an almost OP pressure character, definitely the best in the game at this point.

just so much misinformation here

his pressure is like the most telegraphed in the game, the gap NEVER changes and there is no way to make it change other than stopping pressure

21 followed by B12 is not hard to poke out of, if your scorpion opponent presses B12 to literally a 1 frame link of accuracy, you still have a 3 frame window to poke out assuming the average 7f poke, but no matter what you ALWAYS have more frames of leniency than Scorpion player does, so the statement that its hard to poke out of is complete bs

there is no guaranteed vortex on block from 123, 214, or F3. a). there is literally a gap for all of them RC'd into anything so nothing is guaranteed b.) Hellfire does not even have a vortex anywhere he doesn't even have a 50/50 c.) even if he did how the hell would this be a vortex opener if you BLOCKED it

 

[JDE]

just so much misinformation here

his pressure is like the most telegraphed in the game, the gap NEVER changes and there is no way to make it change other than stopping pressure

21 followed by B12 is not hard to poke out of, if your scorpion opponent presses B12 to literally a 1 frame link of accuracy, you still have a 3 frame window to poke out assuming the average 7f poke, but no matter what you ALWAYS have more frames of leniency than Scorpion player does, so the statement that its hard to poke out of is complete bs

there is no guaranteed vortex on block from 123, 214, or F3. a). there is literally a gap for all of them RC'd into anything so nothing is guaranteed b.) Hellfire does not even have a vortex anywhere he doesn't even have a 50/50 c.) even if he did how the hell would this be a vortex opener if you BLOCKED it

Yes, I couldn't respond to this well since I was using my cell phone but I was going to explain that as well. Thank you

 

[TyCarter35]

Couldn't they still jump out of that unblockable setup anyway?

I feel like Ninjutsu is a better MU against F/T with the exception of lackey. B2 makes all the difference & can stop F/T from controlling space with NJP. You have to respect it in HF.

What does ninjutsu lack against lackey or HF can do better against lackey than ninjutsu? Is it still a good MU in general?

 

[OutworldKeith]

What does ninjutsu lack against lackey or HF can do better against lackey than ninjutsu? Is it still a good MU in general?

F/T has great range especially on his NJP. It's not easily punished & can take control of the neutral. Ninjutsu's B2 destroys whiffed NJP, so that's something he doesn't have to deal with in that variation.

I'm not saying Lackey wins against NIN or HF. I excluded it because Lackey doesn't have the same NJP.

I don't think F/T is a difficult/bad MU at all. He doesn't run all over Scorpion.

 

[TyCarter35]

Anyone know how to get out of the Kotal b122 ex sunstone which seems to be able to jail and looks like it's in Kotal's favor. What's Scorp's best option against it, at least in the corner?

 

[P3irce]

Was playing around and found this, pretty nifty if it wasn't already know given how strong s3 is now. Without meter I've gotten 37% into tele

 

[Xzyj]

Was playing around and found this, pretty nifty if it wasn't already know given how strong s3 is now. Without meter I've gotten 37% into tele

lol, wtf is that hit advantage, damn i can't wait till i can buy ps4 mkxl, stuck on PC :e