General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Creepy00]

Actually Ermac can punish all ice clone cancels, except for f4 ice clone, with regular Lift. No need to meter burn it.

Ree, you were right all along. He does lift across all variation, with mystic having in its own version of lift. Derp again.

 

[JesterSMX]

Kung Jin can punish every clone cancel (besides f4 xx clone) with b1. Irregardless of the damage the punish does, it takes most clone cancels away from Sub, which puts the MU in Kung Jin's favor. He's got a few other metered punishes too, like Bo Spin and ex low chaka-rang.

That's not to say it's horrible though. You should force the opponent to prove he knows the MU and go from there. Once they do, use ex clone cancels and attempt punish the b1 pokes to make a mind game out of it. Or even refrain from canceling strings into clone, then use an armored move to punish a reaction. Once Kung Jin is cornered, Sub Zero can win same as always.

Or you could use Cryo and just dish out 40% per touch, whichever.

I'm a Shaolin main and feel pretty good about the matchup until I get put in the corner. If there's not a good interactable I panic. Ive been labbing clone cancel punishes on hit and block recently and it seems b1 can put you into the clone on a few occasions. Db 4 (the long bow sweep not cartwheel) goes under every clone but I think its too slow to not be vulnerable. I've looked for the frame data but haven't found anything reliable. Do you know the frames on clone cancels?

 

[RM Ree]

I'm a Shaolin main and feel pretty good about the matchup until I get put in the corner. If there's not a good interactable I panic. Ive been labbing clone cancel punishes on hit and block recently and it seems b1 can put you into the clone on a few occasions. Db 4 (the long bow sweep not cartwheel) goes under every clone but I think its too slow to not be vulnerable. I've looked for the frame data but haven't found anything reliable. Do you know the frames on clone cancels?

I don't know the exact frame data on the clone cancels, but a while back I tested all of Sub Zero's strings cancelled into clone and listed them from best to worst. I think I posted them in response to a Kung Jin player too (@stamatis ?).

If he/ anyone else doesn't recall, I'll make a thread about these clone cancels and gradually update it with punishes for each character of the kast. However, I'm going to wait for KP2 before I post the project, just in case any last minute GM changes debut.

 

[JesterSMX]

I don't know the exact frame data on the clone cancels, but a while back I tested all of Sub Zero's strings cancelled into clone and listed them from best to worst. I think I posted them in response to a Kung Jin player too (@stamatis ?).

If he/ anyone else doesn't recall, I'll make a thread about these clone cancels and gradually update it with punishes for each character of the kast. However, I'm going to wait for KP2 before I post the project, just in case any last minute GM changes debut.

Thx

 

[RM Ree]

I found it... Was curious myself. There was a bit more to this post, but I edited out the fluff and left specifically what you mentioned @JesterSMX. I geared it more towards Bojutsu when I wrote it but I know Shaolin has some good strings off b1. If you investigate this further, please let us know what you find!

Clone punishes: Any clone cancel can be punished with normal bo swing or MB Bo Swing for ~32%. Any raw clone attempt mid screen or further should be met with (premptive) Straight Shots to destroy clone and earn Kung Jin 4 full seconds of clone cool down time in order to approach. Adjust accordingly as the match progresses (bait after clone actions like slides, mb ice blast, etc.).

Low Cancel Advantage Clone:

• f33 xx clone - Punished with ji1 (ji1, 111 xx bf4, jd4, b21 xx db3 ~33%)
• 123 xx clone - Punished with ji1 (see above).

Moderate Cancel Advantage Clone:

• d4 xx clone - Punished with ji1 (see above).
• 12 xx clone - Punished with b14 (b14 xx db3 ~ 21%).
• b33 xx clone - Punished with b1 (b1 xx db3 ~ 19%).
• 24 xx clone - Punished with b14 (see above).
• b12 xx clone - Punished with b2 (see above).
• f42 xx clone - Punished with b1 (see above).

High Cancel advantage Clone:

• f4 xx clone (safe) - No punish, but able to begin pressure with ji1.

 

[stamatis]

I don't know the exact frame data on the clone cancels, but a while back I tested all of Sub Zero's strings cancelled into clone and listed them from best to worst. I think I posted them in response to a Kung Jin player too (@stamatis ?).

If he/ anyone else doesn't recall, I'll make a thread about these clone cancels and gradually update it with punishes for each character of the kast. However, I'm going to wait for KP2 before I post the project, just in case any last minute GM changes debut.

I'm a Shaolin main and feel pretty good about the matchup until I get put in the corner. If there's not a good interactable I panic. Ive been labbing clone cancel punishes on hit and block recently and it seems b1 can put you into the clone on a few occasions. Db 4 (the long bow sweep not cartwheel) goes under every clone but I think its too slow to not be vulnerable. I've looked for the frame data but haven't found anything reliable. Do you know the frames on clone cancels?

Kung jin's b1 can punish the clone cancels,if you are too bold you can full combo punish him with this starter.
Db4 is nice but it is a big risk since it is -18.
You can also jip(2) if he is right behind the clone.
The best move is the EX low sacram since it safe and low.
Anyway let's be honest here sub zero is really strong in the corner so you must respect him.But shaolin is the variation with the best tools to deal with Grandmaster.

 

[ArmageddonUMK]

Actually Ermac can punish all ice clone cancels, except for f4 ice clone, with regular Lift. No need to meter burn it.

Ree, you were right all along. He does lift across all variation, with mystic having in its own version of lift. Derp again.

When I labbed it awhile ago I couldn't punish with regular lift, but ex lift worked. It didn't make sense to me because they have the same frames apparently. I'd thought it might've been a mistake in the frame data but maybe I was just botching the timing repeatedly. Good to know

 

[Dankster Morgan]

So apparently that goofy fuck reptile can ex slide reversal Klone shatter. I was under the impression that it was slightly plus. Do we know the actually data in Klone shatter?

 

[RM Ree]

So apparently that goofy fuck reptile can ex slide reversal Klone shatter. I was under the impression that it was slightly plus. Do we know the actually data in Klone shatter?

I believed shatter to be +1. Can you elaborate a bit on the situation? The reason I ask is because when ice burst shatters clone while both attacks are in ambiguously close proximity of an opponent, shatter is hard coded to hit first. In these cases, opponents can punish ice burst block frames instead of shatter.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I believed shatter to be +1. Can you elaborate a bit on the situation? The reason I ask is because when ice burst shatters clone while both attacks are in ambiguously close proximity of an opponent, shatter is hard coded to hit first. In these cases, opponents can punish ice burst block frames instead of shatter.

Ok. Probably ice burst block frames. I'll get back with you tomorrow and experament some more.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I believed shatter to be +1. Can you elaborate a bit on the situation? The reason I ask is because when ice burst shatters clone while both attacks are in ambiguously close proximity of an opponent, shatter is hard coded to hit first. In these cases, opponents can punish ice burst block frames instead of shatter.

Reptile can't punish you at starting distance and back, but anywhere more than a slight step past starting distance he can punish you. It's still not worth the risk and meter for reptile but it's something to beware.
Edit: when referring to distance, I meant where I deployed the Klone and did the burst without moving after dropping the Klone.

 

[boba_buster]

Will icebal eat a hit of armor? Like if the try armoring threw a clone and you throw and iceball? I know the clone will if the hit the clone first but what if the ice ball hits first? Will it eat the armor and let the clone freeze them?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Will icebal eat a hit of armor? Like if the try armoring threw a clone and you throw and iceball? I know the clone will if the hit the clone first but what if the ice ball hits first? Will it eat the armor and let the clone freeze them?

In theory yeah but that would never stuff wakeups

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Do you guys ever pressure with sub zero midscreen? Or just 50/50.

 

[boba_buster]

Sub has 0 pressure

 

[boba_buster]

All of subs block strings are negative except for f12 , and all of his specials are negative

 

[RM Ree]

Staggering stand 1 works a lot of the time. You don't necessarily have to have + strings/ normals to pressure. You just have to disrupt the opponents cadence with something they haven't seen before.

For example; everyone has seen Sub Zero's 123 string, and they'll wait for it. If you throw just stand 1, there's a split second of confusion for say, a throw or another stand 1.

Another example is f4 xx clone. It's not +, but any retaliation would result in a freeze/ armor break. There's a good time to apply pressure as well.

If you're really going for the kill and have 3 bars to burn and are certain chip/ pressure will kill, X-ray is always + at least 19.

 

[boba_buster]

X-ray , that 3 bar pressure blockstrings into 50/50 lol
Sometimes I jus feel like sub got shit on still in this game

 

[Dankster Morgan]

X-ray , that 3 bar pressure blockstrings into 50/50 lol
Sometimes I jus feel like sub got shit on still in this game

Sub is undoubtedly a top 10-15 character he's just fair.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Anyone else getting reamed by ferratorr?

 

[UsedForGlue]

Do you guys ever pressure with sub zero midscreen? Or just 50/50.

Sub Zero has no pressure.

He cannot tick grab or stagger from any strings, except doing standing 1, but 11 is -4 with tons of recovery, 112 is -9 and 114 is -13 or something, so if he does standing 1, nothing can really come of it. Only Cryo can make use of 12.

You have to punish, push to corner or 50/50, this obviously hurts Unbreakable and Cryo massively.

 

[boba_buster]

Sub Zero has no pressure.

He cannot tick grab or stagger from any strings, except doing standing 1, but 11 is -4 with tons of recovery, 112 is -9 and 114 is -13 or something, so if he does standing 1, nothing can really come of it. Only Cryo can make use of 12.

You have to punish, push to corner or 50/50, this obviously hurts Unbreakable and Cryo massively.

Thank you ,
I try not to down play sub and yes he is not low tier but no he is not top tier , it's just the simple fact that he does not have many of the options that other characters have in this game. Yes he has clone in GM to make up for this but his other variations suffer greatly from the fact that all his string are negative , and his strings are negative to balance the clone , that's the only reason his normals are the way they are and that's not fair to cryo and unbreakable

 

[RagingRicans]

Sub-zero does have "pressure" just not in the traditional sense. Using the frame advantage on pokes to set up mix ups or a safe clone set up. Clone toss on hit is + on block so you can steadily continue advancing or check them with another normal. There's ways to keep Subs at advantage safely.

 

[TheEighth]

Sub-zero does have "pressure" just not in the traditional sense. Using the frame advantage on pokes to set up mix ups or a safe clone set up. Clone toss on hit is + on block so you can steadily continue advancing or check them with another normal. There's ways to keep Subs at advantage safely.

You can jump or punish the clone toss on reaction tho.. Sub does not have pressure unless you spend bar on ex ice clone and even then it's iffy.. His offense is pretty limited in every aspect compared to anyone else lol why is s2 -10?!

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You can jump or punish the clone toss on reaction tho.. Sub does not have pressure unless you spend bar on ex ice clone and even then it's iffy.. His offense is pretty limited in every aspect compared to anyone else lol why is s2 -10?!

But Klone shatter is safe. All that is because he had the best corner game in mkx