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General/Other - Ferra/Torr The Ferra/Torr [Block Infinite] challenge thread

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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Sure, but if it comes down to a just frame timing to escape and you lose 40-60% (lord Paulo Kreygasm) for mashing out in correctly, then isn't that something that may need to be looked at?
I can probably get it 70-30 or better right now without more than 3 inputs, being a down block for the third hit and a down + 2 for takeda.

This kinda reminds me of the time Tom Brady made a video about Quan's pseudo unblockable and Dink made a rebuttal video but the timing was completely altered.

I'm gonna need you to be more honest here, doomcucks.
I've done my best to get it as close as Raptor had it and cover multiple options and spacings to ensure there was nothing missed.
Infinite does not exist, don't know how else to put it. The argument that I can't get it frame perfect to Raptor so its invalid is incredibly moot since its a controlled environment and I'm blocking in a way that actually makes sense in a match (A.K.A. being mindful of our new low option and knowing that duck-blocking the third hit pushes Torr back) instead of stand blocking the entire thing.

Maybe thats the difference, and maybe he should try labbing with a ducking block on the third hit and see if that changes anything. Maybe he should figure out exactly when blockstun ends, maybe its just that I've been using the character so long that I know the moment I can move again and he doesn't.

Any amount of things can be given to why he can't get out but I can. However, fact of the matter is that at the end of the day if this IS real and it DOES come down to just one frame and the perfect set-up and the opponent stand blocking the entire thing and playing one of four characters and possibly having the perfect delay on b.1 and the opponent deciding to mash a move and happening not to trade, then I'd rather not be sold that it "needs to get looked at".

It's more than obviously clear that he's delaying F/T's b1 longer than he should in the video... reversal throws can't be timed like he mentioned either, they just get stuffed.
Then if I blew up b.121xxOH toss b.1212 without any delay, would you say its busted or no?
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Raiden had the same thing that only worked on a select few of the cast and it got nerfed to the ground because of it.

No one is safe mwuahahah
 

Sultani

Warrior
I'm gonna set this up for myself when I get home. Gonna try the delayed version and the faster version. then I'll see I guess.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
Then if I blew up b.121xxOH toss b.1212 without any delay, would you say its busted or no?
I don't think it's busted, it's busted for Takeda because he doesn't have a low profile answer for the non-delayed version. So personally I'd just say it's a bad MU for Takeda. It can be easily fixed for him but then it'll be a lesser threat to the rest of the roster.
Depending on buffs he may or may not be getting in the future patch, having this could be too much.. Imo.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I don't think it's busted, it's busted for Takeda because he doesn't have a low profile answer for the non-delayed version. So personally I'd just say it's a bad MU for Takeda. It can be easily fixed for him but then it'll be a lesser threat to the rest of the roster.
Depending on buffs he may or may not be getting in the future patch, having this could be too much.. Imo.
Not busted as in broken.

I'm saying if I, as Takeda, can blow up b.121xxOH toss b.1212 with no delay between those two strings.
Would you agree, or not agree, that the infinite isn't a thing, since Takeda is fully capable of blowing up an even faster string?

Damn I think doombawkz thought I was rampage, RIP. For the sake of it, I'd like to see what happens in the mirror, with and without lackey variation.
Apologies.

Lackey always has d.1 as an answer, other variations can trade b.1s or do a standing 2.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Why the hell is @Doombawkz being attacked cuz he has better execution than @Red Raptor or anyone else trying to prove him wrong??

I'm beginning to see why people talk so much shit about TYM.
Its not execution. Its an almost invisible difference between when I press a button and when they do. Well maybe.
I'm pretty sure as far as raptor goes its just because he stand blocked the whole thing and didn't get the spacing provided.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
stand blocked the whole thing
I will say this, this mechanic of duck/stand blocking altering frame data needs to go, for everyone. It makes things too inconsistent, and situations like these (albeit completely fair imo) become very finnicky to deal with, for both sides. I don't want any less advantage from them ducking or whatever than they want more block stun just cuz they were trying to read a low throw.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
Not busted as in broken.

I'm saying if I, as Takeda, can blow up b.121xxOH toss b.1212 with no delay between those two strings.
Would you agree, or not agree, that the infinite isn't a thing, since Takeda is fully capable of blowing up an even faster string?
With no delay, in the corner, Takeda only has 1 armor option, and it's between b121<armor>Toss-b1212 . His armor even breaks on b12 after Toss. He can't jump, can't poke, can't uppercut, can't backdash, can't throw.
 

InFlames

dead
Why the hell is @Doombawkz being attacked cuz he has better execution than @Red Raptor or anyone else trying to prove him wrong??

I'm beginning to see why people talk so much shit about TYM.
Honestly I'm sensing huge bias in the F/T community. Anytime someone posts a video to counter Doom's claims they are immediately told they're mistiming it. Yet I haven't seen anyone except for Pryce question Doom's timing.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
With no delay, in the corner, Takeda only has 1 armor option, and it's between b121<armor>Toss-b1212 . His armor even breaks on b12 after Toss. He can't jump, can't poke, can't uppercut, can't backdash, can't throw.
Try crouch blocking the last 2 hits of b.121.
then duck.

Torr should be pushed back enough to where b.1 won't connect again.
This forces the step forward, which frees up frames. d.2 will then likely trade with his next b.1 after the step, and you can also do a grab on it.

You can manipulate how close or far Torr is, and with that you can also manipulate what options he has. This is pretty powerful and something no one seems to mention.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Honestly I'm sensing huge bias in the F/T community. Anytime someone posts a video to counter Doom's claims they are immediately told they're mistiming it. Yet I haven't seen anyone except for Pryce question Doom's timing.
Its not so much bias as it is like the two videos posted against me were yours which it looked like you were mistiming it (since ferra's block timing is awkward) and I don't remember the other one.
People have openly been questioning my timing the entire time. My spacing, everything. All fair points, but all forgetting that if we assume an infinite exists because it only works in one scenario, we need to test other scenarios as well.

Infinite is a serious accusation, it carries a lot of weight and, with it, a lot of trouble.
If we are going to make that claim, we'd better be damn sure we do as much testing as we can.
We need to test everything. I do mean everything. We can't just take it as is with stand blocking, we have to realize that crouch blocking makes a difference. A rather big one.

The amount of crouch blocks you do matter, because it determines how far Torr has to step forward, how many frames he takes to shift from moving to neutral again. It determines how long he has to wait for Ferra to get on his back. For some characters, it determines if you can do a fast jab or uppercut to get out. For others, it means you can abuse that step for a punish and a full combo.

If you crouch block the last hit, you have to consider the block stun is different than if you are standing. If you block another attack into it, the advantage changes there too. f.2xxOH toss is like +10, b.12xxOh toss is like +6, this is like +4, so on.

Lots to look at if we are going to play around with the idea of something that would require a drastic change. More than a video of someone stand blocking with Takeda and trying pokes.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Before someone gets the wrong idea, I don't hate Raptor. He is still a player worthy of respect, and his work with Takeda cannot be denied.
I also will admit that if you do stand block the entire thing, your options are basically nil. You DO have to crouch block to be able to do anything.

He was right in the way he presented it that, indeed, one can assume its an infinite or a psuedo-infinite in that specific circumstance.

I will also admit that my timing wasn't as perfect as I'd have liked, I'm not used to playing with a lot of these characters. Also because I know about the pushback on crouch, that shifted my stance and views, and ultimately my evidence. I apologize to people whom I debated since the videos were indeed fairly different and represented different sides of this.

I won't apologize for making the thread because this DOES need to be researched before we can make those brash claims about infinites. We do need to explore what happens when you crouch block certain things or certain timings, it must be done.

Still, for the sake of it I've cooled down and had some steak, and see I was out of line and wanted to make an apology.
Lets figure this one out together.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Honestly I'm sensing huge bias in the F/T community. Anytime someone posts a video to counter Doom's claims they are immediately told they're mistiming it. Yet I haven't seen anyone except for Pryce question Doom's timing.
We're bias cuz we know what the fuck we're talking about. We have a bunch of people who don't main the character, who hardly even noticed the character(some even want him removed for some nostalgia character from MK9) up until he was added to the beta. Coming in and telling us that tech we've had since day 1 is broke. I'm not saying we're perfect (whatever that Jacqui issue goes to show that, but there are important differences), but just because you can't figure out or execute your options doesn't mean there is no option.

Aftershock tremor back jump low shock shit is bs and I fucking hate it as F/T as I almost never can get my timing or blocks right, but I am banging pots and making noise over my failings as a player? No, I accept that I have an area of improvement and I move on.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
Try crouch blocking the last 2 hits of b.121.
then duck.
Tried this.. and the poke actually hits for Takeda.
Pretty consistently* too, it also works if you only block the last 1 in b121-toss.
I then went to practice using a 6fr poke character (Ermac, Shinnok, Quan Chi) and couldn't land it once.

So from what I get from this is, Takeda has increased pushback on his blocks..?
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
We're bias cuz we know what the fuck we're talking about. We have a bunch of people who don't main the character, who hardly even noticed the character(some even want him removed for some nostalgia character from MK9) up until he was added to the beta. Coming in and telling us that tech we've had since day 1 is broke. I'm not saying we're perfect (whatever that Jacqui issue goes to show that, but there are important differences), but just because you can't figure out or execute your options doesn't mean there is no option.

Aftershock tremor back jump low shock shit is bs and I fucking hate it as F/T as I almost never can get my timing or blocks right, but I am banging pots and making noise over my failings as a player? No, I accept that I have an area of improvement and I move on.
Calm down. Calm down.

Its understandable why he would think that.

We don't need to call him out for it, he is somewhat right. The reason it seems like that is because the people who are defending it happen to be the Ferra/Torr players. Its more that we've spent more time with the character, feel stronger about it, and have a bit more lab time under our belts. We tend to attack like a bunch of pygmy children with sharp gloves, but our job isn't to punish them, its to educate them.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Tried this.. and the poke actually hits for Takeda.
Pretty consistently* too, it also works if you only block the last 1 in b121-toss.
I then went to practice using a 6fr poke character (Ermac, Shinnok, Quan Chi) and couldn't land it once.

So from what I get from this is, Takeda has increased pushback on his blocks..?

Its more about blocking animations. Takeda extends his out so Torr can't enter that space, it pushes him further back.
Its like how Cassie and Kotal stagger for extra frames because of the way they move on block you can force yourself into that gap and it takes them an extra frame or two for the game to shift you out of the space their characters need to be in.


For shinnok, try blocking duck -> duck -> stand -> stand.
Same for Quan.
 
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Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Calm down. Calm down.

Its understandable why he would think that.

We don't need to call him out for it, he is somewhat right. The reason it seems like that is because the people who are defending it happen to be the Ferra/Torr players. Its more that we've spent more time with the character, feel stronger about it, and have a bit more lab time under our belts. We tend to attack like a bunch of pygmy children with sharp gloves, but our job isn't to punish them, its to educate them.
Sorry @Doombawkz, just trying to help a fellow Ferra/Torr-ian out. I assure you that I go out of my way online to help people with our matchup, if they don't respect it I always tell them that it's +6, where there is/isn't a hole, how to get around our njp, etc.

You're right tho. The reason I'm getting heated about this is pretty much what I stated that you replied to. Your failings as a player shouldn't require another character to be nerfed. I'm not great, there are so many set ups and situations that I just can't get around/out of, but I don't bring that to that characters community and say "wah, here's this one specific situation with just this one character and I can't do anything about so it needs to go" without doing some extensive research first.

I'm just worried this bandwagon of #NerfFerra/Torr, I hear it all over TYM and in my local FB chat group, is actually gonna pay off and the F/T WILL ACTUALLY BE C TIER
 
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