General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Juanchaaa]

For any Sub Zero Master and/or Padawan, I made (more or less) a MU strategy guide for Kenshi Vs SZ; it heavily punishes his special cancelable moves since it has so much start up. This may be old new for you guys, but would really appreciate the feedback since I don't want to be advertising false strategies. So please check it out.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/kenshi-vs-the-world.58021/

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

For any Sub Zero Master and/or Padawan, I made (more or less) a MU strategy guide for Kenshi Vs SZ; it heavily punishes his special cancelable moves since it has so much start up. This may be old new for you guys, but would really appreciate the feedback since I don't want to be advertising false strategies. So please check it out.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/kenshi-vs-the-world.58021/

what? you just show that his unsafe moves are unsafe

 

[RM Ree]

For any Sub Zero Master and/or Padawan, I made (more or less) a MU strategy guide for Kenshi Vs SZ; it heavily punishes his special cancelable moves since it has so much start up. This may be old new for you guys, but would really appreciate the feedback since I don't want to be advertising false strategies. So please check it out.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/kenshi-vs-the-world.58021/

- Illustrate where to punish/ where gaps exist, but only provide one near optimal option rather than several.
- Distinguish between "b33 xx ice ball ~ PUNISH" and "b33 ~PUNISH~ ex ice blast" (when to wait for post ice ball punish and when to punish the gap instead).
- As cool as it is, Kenshi mains know how much damage X-ray does and what it looks like. Don't let it play out.
- Further highlight how important b2 and clone cancel punishes are in this MU
- Mention where ex ice statue cancels make Sub-Zero safe (some cancels may even frame trap Kenshi as he attempts to react).
- Hip hop air horn couldn't hurt.

 

[Juanchaaa]

- Illustrate where to punish/ where gaps exist, but only provide one near optimal option rather than several.
- Distinguish between "b33 xx ice ball ~ PUNISH" and "b33 ~PUNISH~ ex ice blast" (when to wait for post ice ball punish and when to punish the gap instead).
- As cool as it is, Kenshi mains know how much damage X-ray does and what it looks like. Don't let it play out.
- Further highlight how important b2 and clone cancel punishes are in this MU
- Mention where ex ice statue cancels make Sub-Zero safe (some cancels may even frame trap Kenshi as he attempts to react).
- Hip hop air horn couldn't hurt.

Just did an Edit on the Ice Clone section; please check it out, will continue to improve those other areas you mentioned.

 

[Tweedy]

What's up guys, new to the character.

So......... Is staggering S1 into B2, or 12, a legit 50/50? Based on the game's frame data, it seems that it is.

 

[Scott The Scot]

What's up guys, new to the character.

So......... Is staggering S1 into B2, or 12, a legit 50/50? Based on the game's frame data, it seems that it is.

I'd get hit by it.

 

[RM Ree]

What's up guys, new to the character.

So......... Is staggering S1 into B2, or 12, a legit 50/50? Based on the game's frame data, it seems that it is.

It sounds plausible, gimmicky maybe to really throw off an opponents cadence. I don't feel like it's a legit 50/50 though.

 

[crosshair271]

S1 is a high can be low profiled. I prefer D3 as it gives a low property. D3 makes S1 and D1 kinda worthless.

 

[Tweedy]

It sounds plausible, gimmicky maybe to really throw off an opponents cadence. I don't feel like it's a legit 50/50 though.

Not sure if it's too gimmicky when standing behind a klone, but yeah, midscreen it is.

The overhead is 17 frames, the low off of the S1 is 12. With S1 being 0 on block, I think that's legit. Maybe i'm a noob and i'm missing something.

 

[Creepy00]

Yea, doing it at midscreen is gimmicky.

Just watch Killstreak vs. Dab esl match, he only pulled it once or twice and got punish all the other times.

 

[RM Ree]

Not sure if it's too gimmicky when standing behind a klone, but yeah, midscreen it is.

The overhead is 17 frames, the low off of the S1 is 12. With S1 being 0 on block, I think that's legit. Maybe i'm a noob and i'm missing something.

From behind clone, I think it's a good option. I've recommended it actually, to Lord Brady himself. But in said position, I rarely intend to hit with the s1, I throw it to telegraph/ threaten a lunging low and proceed like you mentioned (either following through with 12 or doing b2, maybe even run up throw as their focus is the block button). Lol it's a unique position to be in that you can stagger whiffed normals.

In Cryo is where I think something like this would become more interesting. It stretches meter building a bit further, and it makes the opponent hesitate in anticipation of a 12 xx hammer. And that's hesitation means damage, one way or another.

Opponents can practice blocking mix ups all day, but we can reduce their mental capacity by throwing a few more odd factors in (like stagger s1) that they likely haven't practiced against. So many players are used to identifying strings, after which they're self-trained to think it's "their turn." If those strings never come, they tend to panic.

 

[Tweedy]

From behind clone, I think it's a good option. I've recommended it actually, to Lord Brady himself. But in said position, I rarely intend to hit with the s1, I throw it to telegraph/ threaten a lunging low and proceed like you mentioned (either following through with 12 or doing b2, maybe even run up throw as their focus is the block button). Lol it's a unique position to be in that you can stagger whiffed normals.

In Cryo is where I think something like this would become more interesting. It stretches meter building a bit further, and it makes the opponent hesitate in anticipation of a 12 xx hammer. And that's hesitation means damage, one way or another.

Opponents can practice blocking mix ups all day, but we can reduce their mental capacity by throwing a few more odd factors in (like stagger s1) that they likely haven't practiced against. So many players are used to identifying strings, after which they're self-trained to think it's "their turn." If those strings never come, they tend to panic.

After exploring this character a bit, it seems that Cryomancer should never be used by a serious player, unless they're like pro low tier hero monsters.

GM is just so good.

 

[RM Ree]

After exploring this character a bit, it seems that Cryomancer should never be used by a serious player, unless they're like pro low tier hero monsters.

GM is just so good.

Lol I thought that too. I was sent to losers in tournament by a Summoner Quan who knew the GM match-up. As a joke, I used Cryo from losers bracket, getting the idea from a lulzy friend. I unexpectedly burned through losers and reset the bracket on that same Quan in grand finals, only dropping 1 match the entire time. The best part about it was hearing the crowds reaction of "Quan is so broken." Then hearing it slowly shift to "Sub Zero does a lot of damage..." And finally at the end, "Crymoancer needs to be nerfed! He's a problem!"

Anyway, I think he has real potential and a place in the meta. There are absolutely MU's where I'd take Cryo over GM, females, notably D'vorah for example.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Is it still worth it to play sub-zero with all the issues he has? How much do the problems impact his game?

 

[zoofs]

Is it still worth it to play sub-zero with all the issues he has? How much do the problems impact his game?

completely viable, just definitely not worth it as a side char

if you wanna put in the time he's still good and his issues don't destroy his overall gameplan or anything

 

[Amplified$hotz]

completely viable, just definitely not worth it as a side char

if you wanna put in the time he's still good and his issues don't destroy his overall gameplan or anything

Thanks a lot. I've wanted to play him I've just heard all of this stuff about female combos, breathing hitboxes, etc. and just didn't want to lose matches because of bugs.

 

[llabslb]

So apparently b2,b2,d1,b12,clone,njp,jip,f12 now works on females in the beta. Can someone confirm?

 

[DSilv3R]

If that works... makes me worried about what they took away in exchange...

 

[RM Ree]

It could well be the B3,3, Iceball on females mid screen as seen in this Video in one of the Beta Threads here. Might be lag but could also be the 'trade off'. The wierd thing is it isn't Variation specific either. So If this isn't lag makes me wonder what Cryomancer and Unbreakable got as well.

I've had female characters block the first low, eat the second and then block the following ice ball, as seen in the video example. Strangely enough, I've had male characters do this same thing and the ice ball would combo.

I'm still skeptical. I need more substantial evidence, i.e. a clean b33 xx ice ball, blocked by Jacqui.

 

[Braindead]

I've had female characters block the first low, eat the second and then block the following ice ball, as seen in the video example. Strangely enough, I've had male characters do this same thing and the ice ball would combo.

I'm still skeptical. I need more substantial evidence, i.e. a clean b33 xx ice ball, blocked by Jacqui.

Yup, this.

Blocking one hit of B33 then getting hit with the other usually creates weird stuff for connecting/not connecting ice balls.

I doubt Sub-zero has been touched in this beta.

Unbreakable for sure wasn't changed (not the tools that are most suspect to be changed, at least), and I didn't see much of Cryo but his damage wasn't scaled or anything and I don't think there's anything to do with him.

I doubt they changed something drastic with GM, like ice clone comboing on females in the corner or changing the whole b33 xx ice ball midscreen thing.

Paulo trolled about GM nerfs, and if anything I just expect a small scaling on clone shatter combos.

My 2 centimeters.

 

[LiangHuBBB]

1:37
is this a glitch?

 

[Arzumis]

Iv heard that subzero can now do his optimal corner combos on females in the beta. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[RM Ree]

1:37
is this a glitch?

Yeah, probably. I think it has something to do with the clone occupying the shadow kicks hit box during the same frame Sub-Zero himself is there. Clone takes priority and the opponent is left kind of high and dry.

You can recreate this situation in training if you'd like. Select GM Sub-Zero vs. Jax (Any). AI Options: block set to always, reversal on and set to dash fist. Practice options: reset position set to right. Simply f4 xx ex clone, forward dash. Jax whiffs right in his face.

 

[Creepy00]

So, I don't know why the "beta changes to subzero" thread got closed, but here are the changes I noticed while playing the beta:
Grandmaster Subzero:

• +2% damage scaling on Ice shatter combos (i.e. b33~ ice shatter,1,f3~iceclone, njp, bjip, b12 does 40% instead of 42%)
• B33 and b2 ice shatter combos are possible and reliable.
• Ice clone seems to capture airborne characters better within corner combos and ice shatter combos.
• B2,B2,d1,B12 Iceclone works on females when done in the right height (?)

Cryo Subzero:

• D2 seems to be faster? I kinda looks like it.

Unbreakeable Sub

• Looks and plays the same. I didn't see any changes to his playstyle at all.

This may already been know, but at least you have a subzero main going through his changes and confirming any new changes

 

[boba_buster]

B12aurab12 is super easy now even with my crap connection