General/Other - Hat Trick Kung Lao Hat Trick Variation General Discussion

[God Confirm]

To be fair, sonic did know the MU, its just no one used the variation against him in so long he FORGOT what he needed to do in the MU, I wouldn't call it lack of matchup knowledge...

Is there a difference between "forgetting" and "not knowing"? Either way he didn't know how to play against the match up when it mattered. Not taking anything away from you either cause you outplayed him for sure! Just saying your skill and Sonics lack of knowledge on this one on the day made this variation look a lot better than it is

iirc correctly the things that you did and where you got your damage from weren't even really hat trick specific things. There isn't that much to know about hat trick anyways imo.

Sure, the Hatarangs into like 35% or something were nothing big, and the 112124hatarang112124 pressure loops doing more chip damage than Tempest gets, that Sonic didn't know you could poke/armour out of, also nothing big right? Hat trick literally has the best pressure in the game if you don't know where the gap is in there, Sonic looked lost af out there on this one, scar was spamming hatarang on block like he was free lol and Sonic had no respect for Hat tricks unique tools like hatarang or callbacks neither and it cost him big time.

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

Is there a difference between "forgetting" and "not knowing"? Either way he didn't know how to play against the match up when it mattered. Not taking anything away from you either cause you outplayed him for sure! Just saying your skill and Sonics lack of knowledge on this one on the day made this variation look a lot better than it is


Sure, the Hatarangs into like 35% or something were nothing big, and the 112124hatarang112124 pressure loops doing more c

Yes there is a difference from forgetting, & not knowing, if u forget then that means that u have the MU knowledge at ur disposal but u don't use the tools, to not know means u never knew u had the tools to use in the first place, look I'm well aware of how many gaps are in this variation, but even so I do believe this variation is viable, and I'm trying to somewhat alter its weaknesses by altering how it is played, no doubt u have to be very solid with it, especially against players who know the MU, but this variation is high speed and damn fun, which is why I play it..also I love setups lol, do you guys really believe if an opponent knows the MU, hat trick has no shot at winning?

 

[Youphemism]

Yes there is a difference from forgetting, & not knowing, if u forget then that means that u have the MU knowledge at ur disposal but u don't use the tools, to not know means u never knew u had the tools to use in the first place, look I'm well aware of how many gaps are in this variation, but even so I do believe this variation is viable, and I'm trying to somewhat alter its weaknesses by altering how it is played, no doubt u have to be very solid with it, especially against players who know the MU, but this variation is high speed and damn fun, which is why I play it..also I love setups lol, do you guys really believe if an opponent knows the MU, hat trick has no shot at winning?

We don't believe it has no shot at winning, it just has a much harder time at doing it. Its risk/reward is below average and the hat trap stuff is just too slow/unsafe (most of the time) to be used for pressure, you have to be super selective about what moves you use. Damn it I still need to get around to figuring out the frame data for all the hat trap cancels, this should be widely available information at this point :16Bit

 

[Duret]

We don't believe it has no shot at winning, it just has a much harder time at doing it. Its risk/reward is below average and the hat trap stuff is just too slow/unsafe (most of the time) to be used for pressure, you have to be super selective about what moves you use. Damn it I still need to get around to figuring out the frame data for all the hat trap cancels, this should be widely available information at this point :16Bit

Yeah I'd like to know the frames too

 

[The PantyChrist]

The jump kick divekick jk dk ender into hatarang was tight though

 

[Youphemism]

Well I went into the lab and got all the frame data for straight Hat Trap cancels on block for those of you that haven't seen it yet: http://testyourmight.com/threads/straight-hat-trap-cancel-frame-data.57542/

 

[Fluffyfawn3713]

Does anyone know the data of the uppercut without the hat.

 

[just_2swift]

 

[just_2swift]

 

[llabslb]

Is it me or does it take longer to set up a low hat than a mid hat?

 

[Youphemism]

Is it me or does it take longer to set up a low hat than a mid hat?

Not just you, low hat trap is slower than regular hat trap.

 

[STRYKIE]

Is it me or does it take longer to set up a low hat than a mid hat?

 

[Harlequin969]

The blood on that hat

 

[Eddy Wang]

(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth),(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth)

Well (soap bar in my mouth) definitely going to learn this combo, i have a setup with the Low hat where it could be possible to pull this off.

 

[just_2swift]

(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth),(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth)

Well (soap bar in my mouth) definitely going to learn this combo, i have a setup with the Low hat where it could be possible to pull this off.

Thanks man. It's very inconsistent with cassie iirc

 

[JDE]

I've seen several people use this variation & it seems according to them, you get safer pressure. Seems legit to me.

 

[God Confirm]

I've seen several people use this variation & it seems according to them, you get safer pressure. Seems legit to me.

Did you ask them for an explanation or did you just take their word for it? Because this makes no sense to me at all

 

[God Confirm]

(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth),(soap bar in my mouth), (soap bar in my mouth)

Well (soap bar in my mouth) definitely going to learn this combo, i have a setup with the Low hat where it could be possible to pull this off.

Why tho when you get 35% off the much easier NjP, B321~Hatcall, 4~Spin, JiK~DK, 21

 

[JDE]

Did you ask them for an explanation or did you just take their word for it? Because this makes no sense to me at all

No, I was just posting what was said about the variation by some people who I've seen play it. I haven't explored much of yet. Just Tempest.

What I typically see them do is toss out the hat & then go into something like the 112124 (I may have said this wrong, my apologizes) & then Ex call back, stuff like that when someone attempts to hit a button. And then they convert off of it. However, I don't know the advantages. I just seen how it works on PL's stream & when I fought Marshall Law & a few others. This is also who explained that it was safe pressure against maybe 80% of the cast.

 

[God Confirm]

No, I was just posting what was said about the variation by some people who I've seen play it. I haven't explored much of yet. Just Tempest.

What I typically see them do is toss out the hat & then go into something like the 112124 (I may have said this wrong, my apologizes) & then Ex call back, stuff like that when someone attempts to hit a button. And then they convert off of it. However, I don't know the advantages. I just seen how it works on PL's stream & when I fought Marshall Law & a few others. This is also who explained that it was safe pressure against maybe 80% of the cast.

Just letting you know thats extremely unsafe, you are negative even before calling it back, they will have time to go into their slowest move if you do that and on hit the hat call disappears. Tempest definitely wins on pressure

 

[Youphemism]

I've seen several people use this variation & it seems according to them, you get safer pressure. Seems legit to me.

You really don't unfortunately. EX call back is plus but that's about it, there are a few safe hat trap cancels but it's definitely not safer than the other two overall. I calculated the frame data for Hat Trap cancels on block, feel free to have a look: Straight Hat Trap Cancel Frame Data

 

[Sirius Jones]

Hat trick is very viable.you cant just pickup and play its very advanced but rewarding variation. Hat Trick is great because it controls the neutral game.I have played against PL Hat trick,tempest,buzzsaw and hat trick scares me the most.Of course it has some flaws and buffs are always welcomed .yes tempest is better but only for the facts tempest is his easiest variation it also the most straight damage as well as the most fear from ex spin.people die when they don't respect tempest that's the truth. @FCP/EMP SCAR If your free i would like to get some matches in with you your setups are sick

 

[Eddy Wang]

I played PL and lost, Hat Trick is viable, Sonic Fox lost to SCAR on esl hat trick is viable, it just takes more work.

Lets get a few things straight: Kung Lao universal tools (F2, B2, Spin, B321) are viable, and is what is making Hat Trick hold on his own right now, but that variation is not viable

The only time one should be afraid of hat trick is when you're knocked down and there is a hat behind your back, other than that there isn't much to be afraid of.

 

[Fluffyfawn3713]

How are you going to say the character is the making him viable and not the variation lol.

 

[Eddy Wang]

How are you going to say the character is the making him viable and not the variation lol.

Because KL overall has some powerfull tools by himself, F2 is 11f and is -1 on block, spin is 7 frames, every KL has that and is good enough to play exactly the same in the neutral.

The second you put a hat trap from a string the chances or success are very slim, he is at -5 minimum, you're suggested to withstand a lot of things against all odds, so you can't just simply put your trap anyway you desire, you have to be carefully plan the best moment to get your hat out, because the opponent can destroy you with a single poke to make it disappear, even after you call it back.

Hat Trick loses all his hat related tools with the hat out, this includes the overhead starter, the spin, the tele 2, the disjointed hitbox, and so on.

Hat Calls are incredibly flawed, there is only one reliable trap which is forward trap, but is also situational because the only time you will use the trap is when the opponent is down, which allows you to slip the hat behind him since with the opponent standing you're doing it at your own risk.

Above hat trap places the hat exactly above KL head, doesn't do anything, doesn't prevent jump ins, doesn't prevent mixups, nothing above hat trap is just there

Away hat trap is a gimmick, could work if he could could re connect strings while the hat is traveling back to his head, which would pratically fix the issue of being a sitting duck when hatless but no.

Besides the worst of it all, is that hitting someone with a raw HCB is still a issue, any trained player on HT on daily basis, will always poke out crouching, this minimizes the risk of being full combo launched by raw HCB, because:
a) The hat will whiff on neutral crouch or crouch block on some characters
b) The hat will hit you out of the poke, but you're crouching, so gravity juggle is greatly reduced which KL cannot capitalized on it
c) Best case scenario, you hit him out before the hat hits you, and you get to apply pressure afterwards.