General/Other - Cryomancer How to Improve Cryomancer

[UsedForGlue]

Why would you give less recovery to a fast, good range, hit confirmable mid that either changes sides in GM or does tons of damage in cryo? If you whiff something like that then you deserve to be punished.

I basically mean, F4 should recover faster, as it isn't a hit confirmable normal, and he needs a tick throw option.

 

[Goat-City]

can't believe I just read a post where someone suggested to nerf j2 which is actually a pretty trash air normal, ji1 can also be anti aired meterless by a majority of the cast, you just need to be more aware of the game you're playing

not even gonna start on anything else

I'll take your word for it, but from my own experience and according to many other people that doesn't seem true. You can technically but it's not reactable, which is why they should have a bit more start up each.

 

[Goat-City]

Everything is just so much wrong I don't even know where to begin.

I mean you think D1 should combo in the first place, which means you don't understand how this game works.

I literally can't even right now.

I already said I meant hit advantage. It should have 22 frames of hit advantage, NOT be plus 22 frames. I thought they were the same thing.

 

[Braindead]

I'll take your word for it, but from my own experience and according to many other people that doesn't seem true. You can technically but it's not reactable, which is why they should have a bit more start up each.

WTF you can't react to a jump? When you anti-air you anti-air the jump itself you don't wait to see what normal your opponent is going to do in the air and react to that.... What the fff....

 

[boba_buster]

Can a mod just delete this whole thread?

 

[Braindead]

I already said I meant hit advantage. It should have 22 frames of hit advantage, NOT be plus 22 frames. I thought they were the same thing.

Son even if it had 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 frames of hit advantage, it still wouldn't combo into anything.

Pokes. Don't. Combo. Into. Anything.

 

[Goat-City]

WTF you can't react to a jump? When you anti-air you anti-air the jump itself you don't wait to see what normal your opponent is going to do in the air and react to that.... What the fff....

If Sub Zero does a crossover jump 1, it connects so fast from such a high point that once you've realized they've jumped you have no more time to anti air it realistically.

 

[exflyingbooty]

You know what, fair enough i'll go over the most cringe worthy points

His Problems
2. He has no game plan other than trying to land a 50/50, which is bad because his normal overhead is both reactable and unsafe. Plus it's just boring and is too reliant on luck to succeed.

The absolute fastest the human eye can react too is 16 frames. That means the person JUST reacted because they were specifically looking for a b+2. In other games most overheads go around from 18 up to 27 frames. The fact you are complaining about a 16 frame overhead is beyond fucking infuriating because there's a slight chance in hell that a person with god like reactions actually fucking reacted.

Solutions

4. Extend the range of his d1 with an ice knife similar to Kitana's d1 change. Make it 7 or 8 frames instead of 9 and (edit*) give it 22 frames of hit advantage instead of 14 so it can combo with the 18 frame EX hammer or the 21 frame EX ice ball.

Ok, as a kitana main this is just aggrivating to read. I need my d+1 because i need a decent poke. My character doesn't have an overhead and i literally just have a jump in mixup which is reactable. Her close range combat is just ok because 2,1 is + on block and b+1,4 is good for stagger pressure. You have a 16 frame overhead where if someone does something negative guess what? Full combo if they didn't expect it. You can have this buff if you lose b+2.

1. Slightly nerf his J1 and J2 so they can be anti aired without the use of armor.

you're complaining about his j.1/2 when his j.3 exists?????

 

[boba_buster]

If Sub Zero does a crossover jump 1, it connects so fast from such a high point that once you've realized they've jumped you have no more time to anti air it realistically.

No... Just no

 

[Goat-City]

Son even if it had 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 frames of hit advantage, it still wouldn't combo into anything.

Pokes. Don't. Combo. Into. Anything.

OH shit now I get it, I didn't know that. Well I'll edit it out completely then.

 

[zoofs]

I'll take your word for it, but from my own experience and according to many other people that doesn't seem true. You can technically but it's not reactable, which is why they should have a bit more start up each.

j2 has 10f startup already, making it any worse would essentially give you johnnys jump ins

ji1 has 8f and that isn't even that fast for a jump in lol, there's a lot more to take in when changing anti airs than the actual startup frames on the jump attack coming out. You have way more than enough time to anti air those on reaction.

 

[exflyingbooty]

Fuck this thread, i'm catching feelings.

 

[Goat-City]

You know what, fair enough i'll go over the most cringe worthy points


The absolute fastest the human eye can react too is 16 frames. That means the person JUST reacted because they were specifically looking for a b+2. In other games most overheads go around from 18 up to 27 frames. The fact you are complaining about a 16 frame overhead is beyond fucking infuriating because there's a slight chance in hell that a person with god like reactions actually fucking reacted.




Ok, as a kitana main this is just aggrivating to read. I need my d+1 because i need a decent poke. My character doesn't have an overhead and i literally just have a jump in mixup which is reactable. Her close range combat is just ok because 2,1 is + on block and b+1,4 is good for stagger pressure. You have a 16 frame overhead where if someone does something negative guess what? Full combo if they didn't expect it. You can have this buff if you lose b+2.




you're complaining about his j.1/2 when his j.3 exists?????

I never asked for his b2 to be changed, I just said it's reactable. I've reacted to it so I just threw it out there, I don't want the move to be changed. And yeah I'm complaining about JIPs because from my tests and from apparent consensus among other users he nearly impossible to anti air on a crossover on reaction without armor.

 

[Gilbagz]

Cryo is fine in his current state
He's based around playing a solid neutral game with f4,2 b1,2 and d4
He has very solid normals between the above
He can pseduo pressure with the f1,2 series
Hes difficult to zone because of slide unless you have a mid fireball and the threat of ice ball trades
And when he touches you he gets stupid damage and a 12f safe jump into potential mix ups
And because you out damage most of the cast the risk reward is in your favour
On top of this ex ice burst is decently fast armour move that is safe against a large proportion of thr cast and launches for 27%
Also yes he doesnt have a meter build tool per se. But f4 hammer on block leaves you at -9 with good push back, does good chip, builds good bar, is a block string, and leads to a defensive mix up between back dash and ex burst. Of which is back dash is top 5 in the game.
He also has a 7f jab punish which leads to 40% and his aa jab leads ro 38%

If you play a good neutral game this character is really good. One touch is potentially because of the momentum he gets. Its not a guaranteed 5050 but the risk reward is heavily heavily in your favour.

The character is fine in his current state.
If you do buff him give him a 7f d1. And fix the whiffing of f122 against certain characters because of breathing hit boxes. Otherwise he's fine.

@Cabjoy pretty sure i covered all the basics.

 

[Goat-City]

Can a mod just delete this whole thread?

Censoring people you disagree with? Sounds fair.

 

[Goat-City]

Cryo is fine in he's current state
He's based around playing a solid neutral game with f4,2 b1,2 and d4
He has very solid normals between the above
He can pseduo pressure with the f1,2 series
Hes difficult to zone because of slide unless you have a mid fireball and the threat of ice ball trades
And when he touches you he gets stupid damage and a 12f safe jump into potential mix ups
And because you out damage most of the cast the risk reward is in your favour
On top of this ex ice burst is decently fast armour move that is safe against a large proportion of thr cast and launches for 27%
Also yes he doesnt have a meter build tool per se. But f4 hammer on block leaves you at -9 with good push back, does good chip, builds good bar, is a block string, and leads to a defensive mix up between back dash and ex burst. Of which is back dash is top 5 in the game.
He also has a 7f jab punish which leads to 40% and his aa jab leads ro 38%

If you play a good neutral game this character is really good. One touch is potentially because of the momentum he gets. Its not a guaranteed 5050 but the risk reward is heavily heavily in your favour.

The character is fine in his current state.
If you do buff him give him a 7f d1. And fix the whiffing of f122 against certain characters because of breathing hit boxes. Otherwise he's fine.

@Cabjoy pretty sure i covered all the basics.

He's not as good as Grandmaster, that should be obvious. It's ridiculous that you can jump over his EX hammer and punish it for a full combo. It's very reactable for a mixup tool that costs a bar. Give him a better d1, speed up the hammer, and give him a projectile. Those changes should put him on par with GM.

 

[Gilbagz]

He's not as good as Grandmaster, that should be obvious. It's ridiculous that you can jump over his EX hammer and punish it for a full combo. It's very reactable for a mixup tool that costs a bar. Give him a better d1, speed up the hammer, and give him a projectile. Those changes should put him on par with GM.

Yes its not as good as grandmaster because grandmaster instant wins the neutral
What it does have over grand master though is consistent damage every where
Grand master lives for the corner
If he can't maintain the corner he struggles (not saying its hard to get and keep the corner)
I'm just saying cryo is more well rounded across the stage

And ex hammer is NOT a mix up tool
Its your combo extender and hard read for armour
You already have b2 and b3
Yes b2 is borderline reactable
But you have to be focused 100% on that which means you're doing absolutely nothing but watching for it
Play cryo as a defensive footsie character and he does super well
Run in yolo 5050s works at the lower levels, but any decent player will punish your run in

 

[RM Truth]

When are people going to give up this silly notion that B2 is reactable. Has anyone even legitimately reacted to it once in a real match?

 

[Goat-City]

Yes its not as good as grandmaster because grandmaster instant wins the neutral
What it does have over grand master though is consistent damage every where
Grand master lives for the corner
If he can't maintain the corner he struggles (not saying its hard to get and keep the corner)
I'm just saying cryo is more well rounded across the stage

And ex hammer is NOT a mix up tool
Its your combo extender and hard read for armour
You already have b2 and b3
Yes b2 is borderline reactable
But you have to be focused 100% on that which means you're doing absolutely nothing but watching for it
Play cryo as a defensive footsie character and he does super well
Run in yolo 5050s works at the lower levels, but any decent player will punish your run in

Thanks for the constructive responses. Even outside the corner GM has great meter building and an easier time doing damage because he has the clone. Cryo does more consistent damage but he needs meter to do that damage. If the hammer wasn't meant to be a mix up tool then it wouldn't hit overhead. Using it after or during b33 on block is useless because you can just react to it. Cryo needs to be able to open you up better and he needs meter gain. He'll never be used in tournaments ever in his current state. He's just like MOS Ermac, completely reliant on correct guesses and gets heavily punished if they're wrong.

 

[cambros22]

Thanks for the constructive responses. Even outside the corner GM has great meter building and an easier time doing damage because he has the clone. Cryo does more consistent damage but he needs meter to do that damage. If the hammer wasn't meant to be a mix up tool then it wouldn't hit overhead. Using it after or during b33 on block is useless because you can just react to it. Cryo needs to be able to open you up better and he needs meter gain. He'll never be used in tournaments ever in his current state. He's just like MOS Ermac, completely reliant on correct guesses and gets heavily punished if they're wrong.

You sir need to lvl up..
Just because you have no success with cryo doesnt mean others do not.

 

[conqueror]

give him a better projectile thats all i would ask

 

[RagingRicans]

Sub Zeros jump 1 is insane guys lets be real. On paper it might not seem great, but that tracking is another story.

When it comes to anti airing, reacting to what normals a characters is using is important. Especially for characters who can change their trajectory like Sonya, Kitana, and Tremor.

I strongly believe sub was designed around GM because the other variations just don't work. They need to be severely overhauled imo

 

[Goat-City]

You sir need to lvl up..
Just because you have no success with cryo doesnt mean others do not.

It's not a matter of success, it's a matter of whether or not he's tournament viable and as good as GM, which he by far is not.

 

[Braindead]

It's not a matter of success, it's a matter of whether or not he's tournament viable and as good as GM, which he by far is not.

How can you possibly tell what's tournament viable and what's not if you don't know how pokes work in this game?

 

[Goat-City]

How can you possibly tell what's tournament viable and what's not if you don't know how pokes work in this game?

It's a small fact I didn't know, no big deal.