Guide - Sub-Zero SUB-ZERO COMBO THREAD (Patch 8/31)

[crosshair271]

We were talking about NJK vs. f1,2 earlier... I dug into it for the first time earlier.



I don't know about Shatter combos being a factor. Didn't mess with it too much, but the options don't seem to be there like with b3,3,d4. Seems more to do with the loop...



I set the AI to jump and made Sub neutral jump after Clone setup for both NJK and f1,2. F1,2 with a slight delay into Clone seemed to have a lot more advantage than NJK. But a b2 follow-up will land the opponent in the Clone and fuck up the combo. You still have the low/throw option with a lot more advantage.

Doing f1,2 with heavier delay makes it so the b2 won't land the opponent in the Clone. So then you could loop off of b2/b33/throw, same as NJK. The heavier delay might make NJK more advantage, but it doesn't seem to be by much if at all. I mean, f1,2 with heavier delay can still setup Clone and neutral jump over Reptile's wake-up EH Slide. I'm thinking it comes down to b2 landing in Clone, and then NJK being easier than timing the heavier delay after f1,2 as the reason why guys go for it.

Thoughts? Am I off?

To be honest I prefer F12 over NJK any day. I feel the same plus frames, it gets me more damage and puts the Klone literally in their face. If B2 smacks them into Klone that's gravy. I'd rather knock them into Klone than risk giving them space to jump over or input a wake-up/reversal. B2 into Klone I do NJP, FJP, FJP, F12xxKlone. Rinse and repeat. Reason I do two JIP's is it pushes the opponent further into the negative edge making my F12 Klone more consistent. If you put time and practice mastering F12 you will be rewarded. The only time I really NJK is to instant air hit people.

 

[Samsara]

I have what I believe to be optimal corner combos for unbreakable sub-zero. but first, allow me to illustrate how fucked up sub-zeros damage scaling is using aura in combos:

Scenario 1: (No Aura Active) B12xxEXDB1 B2 242 123xxBF4 for 39%

Scenario 2: (Aura Active) B12xxEXDB1 B2 242 123xxBF4 for 42%

Scenario 3: B12xxDB3 B12xxEXDB1 B2 242 123xxBF4 for 42%

For serious?

Anyhoo, I'll get to editing the unbreakable section.

 

[ChaosTheory]

To be honest I prefer F12 over NJK any day. I feel the same plus frames, it gets me more damage and puts the Klone literally in their face. If B2 smacks them into Klone that's gravy. I'd rather knock them into Klone than risk giving them space to jump over or input a wake-up/reversal. B2 into Klone I do NJP, FJP, FJP, F12xxKlone. Rinse and repeat. Reason I do two JIP's is it pushes the opponent further into the negative edge making my F12 Klone more consistent. If you put time and practice mastering F12 you will be rewarded. The only time I really NJK is to instant air hit people.

The b2 landing in Clone is really the only deterrent I could find. You mentioned you feel similar plus frames... that should mean you're going for the longer delay after f1,2, right? I mean, if you did the slight delay, you shouldn't feel the same plus frames. It should feel like a whole lot more. So did you mention that combo after landing in Clone as a confirm just in case the opponent happens to land in it? (if not, disregard the following...)

I ask because if you time it properly and assume they won't land in Clone, then the combo after b2 would be 242~1~b1,2,Clone~NJP~JIP~f1,2. With how fast you have to time 2,4,2 to catch the peak of b2's bounce, it seems difficult to me to land a b2, confirm that they landed in Clone, and then alter your combo as you mentioned. I experienced landing b2, then quickly inputting 2,4,2, and having the opponent contact the Clone right before 2,4,2 connected thus fucking up the gravity/combo.

However, if you do the slight delay, you KNOW they're gonna land in the Clone, so you can just not input 2,4,2. Or do I just need practice?

 

[crosshair271]

The b2 landing in Clone is really the only deterrent I could find. You mentioned you feel similar plus frames... that should mean you're going for the longer delay after f1,2, right? I mean, if you did the slight delay, you shouldn't feel the same plus frames. It should feel like a whole lot more. So did you mention that combo after landing in Clone as a confirm just in case the opponent happens to land in it? (if not, disregard the following...)

I ask because if you time it properly and assume they won't land in Clone, then the combo after b2 would be 242~1~b1,2,Clone~NJP~JIP~f1,2. With how fast you have to time 2,4,2 to catch the peak of b2's bounce, it seems difficult to me to land a b2, confirm that they landed in Clone, and then alter your combo as you mentioned. I experienced landing b2, then quickly inputting 2,4,2, and having the opponent contact the Clone right before 2,4,2 connected thus fucking up the gravity/combo.

However, if you do the slight delay, you KNOW they're gonna land in the Clone, so you can just not input 2,4,2. Or do I just need practice?

The way I time the F12 is the opponents feet are all the way back so I can put the Klone as close as possible. This way when they get up the negative edge pushes them forward even closer to the Klone. I was only saying similar plus frames because it's either the same or better which is why I prefer it over NJK.

The follow up combo I do is because I know I placed the Klone so close they will get smacked into it. There is more tech to the mix ups, you can do F33, 123, B33xxSlide, raw slide, throw. They all hit them into the Klone. I don't like giving opponents any breathing space to input a wake-up/reversal/jump over. If the spacing is further out and B2 doesn't smack them into Klone you can do B2,B2,(1,1/D1,D1),B12xxKlone. It nets more damage than the 242 combo. On males the 1,1/D1,D1 don't matter but on females you HAVE to do 1,1 and B12xxKlone when their body is between Sub's waist and knee.

The F12xxKlone setup will always smack them into Klone from B2. From NJKxxKlone you can do the 242 combo.

 

[RM Ree]

I don't remember who brought it up before, but the clone shatter turning opponents auto block on is super frustrating. The only way shatter combos work is if db1 (ice burst) knocks down and clone shatter juggles after. For whatever reason, the shatter hit is prioritized over the ice burst/ ex frost bomb when the clone is too close, leaving the opponent standing and auto blocking.

Would it be possible to 123 xx ex frost bomb to net the shatter combo, or will the opponent fall into clone before they're launched?

 

[crosshair271]

I don't remember who brought it up before, but the clone shatter turning opponents auto block on is super frustrating. The only way shatter combos work is if db1 (ice burst) knocks down and clone shatter juggles after. For whatever reason, the shatter hit is prioritized over the ice burst/ ex frost bomb when the clone is too close, leaving the opponent standing and auto blocking.

Would it be possible to 123 xx ex frost bomb to net the shatter combo, or will the opponent fall into clone before they're launched?

That was me way back. You have to put the Klone about sweep distance from the opponent, stand between the Klone and opponent if you want the full high damage combo to work. If the Klone is closer like a full step away then just make sure you're standing in front of it to get the hits from Burst and Shatter. If it is up close to the opponent and you stand next to it, it will cause that glitch I discovered way back.

Also if the Klone is pressing against the opponent in the corner then 123 will probably knock them into it. That is new tech I've been practicing. Have Klone pressed against the opponent and do my strings. If the string knocks them into Klone, free combo. Try it out. F33, F33xxSlide, 123, 123xxSlide, Slide, B2(the standard well known move).

 

[Professor Oak]

Air Hammer restands in the corner at certain gravities.

I found it off of this:
B33xxIceball, 242, NJP, JIK/JIPxxAirHammer

If I knew how to post to Youtube from X1, Id share my clip, but you all can explore this and see if its viable.

 

[RM Ree]

Air hammer restand has been discussed in the Cryomancer guide, but only briefly. I think it's advantage is +2 or something minuscule like that. Working the restand, or any reset attempt with Cryo requires some tweaking to the character. For instance, if you wanted to better incorporate resets into your Cryo gameplay...

Start using the combo "b33 xx ice ball, jip, f122, njp, b2, f42 1+3 xx hammer" for your meterless 31% corner bnb off low > freeze. You can go for the hammer restand after "f122, NJP" or end the sword string early with just "f12..." and go for a reset with your +29f hit advantage. "B33 xx ice ball, jip, b2, b2, f42 1+3 xx hammer" does more damage @ 32%, but the change of combo trains your opponent to expect the route SZ is using, making the reset/ restand attempt much more ambigious. If your Cryo is doing the "low> freeze, b2, b2..." route all match, and your opponent suddenly sees you throwing out f122 of NJP's instead? Believe they're going to expect the reset/ restand next.

Not to say the resets/ restands won't work otherwise, but if you want to make it more difficult for an opponent? Keep them guessing even if they're already getting hit.

 

[Professor Oak]

Air hammer restand has been discussed...

I should've checked first. My b.

Yeah, Im aware of the hit advantage of f12 after freeze, are you suggesting to use f122, NJP more often in order to make the f12 restand less expected?

I personally dont use the f12 restand, unless Im ballin out with my meter to save a round down on health.

I prefer F122, B2-Then either
RC, f421+3xxHammer or
RC, f421+3xxEXIceBall, JIP, f12

If thats even what you mean, didnt clearly understand your point.

Nevermind. Lol. Im a terrible reader, appareantly. I getcha after my second or third read.

 

[RM Ree]

I didn't mean it's a bad thing that you brought up the restand. It's hard to find even if you know where to look.

And the combo change for reset ambiguity is a pretty difficult concept to type out, but it sounds like you got it. Just food for thought!

 

[Professor Oak]

I do believe I understand. Essentially, as you said, leave them in confusion with your ender between a hkd, or a restand from f12, or f122, JIPxxAirHammer, and subsequent mixup.

Dats more than a 5050, too stronk, needs nerfs.

The air hammer being +2 when the restand occurs doesnt give you much, though. A d4~EXburst maybe?

 

[RM Ree]

Stand 1 strings, f33, throw, d4 or a straight armor option could all work. I guess it depends on what your opponent wants to do and how you read him.

 

[Lokheit]

From my testing the hammer restand is 0 or even negative, might be related to the height of your hit as maybe once each 20 tries I get a positive (but it could be related to button releases).

I wouldn't go for it as you might gain "surprise factor frames" if he never saw it before, but if he pokes he can beat anything you throw as it's a negative. Tested it with same start frames moves and the victim got the first hit most times.

 

[RM Ree]

That's odd. I'm setting the opponent to jump, trip guarding them, then holding up after the air hammer. SZ is leaving the ground before the opponent consistently.

Before the September patch, the restand was negative, but now... Is my method of testing screwed up assuming everyone has the same jump start up or something How recently have you tested this? @Lokheit

 

[Lokheit]

That's odd. I'm setting the opponent to jump, trip guarding them, then holding up after the air hammer. SZ is leaving the ground before the opponent consistently.

Before the September patch, the restand was negative, but now... Is my method of testing screwed up assuming everyone has the same jump start up or something How recently have you tested this? @Lokheit

I don't know if the jump start up is different but I know for sure that jumping as a whole is different (easy to test by holding jump on both players and one of them will progresively fall to the ground faster than the other (unless they're the same character).

It may be possible that movement is measured differently, after all you can duck before you can attack.

You can also see that the atacker block animation will complete before the victim if you set him to block (start with a low followed by a launcher so you don't need to change his AI mid combo), which should mean you have advantage, but from my testing the victim hits first.

My method is to set AI to record and mash at very high speed the attack button during a long period to make sure it isn't looping the sequence with a delay midcombo), then when I complete my restand combo I smash at high speed my attack button too. This isn't optimal as pressing before the window of opportunity is open can delay your hit, but I'm doing the same with both so if one consistently lands the first hit it should mean he has advantage.

Try using Sub-Zero vs Sub-Zero as this way you're sure both moves have the same start up and reach.

Normally I test as both the attacker and the victim to make sure the result is consistent.

 

[Lokheit]

Just for the record I tested it again, only a couple of times I got a positive. Still not sure if related to height when hit or faster/slower button release, but it happened so few times and the tech by itself is hard to pull if you want to modify the timing that I consider it a negative by default.

Considering the damage is lower than a regular HKD combo, I recommend sticking to the regular combos to optimize your opportunities.

The air hammer still needs some work. They made it "not garbage" by making it safe on block but there are still better things to use while in the air or against a wake up (not to mention even the short ranged uppercuts go through the hammer and hit you).

I hope some day it's turned into a low hit ground pound like others have.

 

[crosshair271]

Just made a discovery. In Cryomancer it is hard to combo F122, B2, Run, F4, 2, 1+2 if the character stances are yin yang. If they're front to front or back to back the combo is much easier. If they're front to back or back to front the combo is almost impossible to do. The hard part is connecting the B2 and even if you connect it with yin yang stances the F4 followup is almost impossible because they are further out because you had to wait longer for the B2. Thanks NRS for introducing a stupid inconsistency and balance issue.

 

[RM Ree]

Is that what the issue is? Lol I'd do that combo in the lab and only land it like 20% of the time. Been using either double f122 or f12, njp, jik after freeze for similar damage.

 

[crosshair271]

Is that what the issue is? Lol I'd do that combo in the lab and only land it like 20% of the time. Been using either double f122 or f12, njp, jik after freeze for similar damage.

Yep that is the issue. I found it because I was trying 111xxFreeze VS B12xxFreeze and the 111 yin yang'ed the characters.
My Cryo mid screen BNB. JIP, B12xxFreeze, JI1, F122, B2xxRun, F4, 2, 1+2, Hammer. 36%
The 111 variant does the same damage and makes it harder if you don't flip stances during the freeze so I won't use it anymore.

 

[RM Ree]

You can freeze after 112? :3

 

[crosshair271]

You can freeze after 112? :3

Yeah but you have to buffer the freeze very quickly and early. Outside of a punish or that Quan Chi Sorcerer tech I don't see much use in it still. It says it does 11% vs B12 10% but then the combo scales and does the same damage at the end.

 

[RM Ree]

Are we talking about 111? Otherwise this is blowing my mind.

 

[crosshair271]

Are we talking about 111? Otherwise this is blowing my mind.

Oops you're right I meant 111. My brain got confused with 111 and F122.

 

[RM Ree]

Mind games too strong!

 

[Lokheit]

Just made a discovery. In Cryomancer it is hard to combo F122, B2, Run, F4, 2, 1+2 if the character stances are yin yang. If they're front to front or back to back the combo is much easier. If they're front to back or back to front the combo is almost impossible to do. The hard part is connecting the B2 and even if you connect it with yin yang stances the F4 followup is almost impossible because they are further out because you had to wait longer for the B2. Thanks NRS for introducing a stupid inconsistency and balance issue.

For a moment I though this was about the "opponent goes the opposite direction" bug with the move. You're right the whole thing feels harder if you're in opposite stances, but I prefer double F122 over F122B2 anyway as the damage is still good and an unpredictable combo can cost you a round.