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will nrs keep breaking cyrax?

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
I'd just like to point out that the "Cyrax doesn't need it to win" argument doesn't make a bit of sense; that statement is completely meaningless.
 

galindo

Apprentice
I'd just like to point out that the "Cyrax doesn't need it to win" argument doesn't make a bit of sense; that statement is completely meaningless.
Ok then don't say "he needs it to win"


And also just think of it this way, its just not fair/balamced
why should sub zero lose his resets and not cyrax?lol

If you don't think he will be top tier without the resets, and then I guess cyrax wasn't meant to be top tier.
Because he definitely wasn't meant to have ridiculous inescapable resets.
 

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
Leaving this type of garbage in the game is what will cause its death
Are you insane, Cyrax DOES need that to win a match. The command grab patch hurt him really bad. He needs these resets, no question about it. He has some of the slowest normals in the game, Horrible pokes, terrible anti air and wakeup game, an EXTREMELY techable command grab, he can't zone well since his bombs can be "hopped" and the hit box on his Net SUCKS. You can jump those nets with your eyes closed, no kidding. Did I mention that his ex moves are a waste of meter? Especially his ex ragdoll. It's a low hit you know but it sucks really bad. Poor Cyrax, what they've done to him. NRS should be ashamed of themselves, they've nerfed and will continue nerfing a "perfectly balanced" char.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
1. He CAN win without them. Definitely. BnB's all over + 1 Meter 60% = no need for unfuckwithable reset options, at least the 2'nd Net ones. Bomb juggling is cool. Cyrax Plinko FTW.

2. The 1'st minute & change of that video - the Command Bombtraps - has already been patched out, if not more.

3. Breaker. Have to save as much Meter as humanly possible against him. Unless you have the means to outzone him. Which many do.
Just like when the Bombtrap got axed, everyone thought he was done for, and the Lab kept churning out results - if they ever did do away with the resets, as long as he could still keep his BnB's intact, he'd still be a winner. He's the Leaky Boat - always more holes to be found. Yes :D.
 

Past

Apprentice
1. He CAN win without them. Definitely. BnB's all over + 1 Meter 60% = no need for unfuckwithable reset options, at least the 2'nd Net ones. Bomb juggling is cool. Cyrax Plinko FTW.

2. The 1'st minute & change of that video - the Command Bombtraps - has already been patched out, if not more.

3. Breaker. Have to save as much Meter as humanly possible against him. Unless you have the means to outzone him. Which many do.
Just like when the Bombtrap got axed, everyone thought he was done for, and the Lab kept churning out results - if they ever did do away with the resets, as long as he could still keep his BnB's intact, he'd still be a winner. He's the Leaky Boat - always more holes to be found. Yes :D.
1. He also can win even if his damage was nerfed.

2. The unescapable command traps, was a response to the people who claimed that MK9 was better prepatch, and scrubs were just crying because they "suck". Hmmm... An guaranteed bomb trap from a command grab with a 2 frame tech window...nope needed no patch. NRS clearly made a mistake.

3. Breakers? You can't realistically expect someone to carry 2 bars at all times. And even then, just by having the "touch of death" combos, you are automatically limiting the options of your opponent, because he/she does not want to risk losing the round off of one combo, he/she would be adverse to using any metered options other than breaker.
 

GrandMasterson

The Netherrealm beckons
Cross-posting this because I want some feedback.

Can a knowledgeable Cyrax player enlighten me why Cyrax needs an inescapable 65% reset that requires only one bar of meter to pull off? While you're at it, can you also explain why it's absolutely necessary that Cyrax be allowed 2 ex bomb launchers, 2 normal bombs, AND 2 nets all in one combo (as evidenced by Check's 103% video)?

So far I've heard "because it's hard for Cyrax to get in due to his absent low mix-up game and slow normals!! and just use a breaker!!1" First of all, I would have believed that he has trouble getting in if all of his normals were molasses-tier slow, but they're not (in fact, his 3, 3 string is very fast, arguably as fast as Scorpion's). And second of all, so what? Ermac's offense has a hard time for the exact same reason, you know why? Because his entire playstyle revolves around baiting the opponent into not blocking so he can catch them in a stupidy high damage combo.

Did you ever stop and think for a minute that maybe Cyrax isn't supposed to be all that great in close because he's supposed to bait the opponent into JUMPING, hence all of his anti-air capabilities? His bombs, anti-air special, his net, b+2 overhead, even the neutral jump punch; all are tools designed for players who are especially good at reading when their opponent will jump and capitalizing on it.

You Cyrax players should be debating one of two things: high damage combos with no resets, or low damage combos with resets abound. You don't get to have amazing anti-air capabilities, high damage with low meter, and inescapable resets in one package and still be able to call him a "balanced character".
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Attempts to get reset combos out are fucking with the rest of cyrax's playstyle.

In practical (instead of theory kombat 9) high level play a 60% combo will wreck your shit EXACTLY as much as an 80% one and is only very slightly worse than 50%, which much of the cast has. unless, you get caught staring at your belly button in match. Please think about that until it makes sense.

If they can get them out without butterfly effecting the rest of his character, cool whatever.

If they want to bring his damage down, cool whatever.

Cyrax has been balanced since the removal of the command grab bomb trap.

Nerfing things that don't need it has been going on for for 3 patches now because of cry baby-ing.

So much point missing happening in here.

Also, for the record, I DON'T PLAY CYRAX.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
But you ARE a robophile... ;)
lol, I've always told people the human versions were cooler. That was a mind fuck moment in story mode.

EDIT: back on topic

Just because something looks bad on paper doesn't mean it actually plays out that way in game.

If the game were you and your opponents taking turns doing combos on each other, yea cyrax would be broken. That's not the game WE'RE playing.

Are you? (not posing this question to anyone specific)
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Lmao @ caught staring at your belly button.

I was never crazy about Human Cyrax, but I may end up giving him another try someday.
I remember the first time watching Story Mode play out and looking at them like "Is that who I think it is...?!"
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Look, I don't think anyone can argue that getting 75% out of one meter is stupid, because it is. The whole argument of "Well, as long as you have breaker you'll be okay!" What a bunch of crap. That means that I can be chipped out 15%, make one mistake, and be instantly destroyed. At least with Jax he has to capitalize in the corner, Cyrax gets that off a JIP.

I have no problem with resets, but c'mon, 75% is just excessive and ridiculous off a 1 bar midscreen...

If you don't think he will be top tier without the resets, and then I guess cyrax wasn't meant to be top tier.
Because he definitely wasn't meant to have ridiculous inescapable resets.
This. This right here. This is the argument that we keep seeing; would Cyrax be S tier without that shit? Probably not. Big whoop. How many tournaments has CD Jr won with an S tier character? None.
 

NariTuba

disMember
Ok i'll bite

Cross-posting this because I want some feedback.

Can a knowledgeable Cyrax player enlighten me why Cyrax needs an inescapable 65% reset that requires only one bar of meter to pull off? While you're at it, can you also explain why it's absolutely necessary that Cyrax be allowed 2 ex bomb launchers, 2 normal bombs, AND 2 nets all in one combo (as evidenced by Check's 103% video)?

So far I've heard "because it's hard for Cyrax to get in due to his absent low mix-up game and slow normals!! and just use a breaker!!1" First of all, I would have believed that he has trouble getting in if all of his normals were molasses-tier slow, but they're not (in fact, his 3, 3 string is very fast, arguably as fast as Scorpion's). And second of all, so what? Ermac's offense has a hard time for the exact same reason, you know why? Because his entire playstyle revolves around baiting the opponent into not blocking so he can catch them in a stupidy high damage combo.

Did you ever stop and think for a minute that maybe Cyrax isn't supposed to be all that great in close because he's supposed to bait the opponent into JUMPING, hence all of his anti-air capabilities? His bombs, anti-air special, his net, b+2 overhead, even the neutral jump punch; all are tools designed for players who are especially good at reading when their opponent will jump and capitalizing on it.
As far as wether he NEEDS the resets or not there's really no way to know except for LEAVING THE GAME ALONE and letting things play out. Theory Kombat discussions are fine and entertaining but I have not heard a single argument against the resets that is theoretically so sound that justifies the nerfs. Fact remains that this character hasnt been on a non stop international winning streak because of the resets, so there is no hard evidence AT ALL.

I also understand the frustration of spending hours upon hours working on tech that gets butchered because NRS nerf policy is sometimes based around profit and not quality (aka online players cant punish KL spin or R elbow dash so they get nerfed) In my humble opinion this has done more harm to the game than the resets have, and it is valid to adress it.

The ammount of Ex launchers in the same combo and the ammount of nets and bombs pertain to the character's damage output, which is only ONE of the many variables that need to be considered for game balance. Pointing out these pieces out of context is simply obtuse.

FYI, 3,3 is not hit confirmable and negative on block, on top of that the second hit will whiff on crouch block; so its not a great example of a good normal to support your point. Truth is some of Cyrax's normals are good and some are bad, I'd say that the character has average normals overall. Once again, normals just as damage are just one piece of the puzzle. Like KT Smith said above, a lot of point missing going around.

As far as baiting people to jump ftw... anyone who plays against Cyrax at high level knows not to jump and will never jump. This is also false on a different level since its matchup dependent (Cyrax gets outzoned by many in the cast). You block the net, you learn the timing on the bombs and you dash out. (B2 as AA?? Im not sure what you mean there)

You Cyrax players should be debating one of two things: high damage combos with no resets, or low damage combos with resets abound. You don't get to have amazing anti-air capabilities, high damage with low meter, and inescapable resets in one package and still be able to call him a "balanced character".
So basically damage (and the ammount of meter spent to deal it) and AA capabilities determine wether a character is OP? how about wakeup game? or zoning? or anti zoning? or normals? or ammount of bad matchups? or ammount of good matchups? or armored moves? or mobility? or mixups? or meter building capabilities? or XRay?

Each of these categories is complex and needs to be cross referenced with the ENTIRE cast to even begin to attempt a full analysis of game balance. It is in fact so complex that in some cases it may prove impossible to determine by theoretical discussion alone... so the answer is to let the game play out, an observe the results.

The results so far? Cyrax doesnt dominate neither the high level scene nor the online scene.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
Yay 3 bombs and a net on screen at once. Yea that is totally fine -_- good job NRS!!


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
 

PND i2 Gaug3

NERF Everything, LEAVE Nothing
Jax's (if you give him a proper tool for midscreen damage) damage exploits need to go.
Im already prepared for this if it does happen


He's just as punishable as anybody else, just not in a conventional manner.
I always thought a Nut punch was pretty conventional


Give characters with no dirt some dirt. If the game gets dirty enough, maybe Il pick it up again.
If its dirty you want then give jax plus 4 frames on all his specials, why not just turn jax into fei long try to poke and get crushed


none of that dirty stuff leads to 100%combos...except for maybe jax.
and thats why people are complaining about cyrax...not so much for jax, not sure why. but still.
Its only cause hes black, that defining colour give's him complete control over the "catch you in the corner" country "then kill you" city
 

shura30

Shura
The results so far? Cyrax doesnt dominate neither the high level scene nor the online scene.
wort statement ever for a fighting game

a single mistake/combo vs another character won't cost you the round like against cyrax
cyrax will kill you in a single attempt and his resets (that abuse an exploit of the otg/juggle engine) are just unfair
you catch them with your starter (big ass projectile that will always trade in cyrax's favour mostly) round over

and he still has exnet to drain your breaker (we still don't see this often but soon it will come more popular-it should be easily launchable in trades)

defending a cheap strategy or tech is just dumb yet popular on these boards
because tournament numbers (which will keep the scene up - live and psn are both unplayed deserted fails) will quickly fall to zero if players are disencouraged to partecipate
obviously it will not be entirely cyrax's fault but still..
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
As far as wether he NEEDS the resets or not there's really no way to know except for LEAVING THE GAME ALONE and letting things play out. Theory Kombat discussions are fine and entertaining but I have not heard a single argument against the resets that is theoretically so sound that justifies the nerfs. Fact remains that this character hasnt been on a non stop international winning streak because of the resets, so there is no hard evidence AT ALL.
NRS trying to remove it from the game 3 times isn't enough evidence that it's not supposed to be there? Granted they failed, but it wasn't intentional.
 

NariTuba

disMember
defending a cheap strategy or tech is just dumb yet popular on these boards
because tournament numbers (which will keep the scene up - live and psn are both unplayed deserted fails) will quickly fall to zero if players are disencouraged to partecipate
obviously it will not be entirely cyrax's fault but still..
Im not defending a cheap strategy and I don't want Cyrax to be OP (I doubt Maxter or THTB want that either) What Im saying is that people need to be more humble when preseting their arguments. Anything can be discussed in a civilized manner, but when players call other players "scrubs" or "idiots" because they disagree with their theory fighting arguments things just get silly. People will be discouraged to participate in tournaments if a character is stupid OP and keeps winning tournaments... I just dont think this is the case here at all and I also think arguments against nerfs need to be at least considered without everyone getting so emotional about something that isnt as black and white as some people make it out to be.

NRS trying to remove it from the game 3 times isn't enough evidence that it's not supposed to be there? Granted they failed, but it wasn't intentional.
Is it unintended by NRS? yes, does that mean its game breaking? I dont know and I feel its worth discussing. NRS failed and succeded in many things, and they couldnt possibly prepare for all possible outcomes of such a large scale game. Hence the patching; but then we have to talk about patching policy which is another matter all together. Was KL spin nerf proof that the move was OP (hence not intentional)? I dont think so. I rather go by tournament results and high level player consensus than on whether it was intentionally put there or not. My personal opinion? let the game breathe a little and let the chips fall where they may... then patch.
 

Past

Apprentice
Each of these categories is complex and needs to be cross referenced with the ENTIRE cast to even begin to attempt a full analysis of game balance. It is in fact so complex that in some cases it may prove impossible to determine by theoretical discussion alone... so the answer is to let the game play out, an observe the results.
Cyrax is good in many of those categories. NRS had to patch this game or else it was going to die fast. I don't believe that many people were willing to stomach unescapable command grab resets, 80% combos from Kung Lao and prepatch dagger cancels from Scarlet just to name a few.

The results so far? Cyrax doesnt dominate neither the high level scene nor the online scene.
The results have little to do with a good a character is and more importantly, it has nothing to do with unintentional, unescapable resets that can go as high as 103% off of a jip.
 

Maxter

Kombatant
Look, I don't think anyone can argue that getting 75% out of one meter is stupid, because it is. The whole argument of "Well, as long as you have breaker you'll be okay!" What a bunch of crap. That means that I can be chipped out 15%, make one mistake, and be instantly destroyed. At least with Jax he has to capitalize in the corner, Cyrax gets that off a JIP.

I have no problem with resets, but c'mon, 75% is just excessive and ridiculous off a 1 bar midscreen...



This. This right here. This is the argument that we keep seeing; would Cyrax be S tier without that shit? Probably not. Big whoop. How many tournaments has CD Jr won with an S tier character? None.
you forgot who started this thread is cd jr brother? btw rain vs kabal is a good matchup in favor of rain really because of armor kick and descent teleport ,that helped cd jr to win a major against warda who only used kabal, jr was beaten by warda at wcg tournament before cd jr could find the abusive hit boxes jax had and frame advantage on every normal, 2nd of all jax is not low tier he is s and might be the best on this game after the last 4 major buffs, cyrax is not better tier than jax anymore, and he is not even top 5 you will see what happen to cyraxes at nec and why is difficult for him to reach top 8 is not the players really there a good players using cyrax, people just make stupid match up threads and think players win because of dmg combos, or maybe some special moves, now jax now is a zoner and his hit boxes on hits are huge broken, and there is not way to get past his standing jab not even with the most precised kicks and that leads to 30%s he will land 10 of this before cyrax can land one big combo that might get broken before reaching 10% only scrubs using jax couldnt notice how good he was before crying for buffs and now jax is broken way more broken than cyrax. cyrax cant get close to him, cant get far, because jax outzoned him and projectile recovers as fast as sonya's fireball, plus ground pound cancelings, you say cd jr has won major with low tiers i know what the tiers really are, i still have the record on wins on this house and i could really make a match up thread, i have 10-0 cd jr chars couple of time and not with cyrax, but zub zero sektor, an saibot, cd jr is a good player but he knows how broken jax is right now and they should have nerver buffed him again just remove his f4,1,3 bug he could keep his reset thats no broken, i don't find dmg related things on this game broken, sub zero had to keep his reset also, this game lacks dmg now on defensive players because of i diots asking for nerfs nerfs nerfs. never put cd jr on this topics, remember on this house we have a lot of hours put into this game and we used most of the cast and know what we are talking about, i wont give reason for resets to stay or go, but if u read this thread it wasn't about resets but how incompetent nrs is nerfing cyrax abilities to avoid bomb loops because they cant find a better solution or dont have the expertise to reprogram the game.
if this thread keeps getting off topic i'll have to close it, ah and i see u got a caged picture, do you know that i use cage too and i can do a 53% dmg without even using a bar of meter and get u into a 50% situation, and not give you a change to wake up attack? ( thats broken)
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I still dont get all this Jax hype. He isnt anywhere near as good as that, He gets frame advantage at random so what, if you're that scared about it just take the knee

, unless you're in the corner. Yes some characters with big hitboxes cant poke out of the string but that doesnt mean its an unbeatable string.

You can literally spend the entire match ducking against Jax and he cant do shit all, try an overhead and you can poke him out of it into a full combo, unless he does 21 overhead which seems to be his only mid hitting option where the overhead cant be poked out. Or D4 overhead.

And I'm only saying this because one of my sparring partners plays Jax and we must've played at least 3000 games together now.


So comparing Jax, a character that has very little midscreen game and a good corner game to somebody like Cyrax who fucks you for just touching you isnt really fair. Considering I play Mustards and Usedforglues Cyrax alot and they dont use resets at all I'm still gonna say that Cyrax has alot more to fear than Jax.
 
Key words, filled with the best players. And 3 of those best players, are Maxter and his brothers. Lol, put a Scrub in that situation with Cyrax, he'll come last.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Key words, filled with the best players. And 3 of those best players, are Maxter and his brothers. Lol, put a Scrub in that situation with Cyrax, he'll come last.
The CD bros do have a teensie weensie advantage...they're all skilled players in the same household and VSM is close by on top of it all. :)
 

GUNZaBLAZE

Apprentice
Interesting points in this thread. I remember someone brought up a very good solution, which was just to increase his damage scaling after the reset. That would be simple and keep the character the same so that those who use him don't have to relearn him. Plus, it would make for lower damage combos. Cyrax is not much of a threat character, but if people are really willing to stop playing the game if he is not patched again than this would be the most easy and logical solution.