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General/Other - Liu Kang Liu Kang Dragon's Fire & Flame Fist General Discussion

Harlequin969

Always press buttons
How plus/negative is FF Kang after cancelling windmill punch into regular SF on hit? Can he be punished or can he start up his pressure again?
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Is windmill punch block pressure a bill of goods post patch?

Seems like a lot of characters have pretty good answers to it, whether it's armor, NJP, or a quick normal. Yes Liu can come out on top if he makes the right read (i.e., does a counter to beat armor), but in many matchups it seems like the guessing game it's pretty disadvantageous for Liu - the reward he gets is pretty small compared to the risk he's taking by doing wp on block.

For example, characters like Cassie, Sonya, and Takeda can neutral jump punch you for huge damage if you go for windmill punch to dragons roar. That leaves liu with only unsafe follow ups to WP, as all other specials besides ex high fireball are unsafe. Ex fireball is an ok option but costs meter, can be armored through, and isn't exactly huge damage compared to what he'll take if the opponent reads it and does armor. Another bad guessing game is tempest Lao, whose ex spin cannot be countered by Liu's special counter. As Liu, I think every single thing you do after a blocked wp gets beaten by ex spin, except ex dragons roar, which trades (occasionally wins).

Seems to me like flame fist players get away with doing wp block pressure a lot more than they should due to matchup unfamiliarity but I could be wrong. I do it a lot myself and usually feel like I'm getting away with something but maybe I'm missing something. However I suspect that the "right" way to play FF is to only do WP on hit in a lot of matchups.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Is windmill punch block pressure a bill of goods post patch?

Seems like a lot of characters have pretty good answers to it, whether it's armor, NJP, or a quick normal. Yes Liu can come out on top if he makes the right read (i.e., does a counter to beat armor), but in many matchups it seems like the guessing game it's pretty disadvantageous for Liu - the reward he gets is pretty small compared to the risk he's taking by doing wp on block.

For example, characters like Cassie, Sonya, and Takeda can neutral jump punch you for huge damage if you go for windmill punch to dragons roar. That leaves liu with only unsafe follow ups to WP, as all other specials besides ex high fireball are unsafe. Ex fireball is an ok option but costs meter, can be armored through, and isn't exactly huge damage compared to what he'll take if the opponent reads it and does armor. Another bad guessing game is tempest Lao, whose ex spin cannot be countered by Liu's special counter. As Liu, I think every single thing you do after a blocked wp gets beaten by ex spin, except ex dragons roar, which trades (occasionally wins).

Seems to me like flame fist players get away with doing wp block pressure a lot more than they should due to matchup unfamiliarity but I could be wrong. I do it a lot myself and usually feel like I'm getting away with something but maybe I'm missing something. However I suspect that the "right" way to play FF is to only do WP on hit in a lot of matchups.
Dragon Kick should beat NJP attempts. The only character I know WP on block is completely boned against is Kung Lao outside of Tempest. EX Spin will chew up whatever you attempt. Hopefully NRS will patch it so that it's at least parryable. Tempest's EX Spin all depends on the timing.

WP overall isn't really supposed to be a pressure tool, the recent buffs, were just so that your main source of chip damage isn't completely no-two ways about it unsafe, without making him Aquaman.
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Dragon Kick should beat NJP attempts. The only character I know WP on block is completely boned against is Kung Lao outside of Tempest. EX Spin will chew up whatever you attempt. Hopefully NRS will patch it so that it's at least parryable. Tempest's EX Spin all depends on the timing.

WP overall isn't really supposed to be a pressure tool, the recent buffs, were just so that your main source of chip damage isn't completely no-two ways about it unsafe, without making him Aquaman.
Yeah dragon kick has the same problem as high fireball though - it's very unsafe (-14), making the guessing game pretty dangerous / disadvantageous for Liu. If only FF dragon kick had the same frame data as DF dragon kick...
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Is windmill punch block pressure a bill of goods post patch?

Seems like a lot of characters have pretty good answers to it, whether it's armor, NJP, or a quick normal. Yes Liu can come out on top if he makes the right read (i.e., does a counter to beat armor), but in many matchups it seems like the guessing game it's pretty disadvantageous for Liu - the reward he gets is pretty small compared to the risk he's taking by doing wp on block.

For example, characters like Cassie, Sonya, and Takeda can neutral jump punch you for huge damage if you go for windmill punch to dragons roar. That leaves liu with only unsafe follow ups to WP, as all other specials besides ex high fireball are unsafe. Ex fireball is an ok option but costs meter, can be armored through, and isn't exactly huge damage compared to what he'll take if the opponent reads it and does armor. Another bad guessing game is tempest Lao, whose ex spin cannot be countered by Liu's special counter. As Liu, I think every single thing you do after a blocked wp gets beaten by ex spin, except ex dragons roar, which trades (occasionally wins).

Seems to me like flame fist players get away with doing wp block pressure a lot more than they should due to matchup unfamiliarity but I could be wrong. I do it a lot myself and usually feel like I'm getting away with something but maybe I'm missing something. However I suspect that the "right" way to play FF is to only do WP on hit in a lot of matchups.
It's a massive hole in people's knowledge at the minute. Zyphox got away with loads of shit at EVO for instance, even against top players.

For a lot of characters, crouch blocking almost halfs the chip damage they receive, so the guessing game trade is even worse for Kane. I think if they don't have meter than go ham with it depending on the characters, same for characters with bad reversals. But it takes a lot of MU/character knowledge before this variation is properly understood.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Yeah dragon kick has the same problem as high fireball though - it's very unsafe (-14), making the guessing game pretty dangerous / disadvantageous for Liu. If only FF dragon kick had the same frame data as DF dragon kick...
I disagree with that, the Dragon Kick option can save your ass against a lot of low hitting low-profile moves in anticipation of the parry or Dragon's Roar. You'll put yourself full screen a lot of the time and at worst make them resort to a very simmered punish.

It would be nice if the DF Dragon Kick was available in all variations, but alas, that's what variations are for, some things will cover some bases better than others.
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
I disagree with that, the Dragon Kick option can save your ass against a lot of low hitting low-profile moves in anticipation of the parry or Dragon's Roar. You'll put yourself full screen a lot of the time and at worst make them resort to a very simmered punish.

It would be nice if the DF Dragon Kick was available in all variations, but alas, that's what variations are for, some things will cover some bases better than others.
Yeah I agree that dragon kick will save you from the low profile moves and that is nice but it gets blown up pretty hard by simply blocking unfortunately.

Agree with @Phosferrax that it's best against opponents without meter or opponents with poor reversals (or opponents unable to njp you - that last one is a pretty big counter imo, really changes the risk reward math).
 

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
Once you start playing against someone who knows their character's best options after a blocked Windmill punch, then the allure of Flame fist disappears pretty fast.

A good low profiling move will cause every followup outside of low fireball to whiff and low fireball on block is death anyways so the risk reward is completely not in your favor. I've been telling people since the patch came out to go in the lab and test things our but of course everyone would rather ask for buffs on a day 3 character.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Yeah I agree that dragon kick will save you from the low profile moves and that is nice but it gets blown up pretty hard by simply blocking unfortunately.

Agree with @Phosferrax that it's best against opponents without meter or opponents with poor reversals (or opponents unable to njp you - that last one is a pretty big counter imo, really changes the risk reward math).
Well, again, the risk/reward isn't supposed to be in your favor, your can't really expect it to be after seeping a chunk of chip out of them/building half a bar lol, it's just ways upon ways to keep them honest. Certainly more fulfilling than what it was before the special cancel buff.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone can jump out of WP cancelled into Dragon's Roar on block. Some just have to do it forwards or backwards rather than neutral.
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Well, again, the risk/reward isn't supposed to be in your favor, your can't really expect it to be after seeping a chunk of chip out of them/building half a bar lol, it's just ways upon ways to keep them honest. Certainly more fulfilling than what it was before the special cancel buff.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone can jump out of WP cancelled into Dragon's Roar on block. Some just have to do it forwards or backwards rather than neutral.
Yeah fair enough, that makes sense.

I see a lot of FFs using wp on block as if the risk/reward was in Liu's favor, and it seemed wrong to me, so just wanted to confirm that my assessment of the situation was right.
 

SEV

Noob
I've yet to see anyone in tournament do what they should be doing post WP: everyone is just way too antsy and pokes into a parry or eats the low fireball. I don't think I saw Zyphox get punished once for using it at EVO, whether he canceled it or not, and the amount of players that don't just block low after being hit by it, letting Liu get another F44xxWP, is kind of sad: people just gave away their life bars. Just block low, if he wants to throw or go for an overhead, take it; it's better than eating another 27% into restand.

As soon as people figure it out, FF will have to cancel into Dragon's Roar all day, then the character really has nothing compared to DF: +3% to fireballs and unsafe chip, having to spend meter in place of stamina for pressure sustainability.
 

Shtutik

Noob
I have a problem with DF people just let go of block after f213 fbrc and the pressure is non existent i tried to mix them up with 213 than 112 f44 but i can do 213 2 cancels all day but f44 fbrc 112 fbrc f44 is hella hard also they see that they can just armour out. i try to do the f21 and stop but what if you just mash poke after f21 you let go of block and if liu kang does only 21 you poke him out of it.

I feel like flamefist is better just hitboxes are bugged there you get guaranteed cheap damage lots of it in df you get nothing
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
Is there a list somewhere of the frame data off various fireball run cancels? That Curbo list is out of date, right?