General/Other - Liu Kang Liu Kang Dragon's Fire & Flame Fist General Discussion

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I was just in training and it hit overhead once and then it just never hit overhead again and it was always mid. Maybe it was just my eyes playing tricks on me.

Lol probably

 

[Harlequin969]

Was having Liu's old SF buff, the first 2in1 buff version, too strong?
And if that's the case is there a way to buff up old SF so that it can be used to cancel for pressure/combos without being obcene?

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

what matchups so far have you found ff best against? , im only certain that ff is best choice vs jax so far. are there any other matchups that you think ff works best against ?
@Phosferrax @Derptile @YOMI Zyphox @Ak_l0rdofthefly @KingHippo @STRYKIE

 

[STRYKIE]

what matchups so far have you found ff best against? , im only certain that ff is best choice vs jax so far. are there any other matchups that you think ff works best against ?
@Phosferrax @Derptile @YOMI Zyphox @Ak_l0rdofthefly @KingHippo @STRYKIE

I've pretty much been only playing Flame Fist as of late and have put Dragon's Fire on the backburner, it's still a work in progress but I'm just preparing myself in case it never gets the pre-patch meterless Shaolin Flame recovery for the EX version in the next patch.

I'd definitely say it has the upper hand over the others for BS Shinnok though. Low fireball stays ducking longer against his Dark Beam and armor collisions pretty much are always in your favor. Not much consequence if you guess wrong with parry due to the fact that he's generally spending meter to match your meterless damage lol.

Ultimately though I think we should wait until the next patch and see what the future holds for Dragon's Fire before discussing what FF is best for, a lot of the time DF is the best variation for matchups by default just because of how much failsafe shit it has going for it right now.

 

[KingHippo]

I think Flame Fist should be heavily considered against characters who (as of this post) cannot duck all the hits of EN Windmill Punch xx Dragon's Roar, which are Kitana, Ferra/Torr, Mileena, Scorpion and Jason.

Not only can they not avoid the chip/meter build of the WP, but just look at how well he does in other area. Kitana's zoning, whether it be in Mournful or Royal Storm, will not trade well with Liu Kang's flamed up fireballs, same with Mileena should she be in Ravenous or Piercing. Scorpion and Jason will both struggle in the mid range as well as having terrible options to armor through Windmill Punch shenannies; more often than not, they will take more damage in chip than they can return by armoring through the blockstring. Ferra/Torr, if they choose Vicious, will have the same issue where their armored moves are poor and will not match the damage output of a flamed up Liu Kang. Lackey will have a better armor option at the risk of losing badly in the projectile barrage.

In general, I think Flame Fist is a great option against characters whom you can trade armored moves against and the reprecussion of getting hit is almost equal to the chip damage possible from a Flame Fist blockstring. Characters like D'vorah, Bone Shaper Shinnok (to an extent), Sonya, Jaqui, etc. who have armored reversals that will probably max out around 20-ish to 25% at best (In Shinnok's case), and your DPM will simply outpace them at that point. Take your lumps, as long as your opponent will remain lumpier. I believe proper fireball usage + knowledge of the most effective chip scenarios (including how much chip is actually done on crouch, proper usage of punches instead of kicks, etc.) will win the day against characters without armored launchers.

Luckily, DF Liu Kang can not only annihilate armor, but he can combo off of it and often force those chars with armored launchers to be forced to use them, since his offense is so oppressive. They make a pretty good team, these two variations.

 

[Phosferrax]

@xarakamaka I think King Hippo has put it best.

I personally think Kung Jin is a FF MU in Bojustsu, and Goro (unsurprisingly) gets bopped by it.

The problem is now that DF projectile low profiles, he will often win the zoning game on top of his mental pressure up close. So whilst FF can bully characters with bad reversals, just think what it's like for them when DF gets going. FF may do well in MU's, but most I think are DF MU because it's such an all-inclusive variation.

 

[Derptile]

@xarakamaka
I think Boneshaper absolutely wrecks Flame Fist. Shinnok's F4 beats both parry and Dragon's roar so every time you go for a windmill punch on block you have to do an unsafe option, or he could always Ex low scoop and beat everything. I can see LK maybe winning the zoning war but everywhere else Shinnok wins. There's plenty other shit as well but the point is I think Boneshaper is FF's worst MU.

FF should be used against
- Characters that get jailed by the Ex windmill punches into dragon's roar, anytime you touch them you basically get ~8% free chip(nearly 20% with buff), it's extremely unfair for the other character to deal with this.
- Strong Footsie based rushdown characters like Jax and Johnny Cage(definitely someone to watch out for if you play LK)
- Characters with poor armored reversals like Scorpion, Jacqui, etc.

The main problem is that DF is just so ridiculously strong I don't see the point in learning FF for 3 maybe 4 specific MUs. I still think he's an alright character is very helpful in the Jax and JC MU when you can get those IAFBs down, but I would personally just stick with Dragon Fire and grind those MUs.

 

[STRYKIE]

@xarakamaka
I think Boneshaper absolutely wrecks Flame Fist. Shinnok's F4 beats both parry and Dragon's roar so every time you go for a windmill punch on block you have to do an unsafe option, or he could always Ex low scoop and beat everything. I can see LK maybe winning the zoning war but everywhere else Shinnok wins. There's plenty other shit as well but the point is I think Boneshaper is FF's worst MU.

FF should be used against
- Characters that get jailed by the Ex windmill punches into dragon's roar, anytime you touch them you basically get ~8% free chip(nearly 20% with buff), it's extremely unfair for the other character to deal with this.
- Strong Footsie based rushdown characters like Jax and Johnny Cage(definitely someone to watch out for if you play LK)
- Characters with poor armored reversals like Scorpion, Jacqui, etc.

The main problem is that DF is just so ridiculously strong I don't see the point in learning FF for 3 maybe 4 specific MUs. I still think he's an alright character is very helpful in the Jax and JC MU when you can get those IAFBs down, but I would personally just stick with Dragon Fire and grind those MUs.

Regarding Bone Shaper... You acknowledge that FF Liu is able to gain the upper hand in the zoning meta, that's a big part of wind taken out of Shinnok's sails right there, what's inclining you to sway away from that?

If there's something that's being needlessly sacrificed by going Flame Fist instead of Dragon's Fire in the BS matchup, I'm all ears, and if it turns out to be true, I'll hold that.

Also despite Kitana being jailed by EX WP into Dragon's Roar (and as a fun fact, if she attempts to duck regular WP, the last hit whiffs, and it actually puts you slightly plus, but if she blocks high, then reversal EX rising fan fucks everything over) I don't think it's enough to warrant the switch, at least not in Royal Storm which is just about what every Kitana player is digging recently. Naked lift is already stupidly effective by itself against Liu due to his limited options to punish and you could do without having 10% fireballs reflected back at you. Everyone else who gets jailed by it however, it looks like FF would have a field day.

Again, I'm all for being proven wrong.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Heres my opinions on mus for FF and DF

DF:
Ermac
Quan chi
Erron Black
Jax
Reptile
Tremor
Predator (hsqt)
Tanya (pyromancer)
Jason
Takeda
Kenshi
Kung lao
Raiden

FF:
Kotal Kahn
Jax
Johnny Cage
Predator (hunter and warrior)
Sonya
Erron Black
Cassie cage
Takeda
Jason
Tremor
Shinnok
Kitana
Goro
Kung jin
Kung lao
Raiden
Mileena
Jaqui

Im sure ive missed some but this is my opinion

 

[Derptile]

Regarding Bone Shaper... You acknowledge that FF Liu is able to gain the upper hand in the zoning meta, that's a big part of wind taken out of Shinnok's sails right there, what's inclining you to sway away from that?

If there's something that's being needlessly sacrificed by going Flame Fist instead of Dragon's Fire in the BS matchup, I'm all ears, and if it turns out to be true, I'll hold that.

Also despite Kitana being jailed by EX WP into Dragon's Roar (and as a fun fact, if she attempts to duck regular WP, the last hit whiffs, and it actually puts you slightly plus, but if she blocks high, then reversal EX rising fan fucks everything over) I don't think it's enough to warrant the switch, at least not in Royal Storm which is just about what every Kitana player is digging recently. Naked lift is already stupidly effective by itself against Liu due to his limited options to punish and you could do without having 10% fireballs reflected back at you. Everyone else who gets jailed by it however, it looks like FF would have a field day.

Again, I'm all for being proven wrong.

Well this how it goes

Flame Fist: Better Zoning

Boneshaper: Better range, better rushdown, has actual 50/50 game, better mobility, deals with Windmill punch followups better than 90% of the cast, and has footsies out of this world(cowboy pls).

Flame Fist's zoning is obviously the best out of all his variations but it's still not gonna help him here. BS wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecks FF and this is not me talking out of my ass either, I've played a really good Shinnok and it's absolute aids dealing with his shit. I'd much rather lock his ass down with Dragon's Fire with the massive plus frames and damage.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Well this how it goes

Flame Fist: Better Zoning

Boneshaper: Better range, better rushdown, has actual 50/50 game, better mobility, deals with Windmill punch followups better than 90% of the cast, and has footsies out of this world(cowboy pls).

Flame Fist's zoning is obviously the best out of all his variations but it's still not gonna help him here. BS wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecks FF and this is not me talking out of my ass either, I've played a really good Shinnok and it's absolute aids dealing with his shit. I'd much rather lock his ass down with Dragon's Fire with the massive plus frames and damage.

I think the mu is legitimately even between flame fist and bone shaper.

 

[STRYKIE]

Well this how it goes

Flame Fist: Better Zoning

Boneshaper: Better range, better rushdown, has actual 50/50 game, better mobility, deals with Windmill punch followups better than 90% of the cast, and has footsies out of this world(cowboy pls).

Flame Fist's zoning is obviously the best out of all his variations but it's still not gonna help him here. BS wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecks FF and this is not me talking out of my ass either, I've played a really good Shinnok and it's absolute aids dealing with his shit. I'd much rather lock his ass down with Dragon's Fire with the massive plus frames and damage.

Fair assessment, I can see WP options being a problem if Shinnok players know how to punish with F4 EX Scoop. But he also deals with Dragon's Fire's lockdown better than most, and leaves you with considerably inferior armor to Flame Fist when he gets his game going. But alas, all of this may be subject to change.

By the way, even without the flame buff activated, FF ain't a slouch on damage, there's a few strings where you can activate the buff and then cancel into WP. Admittedly I'd like to play around with that a bit more offline though because trying to cancel into it online ain't worth the aggro.

 

[Derptile]

Fair assessment, I can see WP options being a problem if Shinnok players know how to punish with F4 EX Scoop. But he also deals with Dragon's Fire's lockdown better than most, and leaves you with considerably inferior armor to Flame Fist when he gets his game going. But alas, all of this may be subject to change.

By the way, even without the flame buff activated, FF ain't a slouch on damage, there's a few strings where you can activate the buff and then cancel into WP. Admittedly I'd like to play around with that a bit more offline though because trying to cancel into it online ain't worth the aggro.

I do agree with the better armor on FF argument but let's be serious here, gaps only appear in BS's offense if he wants there to be any. Everyone knows how amazing BS's F4, Scoop, backdash, MB Sparks, Projectile, and D1 are for his footsies but throw D4 and the occasional F22 and you will realize that everything just works out perfectly for him. FF's damage is not bad either but it's no where near as consistent as DF is, mid-screen that is.

 

[XBlades]

So im here in the lab. I can combo en fireball in ff to f1... But for some reason i cant get it to link after wp.. What i was trying to do is f44 into wp ex fist to f12 to wp again then en fireball.. And i was trying to link f1 before they hit the ground for another f12 wp into low fireball..

 

[Percimon]

Found some info, just tested it in practice mode:

I. Flame Fist:
ex-dd1:
- it can be a combo extender after hits with hit advantage <= 18 frames. Here they are:
1) b12;
2) f21 (but after ex-dd1 you have to do RC);
3) 11;
4) f4.
- hits that can extend combo after ex-dd1 must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

II. Dragon's fire:
bf1 cancel or DFC - dragon fire cancel:
- it can be a combo extender after:
1) b12;
2) f21;
3) 11;
4) f4;
5) b33.
- hits that can extend combo after DFC must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

 

[Percimon]

Found some info, just tested it in practice mode:

I. Flame Fist:
ex-dd1:
- it can be a combo extender after hits with hit advantage <= 18 frames. Here they are:
1) b12;
2) f21 (but after ex-dd1 you have to do RC);
3) 11;
4) f4.
- hits that can extend combo after ex-dd1 must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

II. Dragon's fire:
bf1 cancel or DFC - dragon fire cancel:
- it can be a combo extender after:
1) b12;
2) f21;
3) 11;
4) f4;
5) b33.
- hits that can extend combo after DFC must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

UPDATE for flame fist:

ex-dd1 can be combo extender after b34 and 4.

 

[Percimon]

And here are safe on block cancels of some basic attacks into ex-dd1:

 

[GreatKungLao]

Found some info, just tested it in practice mode:

I. Flame Fist:
ex-dd1:
- it can be a combo extender after hits with hit advantage <= 18 frames. Here they are:
1) b12;
2) f21 (but after ex-dd1 you have to do RC);
3) 11;
4) f4.
- hits that can extend combo after ex-dd1 must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

II. Dragon's fire:
bf1 cancel or DFC - dragon fire cancel:
- it can be a combo extender after:
1) b12;
2) f21;
3) 11;
4) f4;
5) b33.
- hits that can extend combo after DFC must have start up <=10 frame. Here they are:
1) 1 --- (w/e you want next) ;
2) f2 --- (w/e you want next) ;
3) f4 --- (w/e you want next) ;

Add f12, b34, 112, 2 to DFC extender list. It works.

 

[GreatKungLao]

I have a found a really old FBRC combo video I made back in May. I don't know if it's useful today, but you might wanna check it out for combos that can be FBRCanceled and be continued into juggles:

 

[fight60]

F21 U4 has some creative cancel pressure mid screen when you out of stamina, didn't see any one post about it. Can use BK with it or even FBRC for a surprise.

It's a very situational combo, best used when out of stamina and trying to get Some space.

 

[RM AtK!]

F21 U4 has some creative cancel pressure mid screen when you out of stamina, didn't see any one post about it. Can use BK with it or even FBRC for a surprise.

It's a very situational combo, best used when out of stamina and trying to get Some space.

also not safe due to huge gap lol

 

[fight60]

also not safe due to huge gap lol

ye, it's risky. if you use it once a match (if at all), nobody will exploit the gap. There are obvi. better alternatives but if your opponent has already downloaded all your moves , they generally won't see this coming.

 

[WITNESS]

ye, it's risky. if you use it once a match (if at all), nobody will exploit the gap. There are obvi. better alternatives but if your opponent has already downloaded all your moves , they generally won't see this coming.

no

 

[Mpizz10]

also not safe due to huge gap lol

The opponent usually respects your pressure so much especially since the first two hits are the same as his beastly string that they will more than likely not punish it at least I never have gotten punished

 

[AssassiN]

Liu kang - Reduced the cancel advantage Towards+BP,FP,FK on block by 5 frames
Liu kang (Dragon Fire) - Must be in the Dragon Fire held loop for 4 frames before you can dash cancel out of it when opponent is in block stun

Was nerfed a bit more than I got from the stream.
This means getting used to the new timing on block and that F213~FBRC probably isn't a true blockstring anymore.