Incomming patch!! .... wait what??

[Pig Of The Hut]

J360: wow interesting, anyway we can see a video of this?

 

[UsedForGlue]

^^^this is the strongest reason I find the change to be needed.

Like I said in the other thread I agree with this a lot

My only exception is this, I play w rain as well and his dash into pokes aren't very useful because he has crap pokes and as cd jr proved you can win without dash poking as well as u can w CSZ .

Cd jr poked a lot w rain from neutral position or dash back. I actually like CSZ d3 cause he drops his shoulder so his hit box lowers.

I guess what I'm saying is this is the strongest argument I've seen but I could also argue that you'll get more damage by dashing in w 2,1 mixups and have better success and get more damage off of blocked chip than you would 5 d3s that actually hit.

Great point though

Cool, but the poke is not about the damage, it is about protecting and setting yourself, the amount of times I have to interrupt Cage mid dash is crazy, and being able to do it with would be amazing.

I would ask how you deal with it with Mileena, but she has that ridiculous ...

 

[NYCj360]

Ill try to recreate it tonight

Sent from my HTC HD2 using Tapatalk

 

[UsedForGlue]

Ill try to recreate it tonight

Sent from my HTC HD2 using Tapatalk

Want to know something more fucked up?

You can breaker CZS out of his X-Ray...

I will also try record this later with someones help and see if I can get it posted.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

GTFO are u serious? This I have a problem w

U can breaker his xray? Video please. I will test this

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Sorry to double post but against cage I mainly use mileena and space him out w d4.

With CSZ against cage I bull rush his ass and parry all wakeups, and just sayon his ass w continued pressure. Once u parry one wakeup he stops which opens up cross over pressure and domination. Also I stay mid screen distance always to slide projectiles and bait shadow kicks. On advancement I dash him w 2,1 because CSZ has killer speed and shocks people.

 

[UsedForGlue]

GTFO are u serious? This I have a problem w

U can breaker his xray? Video please. I will test this

Absolutely, It has happened at least twice to me before.

It appears to be a random glitch as it doesn't appear to be consistent.

It happens in the corner, Juggle the opponent, then input - , the opponent should have a chance to break your , Cyber will hit the opponent with the dive part of the , then can be broken out of it, and Cyber will still be flipping in his wiffed animation while the opponent can just walk up and punish.

 

[Rasenganfan2]

Smart idea by pig? That exact idea has been put out there well before you heard it from pig. And it is a nessacery change, not considered ideal by many, but those "many" do not appear to see d3 pokes as an important aspect of play, yes, dashing in and dashing back into d3 is not important enough...apparently.

D3 pokes aren't important. Derp, let me deal less than 1% damage derp. I would much rather use my 21% low mix-up 332~slide.

That said, I wouldn't mind bombs being reassigned to 4. If I go to rush in with my mix-up game, a bomb will come out if I press 3 immediately, effectively meaning that I have to include a small delay, thus meaning that they have a (albeit small) chance to get away or attack me. It's a very small window, as I've mastered it, but still. His mix-ups are more important than his big 35% meterless combos 'cause they hit more often.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Sorry to double post but against cage I mainly use mileena and space him out w d4.

With CSZ against cage I bull rush his ass and parry all wakeups, and just sayon his ass w continued pressure. Once u parry one wakeup he stops which opens up cross over pressure and domination. Also I stay mid screen distance always to slide projectiles and bait shadow kicks. On advancement I dash him w 2,1 because CSZ has killer speed and shocks people.

Here is me playing against EU's best Cage, the risk's for everything are so high, as you will see.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NeoEmpireMedia#p/u/8/dU0fk62usCs

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Rahanfan2 - we need to play very soon

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Here is me playing against EU's best Cage, the risk's for everything are so high, as you will see.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NeoEmpireMedia#p/u/8/dU0fk62usCs

HEll yes! That's how u play w c sub!!!

We play identical, I'm glad u started parrying those block strings. I was about to get upset lol

Also when ever someone jumps in slide for AA. U and I are the only two I've seen use b2 2 like that, it's sexy and freaks people out into slide or parry.

I loved the xray combo

Another suggestion? Hit confirm into 2 1 ex freeZe into his resets more. I didn't see any resets. Also never throw ice up close unless u do ex bomb to ex freeZe. I only do this to close a round when it's close . It's a guaranteed freeZe/damage to close a match.

Loved your meter management

Smart. Proud to be a CSZ player w u.

 

[vberserkerv]

i lol'd

other than ex dive kick needing armor to move in opponents zoning him out csz doesnt need anything

If your offense consists of dashing in w 33, or 34 then you're not using him right anyway. You need to be dashing in w 2,1

Although i must admit having the bomb moved to button 4 would be very generous and nice of them

 

[UsedForGlue]

HEll yes! That's how u play w c sub!!!

We play identical, I'm glad u started parrying those block strings. I was about to get upset lol

Also when ever someone jumps in slide for AA. U and I are the only two I've seen use b2 2 like that, it's sexy and freaks people out into slide or parry.

I loved the xray combo

Another suggestion? Hit confirm into 2 1 ex freeZe into his resets more. I didn't see any resets. Also never throw ice up close unless u do ex bomb to ex freeZe. I only do this to close a round when it's close . It's a guaranteed freeZe/damage to close a match.

Loved your meter management

Smart. Proud to be a CSZ player w u.

Thanks for the compliments, I do look back on this footage and notice so much I should have done, and my CSZ has improved a lot since then, I was not trying to rush Foxy down, I was only trying to get what I could and get out, basically water boarding his damage.

Foxy is so difficult and risky to fight. I had to wait for a blocked D3 before a parry also.

 

[UsedForGlue]

D3 pokes aren't important. Derp, let me deal less than 1% damage derp.

That is hugely short sighted and one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read.

To look at something, like a poke, and think it is not important because of it's damage.

 

[UsedForGlue]

HEll yes! That's how u play w c sub!!!

We play identical, I'm glad u started parrying those block strings. I was about to get upset lol

Also when ever someone jumps in slide for AA. U and I are the only two I've seen use b2 2 like that, it's sexy and freaks people out into slide or parry.

I loved the xray combo

Another suggestion? Hit confirm into 2 1 ex freeZe into his resets more. I didn't see any resets. Also never throw ice up close unless u do ex bomb to ex freeZe. I only do this to close a round when it's close . It's a guaranteed freeZe/damage to close a match.

Loved your meter management

Smart. Proud to be a CSZ player w u.

I used the Slide as an AA Three times in the set of fights, Mainly, in the second fight, you can clearly see that I constantly adapting to the fight as it happens.

 

[Niflheim]

I have no idea why you keep saying "2,1 is the best pressure string". Look, it's slow as hell, and it may be safe, but you can get poked out of it due to it being slow. 3,3 can't be poked out of. 2,1 can.
I had high hopes for Cyber Sub-Zero, however, the amount of times I've f--ked up due to negative edge on mid bomb and his bombs being inconsitent, makes me want to rage. His "best" string is slow on start up and his 50/50 high/low mix-up with 3 can't even be used properly.
You've patched a lot of shit, NRS, but CSZ needs patched. We need to make a damn petition.

 

[xTac]

Hm 21 is a pressure string - its safe on block as well as 2,1 1+2

all i ask if you play me and i can show you, when im up in your face repeating 2,1,D3 or 2,1 1+2, 2,1 SLIDE, 2,1 PARRY 2,1 jk close safe dive kick you will feel one thing ***PRESSURED***

Well... thats different. I remember reading you say to pressure with 21 repeatedly as in 21,21,21... maybe i missunderstood.

I dont appreciate you assuming me not know 33 is a low and 34 overhead...LOL i found that very funny.

lol at you pretending not to understand i was actually making a point.

no hard feelings though

:focus:

So... here is a few CSZ frame data info that shows how slow he is for a supposed rushdown character IHMO. Please note that as confirmed by NRS, frame data is variable in this game, so this may vary 1 frame up or down for some moves:

Input | Startup | Recovery | On Block |
---------------------
1 | 11 | 14 | 0 |
---------------------
2 | 15 | 16 | 0 |
---------------------
3 | 14 | 23 | -6 |
---------------------
4 | 23 | 23 | 0 |
---------------------
B1 | 30 | 25 | +1 |
---------------------
B2 | 17 | 26 | 0 |
---------------------
B3 | 27 | 22 | -4 |
----------------------
B4 | 18 | 31 | -7 |
----------------------
F1 | 17 | 26 | -9 |
----------------------
F2 | 17 | 20 | 0 |
----------------------
F3 | na | na | na |
----------------------
F4 | 26 | 32 | -23 |
----------------------
D1 | 10 | 20 | *** |
----------------------
D2 | 14 | 22 | -10 |
----------------------
D3 | 7 | 18 | *** |
----------------------
D4 | 13 | 35 | *** |
----------------------
UP4 | 25 | 75 | -48 |
----------------------
Throw | 9 | ** | 27(whiff)| B and F Throws |
-------------------------------


Discuss??

You've patched a lot of shit, NRS, but CSZ needs patched. We need to make a damn petition.

Everyone tweet cof cof @pakostevens cof cof until he bends!

jk... jk... but something must be done... otherwise fuck it... lets all just play kung lao... or jade... i heard THATS getting patched!

 

[Altaire]

Smart idea pig, i might even pick up the character if they were to do that. I tried playing csz, but found it kinda hard to develop a rushing game with him cuz of that. Bomb would come out when i would try and dash up for a grab. Hope nrs reads this and considers adding it to the patch before its released.

Dude, seriously? You're a pro player, and something this simple is stopping you? Sometimes, I swear you people just aren't trying hard enough.

Tap F F U if you're going to dash into a 3. As in, yes, just tap up briefly, immediately after a dash. This will interrupt the bomb input, so all you get is a basic dash into a 3 3 or 3 4. There, you never have to worry about accidental mid bombs ever again.

I really have to stress that Cyber Subs doesn't need anything. I think it'd be fair for his bombs to freeze 100% of the time and the switch for that is already in the game (added in the first major patch), but that's not something he "needs" either. I see where Pig is coming from when he says the EX divekick should have armor, but that's what his X-ray is for: It's there for situations where the EX divekick gets blown up. Either way, if this patch doesn't even touch Cyber Subs, that'll be fine by me.

 

[Ether]

xTac you are godlike. Pretty obvious that CSZ normals need to be buffed. Faster startup and frame trapping. I would GLADLY take nerfed damage in exchange for more reliable normals.

 

[Niflheim]

This is what CSZ Needs, and it pretty much what UsedForGlue and others wants:
-Bombs freeze 100% of the time. Remove UP+4 Trap if necessary
-Remap Bombs to d,b,3/d,f,3/d,f,b,3. Could also just map them to 4.
-Parry needs to parry lows, but remove back to back parry.
-Faster Normals, if possible. For being a rushdown character, he has slow normals. However, NRS may have done this because he has the fastest dash in the game, so they couldn't give him really fast normals, I guess

His pokes do not need to be buffed, because you can divekick constant pokers, such as mileena. Not sure if slide beats a poke. BTW, block low. If they attempt an overhead, divekick, uppercut, or just dash back. Possible counter poke could be used also.
Ex Divekick does not need armor. It would be OP and we want to fix the game, not make everyone overpowered to fight Kung Lao and Freddy.

 

[Ether]

I don't think having the fastest dash speed justifies CSZ's shit normals. Sektor is tied with CSZ for fastest dash and his normals are SIGNIFICANTLY better.

 

[xTac]

I just want to point out that posting the frame data was not a smooth way of saying "buff his normals!"...

Its just that, since he is not that good in that area, plus the fact theres not a lot he can do from distance as well, goes to show that he should get some love and at least get the negative edge fixed so we can use his cofcof "rushdown" game to its full potential.

I would be glad with all of the changes suggested by many, but at this point i just hope for the negative edge thing and maybe more consistent bombs / one armor ex move.

Not saying this is what i want the most, but its at least something…

 

[Altaire]

Nice work on the frame data, xTac. If I can ask, can you provide some frame data for his string enders/specials? Sure, 2 and 3 might be negative or worse on block, but you'll never use them on their own. What's more important is whether or not 2 1 is safe on block, or 2 1 1+2, or 3 4, or 3 3 2, and so on.

I do know that 3 4 is advantage on block, though I'm not sure how much advantage it is. I'm pretty sure it's enough for a guaranteed throw, though.

 

[Ether]

Random ideas, that don't involve blandly slapping armor onto an EX move:

- Ice Parry should ground the enemy right in front of CSZ, instead of knocking them across the screen.
- Forward and back throw should recover faster, so he can pursue the grounded enemy more quickly as they wake up.
- Speed up his 1 and 2. His pressure is too easily interrupted and jumped out of, compared to characters with sub-frame 10 normals.

 

[rev0lver]

-Parry needs to parry lows, but remove back to back parry.

Don't Liu Kang and Cage's xray parry also get hit out of by lows? I wouldn't see fairness in making CSZ impervious to more.