What's new

Incomming patch!! .... wait what??

xTac

Noob
Paulo was in the S1TB Show chat and here's what he shared

CSZ: Nothing

-----------------------------------
Jade: It's a secret - big surprise

sub zero: ex slide gets armor

 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
other than ex dive kick needing armor to move in opponents zoning him out csz doesnt need anything

If your offense consists of dashing in w 33, or 34 then you're not using him right anyway. You need to be dashing in w 2,1

Although i must admit having the bomb moved to button 4 would be very generous and nice of them
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Thanks for starting this topic Tac

My point is this.

Cyber Sub can't throw out bombs after any string continuing after an ice ball, example, JIP :bp:fp Ice Ball, JIP :bp:fp:bp+:fp :l:bp:bp - No Bomb.

This is because it is deemed to unfair and will result in infinite/glitch traps, there are numerous glaring reasons why this is contradictory.

1.The bombs would not freeze the opponent even if they came out and hit the opponent.
2.You could not double freeze or bomb again if scenario #1 was possible.
3.The opponent could still tech roll and be backed off well before CSZ could frame trap with a dive block stun.
4.Cyrax can do this with the palette swapped move and still achieve #1#2 and 3# with :bp:bp, or :l:bp
5.This rule is broken with CSZ's :u:bk into bombs.

So, forgot all points except #5 for a minute, and explain this,they won't allow something like :l:bp:bp mid bomb, but - :u:bk will allow it, yet they won't remove it, this is the single biggest contradictory I have seen yet in MK9.

I won't even bother with remapping bombs to 4 and slide to 3, back to back parrys compensating for his pokes, or the serious negative edge into a d3, or no short dive kick after :l:bp:bk, I could talk about it, but what's point now.

At least Kung's spin is getting nerfed, I guess the online players get what they cry for the most.
 

xTac

Noob
Pig Of The Hut said:
If your offense consists of dashing in w 33, or 34 then you're not using him right anyway. You need to be dashing in w 2,1
Im pretty sure you do realize that 33 includes a low and 34 includes an overhead.... while 21 includes only highs. So im not sure where u coming from with that...

I keep reading from you that you like to pressure with 21 repeatedly....
I have spoken about this more than once before, but here it is again:

(21) is not by any means a pressure string. (2) has a 15 frame startup and (21) is 0 on block.

U can argue the opponent cant release block quickly because of the risk 1+2 will follow but even then thats not enough as (21,1+2) is also 0 on block, so the pressure would have to stop there since theres nothing that follows it and you will be left with an 11(11), 14(33 and 34) or 15(21) frame startup string to follow up in an attempt to continue pressure.... which can be interrupted easily by any move with faster startup such as many characters front punch or even further, ANY character d1, d3, d4....

I am not the expert here, but these are the numbers/facts as far as im concerned.

Im in no way trying to discredit you man. Just stating what i get here in my end. If you can point out that im wrong, i will be glad to learn from you what i may be doing wrong.
 

CJKRattlehead

Two men enter, one man leaves!
It is surprising CSZ is being left alone considering all the stuff that needs to be done with him.
1) A consistent bomb freeze
2) remapping bombs to prevent the negative edge
3) Bombs after freeze (more opinionative then necessary)

It mystifies me how they can leave these alone and then do things like make KL's spin more punishable and reducing Raiden's Vicinity blast. (Without fixing the god damn hitbox on it!)
 
Although i must admit having the bomb moved to button 4 would be very generous and nice of them
Smart idea pig, i might even pick up the character if they were to do that. I tried playing csz, but found it kinda hard to develop a rushing game with him cuz of that. Bomb would come out when i would try and dash up for a grab. Hope nrs reads this and considers adding it to the patch before its released.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
We still dont have any proof that they won't fix Csz , that said he needs serious fixing for him to be a bug free character , as UFG said:

1 he should be able to cancel his strings into any bombs after a freeze , doesn't make sense that only u4 breaks this rule ( this is by no means a buff guys )

2 the negative edge from ff3 doesn't make him able ( consistently ) to either dash into 33/34 strings and dash into d3 wich is a huge problem

3 bombs not constantly freezing even in the open field ( and i'm not asking to make them freeze while laying on the ground like Cyrax does with his bombs )

Those are imho the needed fixes , someone should send Paulo a message via twitter to either this thread or the CSZ Bomb Idiosyncrasies thread because Csz needs those fix badly.
 

xTac

Noob
Thanks for starting this topic Tac

My point is this.

Cyber Sub can't throw out bombs after any string continuing after an ice ball, example, JIP Ice Ball, JIP + - No Bomb.

This is because it is deemed to unfair and will result in infinite/glitch traps, there are numerous glaring reasons why this is contradictory.

1.The bombs would not freeze the opponent even if they came out and hit the opponent.
2.You could not double freeze or bomb again if scenario #1 was possible.
3.The opponent could still tech roll and be backed off well before CSZ could frame trap with a dive block stun.
4.Cyrax can do this with the palette swapped move and still achieve #1#2 and 3# with , or
5.This rule is broken with CSZ's into bombs.

So, forgot all points except #5 for a minute, and explain this,they won't allow something like mid bomb, but - will allow it, yet they won't remove it, this is the single biggest contradictory I have seen yet in MK9.

I won't even bother with remapping bombs to 4 and slide to 3, back to back parrys compensating for his pokes, or the serious negative edge into a d3, or no short dive kick after , I could talk about it, but what's point now.

At least Kung's spin is getting nerfed, I guess the online players get what they cry for the most.

To be honest, i DO AGREE with what you say.

HOWEVER:
1- NRS will never do it.
2- Too many changes in gameplay resulting re-learning of the character. (which reinforces number 1)
3- Someone will find something ridiculous with the bombs which will force another patch (which reinforces number 1) -- [I know you have points against this, but im not sure they are 100% reliable yet.... they seem to though, i must say]

*i`d take it, but i really dont have any hopes since they havent even remapped the bombs at this point.


I think its better to focus on stuff thats more likely they will listen to, such as :
1-Remap the damn bombs input (100% of CSZ players want that)
2-Give him armor on at least 1 move, be the EX dive kick or the EX slide. (many ppl asked for this right?)
3-More consistent bomb freeze *Im not saying they should freeze 100% of the time, but the "vulnerability frames" rule as it is now is just retarded (bombs will never freeze if deployed while the opponent is in a situation where he is unable to hold block). As shown in a video i made a some time ago:

 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Just watched UFG's latest video on the matter.

I find this quite unprofessional on NRS' befalf, their negligence put CSZ in this mess and now they refuse to get him out of it because the mass majority of the online community aren't educated enough to notice his major inconsistencies that affect players at tournament level.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
To be honest, i DO AGREE with what you say.

HOWEVER:
1- NRS will never do it.
2- Too many changes in gameplay resulting re-learning of the character. (which reinforces number 1)
3- Someone will find something ridiculous with the bombs which will force another patch (which reinforces number 1) -- [I know you have points against this, but im not sure they are 100% reliable yet.... they seem to though]


So i think its better to focus on stuff thats more likely they will listen to, such as :
1-Remap the damn bombs input (100% of CSZ players want that)
2-Give him armor on at least 1 move, be the EX dive kick or the EX slide.
3-More consistent bomb freeze *Im not saying they should freeze 100% of the time, but the "vulnerability frames" rule as it is now is just retarded (bombs will never freeze if deployed while the opponent is in a situation where he is unable to hold block). As shown in a video i made a while ago:



I like the way you put this and I agree. Just a change in button mapping would make me want to main CSZ. I dont care about the cancelled strings into bombs or even consistent freezes. He's got tools to make up for that shit. But the dash into 3,3 and 3,4 is sooooo broken I cant believe they ignore it.
 

Ether

Noob
Wtf, 2 is frame 15?! I thought it was 13. It's even worse than I thought it was. 2,1 pressure is not legit. CSZs pokes are slow as shit. Lao's 2 is frame 7. Literally more than twice as fast as our 2. CSZ is supposed to be a rushdown character, right? Why are his normals so slow?
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Smart idea pig, i might even pick up the character if they were to do that. I tried playing csz, but found it kinda hard to develop a rushing game with him cuz of that. Bomb would come out when i would try and dash up for a grab. Hope nrs reads this and considers adding it to the patch before its released.
Smart idea by pig? That exact idea has been put out there well before you heard it from pig. And it is a nessacery change, not considered ideal by many, but those "many" do not appear to see d3 pokes as an important aspect of play, yes, dashing in and dashing back into d3 is not important enough...apparently.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
To be honest, i DO AGREE with what you say.

HOWEVER:
1- NRS will never do it.
2- Too many changes in gameplay resulting re-learning of the character. (which reinforces number 1)
3- Someone will find something ridiculous with the bombs which will force another patch (which reinforces number 1) -- [I know you have points against this, but im not sure they are 100% reliable yet.... they seem to though, i must say]
The contradiction still stands.

Here it is, the bombs are not allowed to freeze because it prevents ''glitches & infinities'' yet, you cannot double freeze after a bomb, or ice ball, you cannot set up an ice bomb trap from an ice ball combo, with these rules, there can be no ''Infinities'', it is not possible, without using the :u:bk trap, which breaks NRS's own rules. ''You are not allowed to drop ice bombs after Ice Ball or Ice bomb combos''

YES, you can lock the opponent down in open play, IF you force them to guess from open play, and they get it wrong from open play, for example, Jump punching an opponent out of the air, and landing a :l:bp:bp into long bomb, then the opponent has to guess, for example, they choose to roll back and jump, or stand still and maybe not deal with your possible JIP (if you choose to use it), you can only force the opponent to MAKE A READ, and there is nothing wrong or ''Infinite/Glitchy'' about that. This is the main focus of Cyrax's play style, and it is a palette swap move.

There will however be set ups from Ice balls and from Ice bombs, as long as we have :u:bk into bombs.

With this, the bombs should never be allowed the freeze as doing :u:bk into bombs, breaks the rules NRS set for themselves, and even though they wont make ''Buffs'' or what i call in this case ''Fixes'', NRS wont even get rid of something :)u:bk:r:r:fk) that they deem to risky to add to him...a complete contradiction.
 

xTac

Noob
UsedForGlue said:
it is not possible, without using the trap, which breaks NRS's own rules. ''You are not allowed to drop ice bombs after Ice Ball or Ice bomb combos''
I looked up your last video as someone here pointed out and one thing you didnt mention is:

It IS possible to UP4-bombs after a freeze on airborne opponents
Its NOT possible to UP4-bombs after a freeze if the opponent is on the ground

Was this intentional ? Is it possible NRS cant fix it?

It would be nice to know how this rule works... since as you said yourself, its a big contradiction.

Oh by the way... the changes i suggested in my last post are not MY ideas.... i just put together what seems to be the most requested stuff... which is more likely they will listen to. As i said before, i would gladly take the changes you propose... i just dont think they will listen and we may loose a chance to actually get something done here.... yes i want better pokes, but as i said they havent even fixed the bomb negative edge at this point...
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
I looked up your last video as someone here pointed out and one thing you didnt mention is:

It IS possible to UP4-bombs after a freeze on airborne opponents
Its NOT possible to UP4-bombs after a freeze if the opponent is on the ground

Was this intentional ? Is it possible NRS cant fix it?

It would be nice to know how this rule works... since as you said yourself, its a big contradiction.

Oh by the way... the changes i suggested in my last post are not MY ideas.... i just put together what seems to be the most requested stuff... which is more likely they will listen to. As i said before, i would gladly take the changes you propose... i just dont think they will listen and we may loose a chance to actually get something done here.... yes i want better pokes, but as i said they havent even fixed the bomb negative edge at this point...
I can tell you right now that, NO, it could not have been intentional.

Again, you cannot perform this from any other string, as it is deemed to be unfair or may resort to resets, which I don't agree with because the bombs do not freeze anyway, but you can perform it from :u:bk.

BOTTOM LINE:
NRS won't remove a string that has a possibility which they are not prepared to add to him in an up coming patch, Simple terms: They will not allow (for example):l:bp:bp into bombs, but will also not take away a string that currently does this :)u:bk into bombs), contradiction.
 

Ether

Noob
Honestly, I feel like CSZ is a mess of a character, slapped together at the last second. So until they figure out what they're gonna do with this character, I'm gonna be putting time into Sektor, a cyborg that feels like an actual complete character, with SICK normals.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Honestly, I feel like CSZ is a mess of a character, slapped together at the last second. So until they figure out what they're gonna do with this character, I'm gonna be putting time into Sektor, a cyborg that feels like an actual complete character, with SICK normals.
At this point, all I ask is that the bombs come out after all juggles as they won't let them freeze.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Im pretty sure you do realize that 33 includes a low and 34 includes an overhead.... while 21 includes only highs. So im not sure where u coming from with that...

I keep reading from you that you like to pressure with 21 repeatedly....
I have spoken about this more than once before, but here it is again:

(21) is not by any means a pressure string. (2) has a 15 frame startup and (21) is 0 on block.

U can argue the opponent cant release block quickly because of the risk 1+2 will follow but even then thats not enough as (21,1+2) is also 0 on block, so the pressure would have to stop there since theres nothing that follows it and you will be left with an 11(11), 14(33 and 34) or 15(21) frame startup string to follow up in an attempt to continue pressure.... which can be interrupted easily by any move with faster startup such as many characters front punch or even further, ANY character d1, d3, d4....

I am not the expert here, but these are the numbers/facts as far as im concerned.

Im in no way trying to discredit you man. Just stating what i get here in my end. If you can point out that im wrong, i will be glad to learn from you what i may be doing wrong.
Hm 21 is a pressure string - its safe on block as well as 2,1 1+2

all i ask if you play me and i can show you, when im up in your face repeating 2,1,D3 or 2,1 1+2, 2,1 SLIDE, 2,1 PARRY 2,1 jk close safe dive kick you will feel one thing ***PRESSURED***

Im not saying fixing the bomb situation wouldnt be welcomed and nice but i am saying he's VERY powerful character who doesnt need that luxary fixed. He can win right now except against kabal and kitana (his worst two matchups)

Im not wrong - Tom Brady even states this in his guide and he's right. for the longest time i thought 3,4 and 33 were the answers but those are the answers on cross up pressure not dash pressure.

CSZ is also the fastest character in the game on dash block and advancement - seriously go to practice mode and have a dash contest, it's fun.

I dont appreciate you assuming me not know 33 is a low and 34 overhead...LOL i found that very funny.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
i want to add i think CSZ can win a tourney and im maining him at my next one....unless someone picks kit or kabal (two worst match ups)

His mix up rush down is unlike any other and his bomb trap/resets are under used and amazing. Im guarenteed 35+ and can get upwards to 60% off a trap/reset depending on what the opponent does.


And I specifically asked PAULO if CSZ was GETTING ANY CHANGES guys because of all the cry out for them and he said "CSZ WAS UNTOUCHED" which is why in the patch notes on here i made it a clear point to put CSZ = UNCHANGED

Im not disagreeing with you guys that changing the bomb command would be very nice upgrade all im saying is he does NOT need it to win at a high level.
 

CaliJokerstyle

Dies A Lot
Hm 21 is a pressure string - its safe on block as well as 2,1 1+2

all i ask if you play me and i can show you, when im up in your face repeating 2,1,D3 or 2,1 1+2, 2,1 SLIDE, 2,1 PARRY 2,1 jk close safe dive kick you will feel one thing ***PRESSURED***

Im not saying fixing the bomb situation wouldnt be welcomed and nice but i am saying he's VERY powerful character who doesnt need that luxary fixed. He can win right now except against kabal and kitana (his worst two matchups)

Im not wrong - Tom Brady even states this in his guide and he's right. for the longest time i thought 3,4 and 33 were the answers but those are the answers on cross up pressure not dash pressure.

CSZ is also the fastest character in the game on dash block and advancement - seriously go to practice mode and have a dash contest, it's fun.

I dont appreciate you assuming me not know 33 is a low and 34 overhead...LOL i found that very funny.
Pig is completely dead on here i use basically the smae techniques and it works like a charm. I agree his bombs have problem but they really are not a big part of his game so its not a huge deal. The only thing i would like is a faster poke as he can get trapped due to his slow poking.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
i want to add i think CSZ can win a tourney and im maining him at my next one....unless someone picks kit or kabal (two worst match ups)

His mix up rush down is unlike any other and his bomb trap/resets are under used and amazing. Im guarenteed 35+ and can get upwards to 60% off a trap/reset depending on what the opponent does.


And I specifically asked PAULO if CSZ was GETTING ANY CHANGES guys because of all the cry out for them and he said "CSZ WAS UNTOUCHED" which is why in the patch notes on here i made it a clear point to put CSZ = UNCHANGED

Im not disagreeing with you guys that changing the bomb command would be very nice upgrade all im saying is he does NOT need it to win at a high level.
So, are you saying dashing back or forward and cancelling into :d:fk is not needed at high level? I agree with alot you have to say, but are you sure you mean that?
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Yes, I do use :d:fk in block strings like, :fp:bp,:d:fk, :fk:fk:bp

But, not being able to dash cancel into :d:fk is a massive problem, it is a must have command.
 

NYCj360

i Use a modded cyber now
Here is another problem that i have not seen adressed on these boards. This particular glitch happened to me during 3 of my matches at summer jam. 2 tourney 1 casual.

I land a 2,1,1+2 in the corner, do a njp, land then do a standing 4, 1xiceball. they are frozen and now i land another njp to cause corner splat on their character. I immediately throw out a short bomb and start pressuring their wakeup with 2,1,1+2 and the bomb explodes at the samee time the sword hits. Normally this would relaunch into another combo, but what has happened in some instances is that both characters freeze in place like what happens with a breaker and i get knocked away as if it were a breaker and they wasted no METERS. So the game forced me to drop the combo and reserve my opponents meter. A FUCKING METERLESS BREAKER
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Yes, I do use :d:fk in block strings like, :fp:bp,:d:fk, :fk:fk:bp

But, not being able to dash cancel into :d:fk is a massive problem, it is a must have command.
^^^this is the strongest reason I find the change to be needed.

Like I said in the other thread I agree with this a lot

My only exception is this, I play w rain as well and his dash into pokes aren't very useful because he has crap pokes and as cd jr proved you can win without dash poking as well as u can w CSZ .

Cd jr poked a lot w rain from neutral position or dash back. I actually like CSZ d3 cause he drops his shoulder so his hit box lowers.

I guess what I'm saying is this is the strongest argument I've seen but I could also argue that you'll get more damage by dashing in w 2,1 mixups and have better success and get more damage off of blocked chip than you would 5 d3s that actually hit.

Great point though