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Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Vengeance135 said:
Joker needs meter to cycle pressure, she really doesn't. She can carry Joker right to the corner ending in the corner with 50+% done into knockdown where Joker has to guess, Joker doesn't get that kind of damage unless you get a teeth J3 setup LOL nor pressure and plus frames again are irrelevant because if Batgirl feels pressured she can just pushblock and Joker is back to square one. Joker has to spend meter to get damage and even if he does it won't as close as what Batgirl can get in the corner. Batgirl doesn't need meter to fuck you up and she can get a high damaging corner combo with 1 bar lol. I for real cant take this conversation seriously guys lol.
I'm done here
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What? I mean just what? I am having trouble finding something right in this post...
I'm going to address the few things I don't cover below:

-I hit ~40% corner stuff that cycles back into itself in way dirtier and much more safe ways than Batgirl's vortex all the time. Also if she does the 50+% variations in the corner she can't do a standing vortex from it. I'm actually not convinced at all that Batgirl's corner game is as good as Joker's.

-We definitely have anti-pushblock tech... Also while pushblocks are annoying, Batgirl is not a character who strongly benefits from pushblocking us, so sure, go ahead and pushblock +frame setups, it really doesn't bother me, especially if I have a life lead and she has to get in.

-You can opt to go for setups instead of MB canister to conserve meter, or you can abuse the fact you should ALWAYS have meter. Like seriously we get a lot off of 21 on hit meterless...

-I won't even go into your first sentence since apparently we still believe Joker pressure isn't a thing.

-Also not in this post, but everything Joker has is reactable? Man, we must not be playing the same character... Someone tell SaucyJack to add the instant j2/B1 to his reactable 50/50s challenge. (And yes, I know that IA j2 is punishable on block. I went into how her 50/50 on block leads to a safer 50/50 of our own, and cartwheel is super duper punishable if blocked. Are we going to pretend that is a bad move?)



__________________



From my experience, Joker vs Batgirl:


-Batgirl's B1 has more range than anything we have and will beat D2 at the start of the match BUT it has no disjoint, meaning that D2 will beat it in a lot of other situations.

-We can punish all cartwheel variations, but the low option can only be full combo punished with 11 if you stood blocked the first few hits. This does require a correct guess or some godlike execution to cover all 3 options in one motion.

-D2 anti-airs BG very well, as does J1.

-Gunshot stops all of BG's projectiles, but smoke bomb stops gunshot. HOWEVER, if BG waits to see the gun to teleport, then gunshot will hit her out of the teleport's startup. If she tries to smoke bomb as soon as she sees Joker move then she leaves herself open to switch stance mindgames. SWITCH STANCE IS GOOD IN THIS MATCHUP! (No really, I'm serious.)

-After blocking a B2D1 (I think? The overhead/low), the B2U3 or the B12, a B1 will stop anything she tries to do afterwards (If she cancels into BF3, then this still applies after a blocked BF3). If she blocks she is in a 50/50 since B13 will cross up but B1>crowbar will not. Both of these give setups on knockdown. Off of crowbar we have a billion things so won't get into that, but off of B13 crossup a neutral jump will beat every wakeup except flying bat while a forward jump will make flying bat whiff for a D2>RLG full combo punish.
MB F3 will beat all wakeups, but it depends on the timing. If you release it early, it will beat Bat Evade, Flying Bat and cartwheel. If you hold it then it beats Teleport and Bat Evade.
If she just sits there and blocks then we can put on pressure.
If we sit there and block then we can punish all of those wakeups, but we have to guess on cartwheel and if BG just gets up then we return to a close range neutral game, which is bad for us. Close range neutral game means we are already in a 50/50 since both overhead and low options will hit, so this is bad.

It essentially becomes a guess for both players.

-Flying Bat will interrupt D2>Crowbar (Which now that Eevee knows I will probably see a lot more in my future). That said D2>gun cancel>backdash makes it whiff for a full combo. D2>flower is safe and interrupts everything, even MB B3.

-Cartwheel anti-airs for some reason from a lot of ranges, even on jump back, and it is bullshit. Just sayin'.

-We already know how Batgirl's vortex works; we don't need to go over that.

- I know you guys think + frames are pointless, but if you guys ever see the light then ending combos in teeth>flower in such a way that it gives enough frame advantage to get a safe jump then it gives us hella mixups without having to deal with BG's good wakeup game.



I feel like I'm forgetting stuff. Oh well, I'll probably have more to add tomorrow.



If I had to actually give an advantage, I'd say it's slight advantage to Batgirl ONLY because she requires a lot less execution/effort to do anything.
If we were to go with perfect execution, then it's even at worst. We have all the tools to fight her at any range, do more damage with combos that can also loop back into themselves, are far less punishable and have a better pressure game once we get pressure started (Sorry, I keep forgetting we don't believe in Joker pressure either). That said, a *potential* Joker advantage can only be applied to theory fighting, as no one will ever have perfect execution with this character.

In terms of a real match, I could see this hovering between 4.5-5.5 and 5-5, so relatively even. The matchup is definitely more annoying than it is hard.






__________


AL Eevee said:
Not when I'm stating most of the facts, am a better player and when I know the MU better than most.
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Also I said it in PMs, and you know you're my boy, but chill Eevee.
Regardless of whether or not this is true, you're kinda being 100% dick right now. Stop proving that Nova officer wrong.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
BG corner game is better because for some reason NRS decided to give her a million wakeups, cartwheel fucks us up, flying bat fucks us up, fart could fucks us up, smoke bomb fucks us up. We must make a read for each of those wakeups, she doesn't. We must condition people for our 50 50s in the corner, she doesn't.

Also, her dash and low game is better than Joker's, you cannot realistically check her dashes, one slightly late D2 after a dash - B12 and you're done. Checking with B1 from close range is more viable but the BG can space it out where B1 whiffs but her own low doesn't.

Whenever she catches you, it's straight 50-50 with more guaranteed damage than we will have. On Oki we are free, she is not.

6-4 BG favour. I know all the above things because I used to play Astronout regularly for 4-5 months IIRC.
 
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Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Okay so this is what I got from this discussion:
Fromundacheese and Eevee based their MU opinion off of sets they play with each other.
If Joker and Batgirl pushblocked they both have no options in neutral or can benefit from this in anyway.
Joker has infinite meter.
Jokers corner game and damage is equivalent to Batgirls somehow
I suck and AL Eevee is a better player then me
I'm a Nova Corp Officer.
Just one question guys.. can I be this guy?


Just in case the picture didn't show its Nova from the Nova Corp.

@ somebody who reads this please add a balling ass picture of Nova for me if you cant see it. Im currently away from my computer. Thanks
 
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Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Vengeance135 said:
Okay so this is what I got from this discussion:
Fromundacheese and Eevee based their MU opinion off of sets they play with each other.
If Joker and Batgirl pushblocked they both have no options in neutral or can benefit from this in anyway.
Joker has infinite meter.
Jokers corner game and damage is equivalent to Batgirls somehow
I suck and AL Eevee is a better player then me
I'm a Nova Corp Officer.
Just one question guys.. can I be this guy?


Just in case the picture didn't show its Nova from the Nova Corp.

@ somebody who reads this please add a balling ass picture of Nova for me if you cant see it. Im currently away from my computer. Thanks
Click to expand...
 
SonicFox5000

SonicFox5000

The Best.
Jokers neutral game can outspace like half the cast. Granted it does leave him minus, he is safe on block when he plays his neutral game. People can zone him out but his tools in the neutral are reaaaaally good.
@Fromundaman if you get BG in the corner, then that BG did something horrifically wrong. And she has sone of the best options out the corner because the only way your gonna keep otging into a 33/33/33 is if you have meter. And if I block you cant set anything else back up without getting flying bat in the face.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Plus frames aren't pointless, I think the conversation just got polarized enough for Vengeance to say they're worthless and Eevee to say they are the absolute greatest for Joker.
Realistically, they are decent. We have the mixup options of instant j2 and b1, but ij2 has to be RIGHT in their face, which isn't always where we are at plus frames.
I do utilize the resets/frametraps into teeth + flower all the time, they're great. I was a big proponent of everyone working them into their game, if you recall.
Now if they guess right against our little mixup, instant jump 2 is hella punishable, while b1 will lead to safe options. But b1 only really leads to crowbar and some corner push/oki, while instant j2 leads to a full reset. Kinda skews the risk reward and will effect how a smart player blocks.
It doesn't factor in a huge amount, but it should at least be mentioned that instant j2 is pretty difficult to pull off, whereas other mixups options on most characters are exponentially easier.
I think what Vengeance really meant is that Batgirl is a lot more dangerous when she is at plus frames because 50/50 every time into vortex, big corner damage, etc.

And fuck you. I'm Nova. I miss Richard so bad. I hope he comes back in this next arc they are doing.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Ok guys I've further tested my corner setup and you can punish almost all of Batgirls wakeups including CARTWHEEL ON WHIFF. If she tech rolls you'll get hit by Redemption but nothing else, the rest of her wakeups are either punishable or stuffable. If she doesn't tech roll she can flying bat but that's it. Either way she has to spend meter to get offense going from this setup. And although bat evade 1 can get her out of the corner you can just shoot gun and it'll hit her out of the air. Here it is:

starter~db2MB, d2~db3, j2~db3, 21(first hit)~db3, 32~db3, b13. The 3 whiffs leaving this setup to work. Mess about with it Jokers and see what you can do, I haven't tested it except on Batgirl so god knows what you can avoid/punish with others...
AL Eevee said:
Batgirl can keep the vortex going in the corner and can add some damage by adding f23( example: B12/B2u3>F23>D2>Bola I'm the only BG doing this and it's somewhat difficult) or by spending a bar on flying bat and canceling into D2>Bola. Flying bat, on reaction, can stop them from jumping out and can lead back into the vortex, the same with cartwheel depending on the distance. How long the vortex goes on for depends on your ability to guess right and/or the execution of the Batgirl player.
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Nope you're not the only one, I do that too if I decide to go for vortex :) I'M probably the only Batgirl who goes for optimized damage every time- 59%. I do starter~db2u, f23, f23~df2MB, f23, 111~db2u.
Vengeance135 said:
Joker needs meter to cycle pressure, she really doesn't. She can carry Joker right to the corner ending in the corner with 50+% done into knockdown where Joker has to guess, Joker doesn't get that kind of damage unless you get a teeth J3 setup LOL nor pressure and plus frames again are irrelevant because if Batgirl feels pressured she can just pushblock and Joker is back to square one. Joker has to spend meter to get damage and even if he does it won't as close as what Batgirl can get in the corner. Batgirl doesn't need meter to fuck you up and she can get a high damaging corner combo with 1 bar lol. I for real cant take this conversation seriously guys lol.
I'm done here
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You're sending different messages here, saying Joker needs meter but Batgirl doesn't. If she's so busy pushblocking all your plus frames then how is she not using meter? Batgirl doesn't have 'pressure' because she has no plus frames to work with whereas you do, and before you say cartwheel all the options are punishable and all you need to do is block it a certain way which isn't that hard.
Saying she can carry Joker to the corner is irrelevant, Joker can carry Batgirl there too. But that's all potential, not actual damage. She can carry you there but that doesn't mean she does every time. Joker still gets mid-high 40s in damage guaranteed anyway at the least so by averaging out the fact Batgirls vortex combos do 21% and 28% midscreen and her corner combos do up to 60% she gets an average of 40% too. No advantage damage-wise in general.
You can't take the discussion seriously because you're looking at it completely one-sided. Even the EVO CHAMP, who plays BOTH characters says Joker's neutral does fine IN THIS MATCHUP. You don't know the facts about Batgirl and you think it's just easy for us to get in and go ham on vortex but you don't understand that Joker has better options in general.
In the corner yes it is even and do you know why? Yes she does a lot of damage in the corner for one bar, but you have unblockable setups, OTGs so we can't wakeup out of any followups and even the above setup. Your corner game is just as deadly as ours.
Fromundaman said:
From my experience, Joker vs Batgirl:

-Batgirl's B1 has more range than anything we have and will beat D2 at the start of the match BUT it has no disjoint, meaning that D2 will beat it in a lot of other situations.

-We can punish all cartwheel variations, but the low option can only be full combo punished with 11 if you stood blocked the first few hits. This does require a correct guess or some godlike execution to cover all 3 options in one motion.

-Gunshot stops all of BG's projectiles, but smoke bomb stops gunshot. HOWEVER, if BG waits to see the gun to teleport, then gunshot will hit her out of the teleport's startup. If she tries to smoke bomb as soon as she sees Joker move then she leaves herself open to switch stance mindgames. SWITCH STANCE IS GOOD IN THIS MATCHUP! (No really, I'm serious.)

-After blocking a B2D1 (I think? The overhead/low), the B2U3 or the B12, a B1 will stop anything she tries to do afterwards (If she cancels into BF3, then this still applies after a blocked BF3). If she blocks she is in a 50/50 since B13 will cross up but B1>crowbar will not. Both of these give setups on knockdown. Off of crowbar we have a billion things so won't get into that, but off of B13 crossup a neutral jump will beat every wakeup except flying bat while a forward jump will make flying bat whiff for a D2>RLG full combo punish.
MB F3 will beat all wakeups, but it depends on the timing. If you release it early, it will beat Bat Evade, Flying Bat and cartwheel. If you hold it then it beats Teleport and Bat Evade.
If she just sits there and blocks then we can put on pressure.
If we sit there and block then we can punish all of those wakeups, but we have to guess on cartwheel and if BG just gets up then we return to a close range neutral game, which is bad for us. Close range neutral game means we are already in a 50/50 since both overhead and low options will hit, so this is bad.

It essentially becomes a guess for both players.


If I had to actually give an advantage, I'd say it's slight advantage to Batgirl ONLY because she requires a lot less execution/effort to do anything.
If we were to go with perfect execution, then it's even at worst. We have all the tools to fight her at any range, do more damage with combos that can also loop back into themselves, are far less punishable and have a better pressure game once we get pressure started (Sorry, I keep forgetting we don't believe in Joker pressure either). That said, a *potential* Joker advantage can only be applied to theory fighting, as no one will ever have perfect execution with this character.

In terms of a real match, I could see this hovering between 4.5-5.5 and 5-5, so relatively even. The matchup is definitely more annoying than it is hard.
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-That's incorrect, your d2 is 12 frames and has further reach than Batgirls 14 frame b1. You must be doing it too late at the start of the match or something.

-It's only if you stand block the first hit, if you block low high low you can punish.

-You can actually backdash gun cancel and it'll avoid smoke bomb too iirc.

-The string's B2D3 lol. B12 is only -2 so if you try to b1 us after that you open yourself up to getting flying bat....ted. You can however d1 us and either cancel that into bgb, crowbar or whatever you choose. B2U3 and B2D3 you don't even need to respect because you can backdash after the B2 but if you do block it then yeah you can do whatever.

In terms of every post there's been about these two characters I have to say Fromundaman, this is the best one. Every point in your post except the points I just discussed are completely correct. 5.5-4.5 Batgirl favour.
 
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Pig Of The Hut

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
StevoSuprem0 said:
First up, based on my variance sorting (which we don't have to follow exactly, I just thought it woud serve as a good place to start) isssssss.........*drumroll*................................

ZOD!
Some of us think this a 2-8 and extremely difficult, others believe it to be nearly even, and a few of us have even played the same people to come to these very different conclusions.
Does a difficult neutral game with perilous zoning win out over extreme vulnerability on KD? Let's discuss. (But it's 2AM here and I have work in 5 hours, so for now, I'm going to bed...)
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This MU is 3-7

I've never played a joker I couldn't 20-4 and usually during the sets I start playing lazy

This is not to be rude in any way but it's just to point out this MU is extremely bad for joker
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Vengeance135 said:
Okay so this is what I got from this discussion:
Jokers corner game and damage is equivalent to Batgirls somehow
Click to expand...
Well you got the wrong idea, unless you can quote us saying that he gets the same damage as BG in the corner I think you'll find you've misread the conversation. The corner games are both good in different ways. She gets damage and your wakeups are bad so that helps us, but you have unblockables, OTGs and very good oki yourself.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Oi you two, quit it. Matchup discussion pls.

Also is everyone in agreeance with 5.5-4.5 BG favour?
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Youphemism said:
3 said 6-4, 2 said 5.5-4.5/5-5 so not "everyone". I was just coming to that as a compromise, BG has more decisive 6-4s imo.
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SonicFox5000 said:
Six.
Four.
Batgirl favor.
As strong as jokers neutrl game is. It is not as dangeroys as Ams neutral. The only time this MU becomes 5/5is when joker gets bg in the corner, which batgirl has like 50 options that get her out due to Jokers lack of mobility. He csn get zoned and rushed down. Joker needs gimmicks to win but BG is not having it.
Click to expand...
Looks decisive enough for me.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Qwark28 said:
Looks decisive enough for me.
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Ok 1. that's not everyone.
2. 6-4 midscreen, 5-5 in the corner. You do the math.

It was a question and I asked because not literally everyone said 6-4. I'm not saying I'm not willing to say it's 6-4, 5.5-4.5 is pretty much that.
 
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