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Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Ok 1. that's not everyone.
2. 6-4 midscreen, 5-5 in the corner. You do the math.

It was a question and I asked because not literally everyone said 6-4.
You do realise we don't do decimals?

Midscreen 6-4, corner for each they each get a point.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You do realise we don't do decimals?

Midscreen 6-4, corner for each they each get a point.
You sure? There's a few people that've done mu numbers by decimal. I'm still leaning to 5-5 BUT I might need more exp in the mu before I go final on that so I'm not going to give a final number.

Eh? "corner for each they each get a point"?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
6-4 Batgirl, Jokers neutral is ass. Best spacing option has whiff issues when cancelled into his safest option but nets a +5 with 2% chip or 10% restand and pushback that keeps him in a state where he can't do shit. Joker can space out half the cast? Nah braaaa Joker has to commit to his options that of which are all unsafe minus what I said prior. Beyond that everything he has in neutral is reactable and easy to deal with. I just don't understand this.
On ground
D2- best footsie option. Startup frames 12, on block -14, on whiff lets be serious here. Can be stuffed pretty easy by most of the cast. Has a gap between said move and canister, crowbar, gun (Joke), and teeth which means he has to stick with acid.
D3- Range is awesome af, to stupid on whiff and block to even use unless its at max range and your opponent knows he can punish it or you know it will hit.

In air:
Jokers Jump arc is great because of how short it is but that is a good and a bad thing depending on who he is fighting.
J2 is godlike, but can be beaten by 90% of the casts J1. Has great ambiguous shit but is -3 on block which nets gaps in Jokers follow-up.
J3 GODLIKE. Great range and is plus 1 on block. Can be whiff punished hard though and can be beaten but 90% of the casts J1

These in my opinion are Jokers best footsie tools. To say he outspaces half the cast is upplaying the shit out of him. He would be top tier if he could do that. I still don't and probably won't ever understand how they are even in the corner, not even a little bit. If Joker had infinite meter though... It would maybe favor him.

@StevoSuprem0 sorry bro but I am Nova, @fromundacheese has spoken :joker:
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Your jump frame data is incorrect. J3 is +1 when blocked nearly instantly. J2 has no gaps between even 32 if done low enough, one thing I do is non deep J2 into 32 that leaves a few frames gap to try to d1 but not enough for it to be active, hence catching a counterhit for full combo.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Your jump frame data is incorrect. J3 is +1 when blocked nearly instantly. J2 has no gaps between even 32 if done low enough, one thing I do is non deep J2 into 32 that leaves a few frames gap to try to d1 but not enough for it to be active, hence catching a counterhit for full combo.
Thank you I appreciate that. Just going by the regular said data. Of course stuff is different in the air. Thanks NIKKAH btw 32 is better then 21 as I always said :joker:
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
6-4 Batgirl, Jokers neutral is ass. Best spacing option has whiff issues when cancelled into his safest option but nets a +5 with 2% chip or 10% restand and pushback that keeps him in a state where he can't do shit. Joker can space out half the cast? Nah braaaa Joker has to commit to his options that of which are all unsafe minus what I said prior. Beyond that everything he has in neutral is reactable and easy to deal with. I just don't understand this.
On ground
D2- best footsie option. Startup frames 12, on block -14, on whiff lets be serious here. Can be stuffed pretty easy by most of the cast. Has a gap between said move and canister, crowbar, gun (Joke), and teeth which means he has to stick with acid.
D3- Range is awesome af, to stupid on whiff and block to even use unless its at max range and your opponent knows he can punish it or you know it will hit.

In air:
Jokers Jump arc is great because of how short it is but that is a good and a bad thing depending on who he is fighting.
J2 is godlike, but can be beaten by 90% of the casts J1. Has great ambiguous shit but is -3 on block which nets gaps in Jokers follow-up.
J3 GODLIKE. Great range and is plus 1 on block. Can be whiff punished hard though and can be beaten but 90% of the casts J1

These in my opinion are Jokers best footsie tools. To say he outspaces half the cast is upplaying the shit out of him. He would be top tier if he could do that. I still don't and probably won't ever understand how they are even in the corner, not even a little bit. If Joker had infinite meter though... It would maybe favor him.
You really haven't been listening to anyone then if you still have the exact same opinion as when we started. Just have a look back through people's posts where we've discussed it. We've explained that they both have very very good corner games, she gets damage OR vortex and can stuff your wakeups, Joker has unblockable setups as well as OTGs and generally not-so-bad oki. I also explained he has a setup to avoid almost all of Batgirls wakeups anyway for another option in the corner.

Jokers sweep and d2 are -14, but Batgirl can't even punish them with cartwheel if you space them right. D2 should either be being cancelled into gun dash cancel (forward dash nets you a conversion, backdash avoids certain moves) or acid for your safest options. The range he has on d2 and d3 are better than anything Batgirl has, so even for a small amount of time he can give himself some space.
His jump normals can only really be beat by a preemptive j1 from Batgirl, otherwise it's a trade or you get the conversion.
Joker doesn't need infinite meter, he builds enough from all the teeth you'll be throwing out in the corner lol. As you said it'd favour him with infinite meter, but with normal meter it's even.

Thinking about it guys, Batgirl can even d3 acid flower so even that's not safe...I'll go with 6-4 too, it's probably just a little bit of inexperience that's making me wonder otherwise.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
You really haven't been listening to anyone then if you still have the exact same opinion as when we started. Just have a look back through people's posts where we've discussed it. We've explained that they both have very very good corner games, she gets damage OR vortex and can stuff your wakeups, Joker has unblockable setups as well as OTGs and generally not-so-bad oki. I also explained he has a setup to avoid almost all of Batgirls wakeups anyway for another option in the corner.

Jokers sweep and d2 are -14, but Batgirl can't even punish them with cartwheel if you space them right. D2 should either be being cancelled into gun dash cancel (forward dash nets you a conversion, backdash avoids certain moves) or acid for your safest options. The range he has on d2 and d3 are better than anything Batgirl has, so even for a small amount of time he can give himself some space.
His jump normals can only really be beat by a preemptive j1 from Batgirl, otherwise it's a trade or you get the conversion.
Joker doesn't need infinite meter, he builds enough from all the teeth you'll be throwing out in the corner lol. As you said it'd favour him with infinite meter, but with normal meter it's even.

Thinking about it guys, Batgirl can even d3 acid flower so even that's not safe...I'll go with 6-4 too, it's probably just a little bit of inexperience that's making me wonder otherwise.
D2 dash cancel is deathly -. Acid doesn't hit max range. If you're jumping while he D3s he's fucked. D2 cannot AA on reaction.

-14 means Joker does 2 things

Sits there and takes the free dash/jump that batgirl has
Backdashes

Jump normals being beat is like that vs the whole cast. Doesn't mean he does not lose the matchup.

Joker does not throw out 10 teeth at a time, most you'll throw is 2-3. Joker does not have unblockable setups on batgirl without making a read even after the combo, you really need to read previous posts. Oki is horrible, his wakeups are mediocre. OTGs do not matter at all because he can not convert into any decent damage or post-block situation.

Which Joker have you played
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
D2 dash cancel is deathly -. Acid doesn't hit max range. If you're jumping while he D3s he's fucked. D2 cannot AA on reaction.

-14 means Joker does 2 things

Sits there and takes the free dash/jump that batgirl has
Backdashes

Jump normals being beat is like that vs the whole cast. Doesn't mean he does not lose the matchup.

Joker does not throw out 10 teeth at a time, most you'll throw is 2-3. Joker does not have unblockable setups on batgirl without making a read even after the combo, you really need to read previous posts. Oki is horrible, his wakeups are mediocre. OTGs do not matter at all because he can not convert into any decent damage or post-block situation.

Which Joker have you played
Do you see what I am talking about @The_PantyChrist @StevoSuprem0 @Amplified$hotz and everybody else? Why should we take this discussion seriously? Thank you for being a bit more clear then I was whorek
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
D2 dash cancel is deathly -. Acid doesn't hit max range. If you're jumping while he D3s he's fucked. D2 cannot AA on reaction.

-14 means Joker does 2 things

Sits there and takes the free dash/jump that batgirl has
Backdashes

Jump normals being beat is like that vs the whole cast. Doesn't mean he does not lose the matchup.

Joker does not throw out 10 teeth at a time, most you'll throw is 2-3. Joker does not have unblockable setups on batgirl without making a read even after the combo, you really need to read previous posts. Oki is horrible, his wakeups are mediocre. OTGs do not matter at all because he can not convert into any decent damage or post-block situation.

Which Joker have you played
Not against Batgirl, since this is a matchup discussion, and at max range she literally has no punish for d2~gun because you can beat every option bar maybe bat evade with delayed gun or backwards dash cancel.
True, so do that instead of gun/dash cancel at closer ranges.
Yeah but someone jumping is pretty obvious, why would you sweep when they jump?
Fair enough, even then he has j1 and I know I know teleport but j1 is so fast that teleport would probably have to be done on a read.
At -14 though BG is most likely going to do reversal cartwheel to punish, which is where spacing is key. Yeah of course she can also forward dash/jump but it's not like she has killer pressure after that, if she goes for vortex that's still 14/15 frames on startup so on a read you can just d1 into OTG setup or whatever. If she jumps in you can backdash b1/b2 after blocking j2.
I'm not saying he doesn't lose it.
Yeah but the whole combo builds you back half a bar, you use a bar into another combo that builds half a bar and voila. No meter lost :DOGE
You said you're fucked by all her wakeups, just block them...flying bat is -17, cartwheel can be stuffed with a d1, smoke bomb is -18, bat evade is most likely your main problem and even then you can just gunshot her as she falls and dash in some. OTGs do matter because it stops her from waking up/escaping the corner. It at least gives you a way to keep her there. Any blockstring you can just cancel into flower for plus frames then continue with what you're doing.

I can't remember which one(s), but as I said I don't have as much exp as you guys probably do. Some of the things are from lab work, some from watching high-level play videos, some from playing online with others. I AM going with 6-4 anyway in the end :p
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
You know what, believe what you want man. You don't understand how this matchup is played or how Joker is played if you don't think it's a disadvantage to "just block" after a combo which the continuation of is a 100% reset. I'm done, not worth arguing.

These are words that come from someone who has never played a competent Joker for any period of time.
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
Not against Batgirl, since this is a matchup discussion, and at max range she literally has no punish for d2~gun because you can beat every option bar maybe bat evade with delayed gun or backwards dash cancel.
True, so do that instead of gun/dash cancel at closer ranges.
Yeah but someone jumping is pretty obvious, why would you sweep when they jump?
Fair enough, even then he has j1 and I know I know teleport but j1 is so fast that teleport would probably have to be done on a read.
At -14 though BG is most likely going to do reversal cartwheel to punish, which is where spacing is key. Yeah of course she can also forward dash/jump but it's not like she has killer pressure after that, if she goes for vortex that's still 14/15 frames on startup so on a read you can just d1 into OTG setup or whatever. If she jumps in you can backdash b1/b2 after blocking j2.
I'm not saying he doesn't lose it.
Yeah but the whole combo builds you back half a bar, you use a bar into another combo that builds half a bar and voila. No meter lost :DOGE
You said you're fucked by all her wakeups, just block them...flying bat is -17, cartwheel can be stuffed with a d1, smoke bomb is -18, bat evade is most likely your main problem and even then you can just gunshot her as she falls and dash in some. OTGs do matter because it stops her from waking up/escaping the corner. It at least gives you a way to keep her there. Any blockstring you can just cancel into flower for plus frames then continue with what you're doing.

I can't remember which one(s), but as I said I don't have as much exp as you guys probably do. Some of the things are from lab work, some from watching high-level play videos, some from playing online with others. I AM going with 6-4 anyway in the end :p
A blocked blossom only leads into another blossom, d2, or crowbar. Also batgirl may not have frames on much but I guess that's the price for a meter less vortex with all the tools that she has. Her wake up options also make jokers life a living hell and he's a character who absolutely needs to capitalize when he can, just blocking also lets her get back up and they return to neutral, and a punish attempt for 1 wake up gets punished by others, sometimes heavily.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You know what, believe what you want man. You don't understand how this matchup is played or how Joker is played if you don't think it's a disadvantage to "just block" after a combo which the continuation of is a 100% reset. I'm done, not worth arguing.

These are words that come from someone who has never played a competent Joker for any period of time.
You're right, I don't know as much as you about how Joker's played, which is why I'm open to this discussion of the matchup between our characters.
Fine, don't block, continue the combo for your 100% reset then if that gives you a bigger payout. But you're the one who said her wakeups were a problem so I suggested you block them and punish for full combo.

I just said I do have experience against a competent Joker, just not as much matchup experience as you guys probably do. So "never played a competent Joker for any period of time" is a complete misread. Lab work doesn't equal lack of matchup knowledge, refer to lab monster 16bit. He knows matchups from having been in the lab and looked at the characters' options, which is what I'm doing with BG/Joker. On the Joker side of things I'm listening to you guys with what you're saying about Joker and I'm just suggesting options based on what can be done from testing it in the lab. I'm not by any means saying "definitely do this when this happens" I'm just saying you can do it is all. In the end if we agree it's 6-4 and we agree on the basic things rather than the complex metas around specific moves does much else really matter?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I hope everybody see's why I didn't take this discussion seriously lol however....
I am still Nova....
FEEL THE POWER OF THE NOVA CORP!!!!!
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
A blocked blossom only leads into another blossom, d2, or crowbar. Also batgirl may not have frames on much but I guess that's the price for a meter less vortex with all the tools that she has. Her wake up options also make jokers life a living hell and he's a character who absolutely needs to capitalize when he can, just blocking also lets her get back up and they return to neutral, and a punish attempt for 1 wake up gets punished by others, sometimes heavily.
You're telling me two different things here. You're saying he should capitalize when he can but her wakeups are a problem, but you also say you shouldn't block them because that'll let her return to neutral. So what are you supposed to do?