"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[The PantyChrist]

Guys joker has problems

 

[OnlineRon91]

Yea, he sucks.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Who designs a character whose trait involves successfully parrying 3 times.

 

[Qwark28]

I personally think he's viable. Sure he has the worst character design in the game but 3-4 7-3 matchups is all he has.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Guys joker has problems

Was watching your matches from GGA. I noticed you don't seem to use d2 xx teeth in combos at all. Is this an execution thing where you aren't comfortable with it yet?
I saw you land a pretty large amount of j3's midscreen, but you followed them up with just teeth, which the opponent can escape with a techroll and backdash. If you do j3 into d2 xx RLG, b3, j2, sweep you put them in an ambiguous jump in situation where if you jump quickly you will cross them up or if you wait slightly you will not. This doesn't work when you're in the corner, but there you can do something like j3, d2 xx close teeth, d1, d1 xx close teeth, 3 flower, 3 flower for about 40%. Execution is a little heavy there and you have to juggle them pretty well with back to back d1's to keep them in the air until the teeth go off, but both of these are pretty strong options.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I personally think he's viable. Sure he has the worst character design in the game but 3-4 7-3 matchups is all he has.

I think there are quite possibly a good amount more than 3-4, but I agree that he definitely is viable. He just has a pretty high execution curve relative to this game and struggles in the neutral game against many characters until he manages to corner them.

 

[Qwark28]

Was watching your matches from GGA. I noticed you don't seem to use d2 xx teeth in combos at all. Is this an execution thing where you aren't comfortable with it yet?
I saw you land a pretty large amount of j3's midscreen, but you followed them up with just teeth, which the opponent can escape with a techroll and backdash. If you do j3 into d2 xx RLG, b3, j2, sweep you put them in an ambiguous jump in situation where if you jump quickly you will cross them up or if you wait slightly you will not. This doesn't work when you're in the corner, but there you can do something like j3, d2 xx close teeth, d1, d1 xx close teeth, 3 flower, 3 flower for about 40%. Execution is a little heavy there and you have to juggle them pretty well with back to back d1's to keep them in the air until the teeth go off, but both of these are pretty strong options.

A good thing to add would be that IIRC J3 will never crossup

I think there are quite possibly a good amount more than 3-4, but I agree that he definitely is viable. He just has a pretty high execution curve relative to this game and struggles in the neutral game against many characters until he manages to corner them.

Which ones are you thinking could be 7-3?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Which ones are you thinking could be 7-3?

I'm still on the fence about Batman and Superman. Sinestro is rough as well. Zod is most certainly 7-3. Flash, IMO, definitely is as well. MMH probably is. Aquaman likely also is. Wonder Woman has a high probability as well. I think Gil often says Nightwing is, but I can't comment there; I'm inclined to disagree, but I don't have enough MU experience. Grundy I lose to alot, but I think that's just an issue I have; I need to play that matchup differently than I currently do. Hawkgirl maybe due to her ability to zone him out and get around gunshots due to animation crap, but maybe not.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm still on the fence about Batman and Superman. Sinestro is rough as well. Zod is most certainly 7-3. Flash, IMO, definitely is as well. MMH probably is. Aquaman likely also is. Wonder Woman has a high probability as well. I think Gil often says Nightwing is, but I can't comment there; I'm inclined to disagree, but I don't have enough MU experience. Grundy I lose to alot, but I think that's just an issue I have; I need to play that matchup differently than I currently do. Hawkgirl maybe due to her ability to zone him out and get around gunshots due to animation crap, but maybe not.

Batman is 6-4 his favour, I've been playing vs UFG and with an offline buddy since release and had the chance to get a few sets in with Arma, all batman has in this matchup is zoning and nothing else, no mixups and no decent frametraps.

Superman does not have any continuous pressure anymore, F23 is good but not that good outside of the corner and his zoning is only decent, midscreen damage is slightly lower than ours and he can't wake up.

Aquaman and MMH idk. They both cannot rush him down, only zone him. MMH in the future could be but I don't see it in this stage of the game, Aquaman cannot open us up, he only has b12 and D2 against us and I think we will be able to find a way around those soon enough, b12 especially.

I have NW 5-5 and in the future 6-4 in our favor, I really don't understand how this character can do anything to Joker to gain an advantage.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Ha yeah at GGA I was just kinda burned out from playing the game so much the week before at the GGA battle, then an exhibition and frosty faustings. Like 24 hours p gaming in 3 days. I was just playing lazy honestly. I don't personally like the j3d2 rlg cus of scaling. And the d2 teeth is something I can do about half the time but still not confident enough to make it a go to punisher yet. I think I need to spend more time in actual matches than in the lab. It just sucks that 32 crowbar/rlg are both interuptible on block. Maybe there's a better string like 212 but that sucked getting supered

 

[Qwark28]

Ha yeah at GGA I was just kinda burned out from playing the game so much the week before at the GGA battle, then an exhibition and frosty faustings. Like 24 hours p gaming in 3 days. I was just playing lazy honestly. I don't personally like the j3d2 rlg cus of scaling. And the d2 teeth is something I can do about half the time but still not confident enough to make it a go to punisher yet. I think I need to spend more time in actual matches than in the lab. It just sucks that 32 crowbar/rlg are both interuptible on block. Maybe there's a better string like 212 but that sucked getting supered

you can easily hit confirm 32 on block into 323 or flower

J3 D2 rlg is 33% setup or 36% full damage though, that's way more than anyone else gets off of such a long range and + on block jump attack.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Ha yeah at GGA I was just kinda burned out from playing the game so much the week before at the GGA battle, then an exhibition and frosty faustings. Like 24 hours p gaming in 3 days. I was just playing lazy honestly. I don't personally like the j3d2 rlg cus of scaling. And the d2 teeth is something I can do about half the time but still not confident enough to make it a go to punisher yet. I think I need to spend more time in actual matches than in the lab. It just sucks that 32 crowbar/rlg are both interuptible on block. Maybe there's a better string like 212 but that sucked getting supered

Yeah I stick with 21 xx RLG on hit and 212 xx teeth on block against everyone EXCEPT those fucking characters where portions of the 212 string whiff (Shazam, Batgirl, Catwoman, Grundy, Killer Frost) because that a full combo punish. In that case, you gotta switch it up.
I agree though, I spend more time in lab than I do playing as well alot of the time. I just hate online too much lol, so I stick to offline casuals when I can get them and locals.

 

[Qwark28]

At least you guys play, I don't even have time anymore with KI and learning stick

 

[The PantyChrist]

It also whiffs on aquaman

 

[The PantyChrist]

And what the actual fuck are we supposed to do about Bane?

 

[Qwark28]

And what the actual fuck are we supposed to do about Bane?

teeth, d2, d3, j3

what gives you trouble

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Batman is 6-4 his favour, I've been playing vs UFG and with an offline buddy since release and had the chance to get a few sets in with Arma, all batman has in this matchup is zoning and nothing else, no mixups and no decent frametraps.

Superman does not have any continuous pressure anymore, F23 is good but not that good outside of the corner and his zoning is only decent, midscreen damage is slightly lower than ours and he can't wake up.

Aquaman and MMH idk. They both cannot rush him down, only zone him. MMH in the future could be but I don't see it in this stage of the game, Aquaman cannot open us up, he only has b12 and D2 against us and I think we will be able to find a way around those soon enough, b12 especially.

I have NW 5-5 and in the future 6-4 in our favor, I really don't understand how this character can do anything to Joker to gain an advantage.

Batman is probably the biggest frame trap character in the game and has plenty of mixup with f3 shenanigans. I play Arma every week, and believe me, it's not fun at all. The only thing saving it is that Batman struggles on wakeup. If he didn't duck gunshot with basically every animation, fine, but that crap puts this MU into questionable ground for me.
I would also disagree that Aquaman can't rush him down. b1 is an insanely fast low advancing starter, his d2 is disgusting, great d1, trident rush builds insane meter while being safe and MB-able for crazy damage on hit AND block, and he easily breaks 35% off of pretty much every single conversion. Thus, we don't like him full screen or up close particularly well. Sure, he struggles getting up, but we have to put him on his ass first, and that's not very easy when he can play around Joker so well.
With Superman, his zoning is very good in the right hands. It just needs to be operated properly. There are heights that he can do air laser that gunshot will not his and cannot punish him for on whiff or block. F23 got nerfed, but it's certainly better than any of our strings for chasing people down. His wall carry is absolutely insane, and his corner combos are absurd (you guys haven't seen the new shit the West Coast and KDZ are doing, but it's disgusting). Then there's the unbelievable ambiguity of is OTG dive bomb, which yes, is punishable, but is basically a complete guess.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

And what the actual fuck are we supposed to do about Bane?

Bane basically sucks on wakeup because his oki is unbelievably bullshit. I stick with a lot of preemptive teeth, push blocking, and good spacing to keep him out and at bay. Once he is on cooldown, you gotta hurt him while the hurtin's good.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

It also whiffs on aquaman

I am going to go back through and check on all the characters, but it wasn't whiffing when I was playing Riyo at NEC. You sure about that?

 

[Qwark28]

Batman is probably the biggest frame trap character in the game and has plenty of mixup with f3 shenanigans. I play Arma every week, and believe me, it's not fun at all. The only thing saving it is that Batman struggles on wakeup. If he didn't duck gunshot with basically every animation, fine, but that crap puts this MU into questionable ground for me.
I would also disagree that Aquaman can't rush him down. b1 is an insanely fast low advancing starter, his d2 is disgusting, great d1, trident rush builds insane meter while being safe and MB-able for crazy damage on hit AND block, and he easily breaks 35% off of pretty much every single conversion. Thus, we don't like him full screen or up close particularly well. Sure, he struggles getting up, but we have to put him on his ass first, and that's not very easy when he can play around Joker so well.
With Superman, his zoning is very good in the right hands. It just needs to be operated properly. There are heights that he can do air laser that gunshot will not his and cannot punish him for on whiff or block. F23 got nerfed, but it's certainly better than any of our strings for chasing people down. His wall carry is absolutely insane, and his corner combos are absurd (you guys haven't seen the new shit the West Coast and KDZ are doing, but it's disgusting). Then there's the unbelievable ambiguity of is OTG dive bomb, which yes, is punishable, but is basically a complete guess.

What frametraps does batman have? Nothing but bats, which you want him using because it means then he's not zoning you. There's no mixup with f3, bats aren't low, f3 is 31f and if cancels it it's even easier to see.

He can rush, he can't open you up. How is he going to open you up with see able overheads? Anything he does that is unsafe you should D2/gunshot/flower, the chip from the MB trident is trading meter which is in his favour slightly depending on the circumstances. But we do like him up close, any character who we must rush we want up close, and when they are up close they give up their zoning advantage, thus making the matchup easier.

vs superman the whole point is him doing those lasers, if he's not doing gunshot checkable and punishable lasers then he's doing them sky high where you can even dash forward before they're out ( if you know he's gonna do it ) block and then dash again to be right in his face, otherwise you get a free dash as usual with him still being a bit -. High laser is an almost useless zoning tool because it's duckable so he must catch you off guard with it.

Good zoning is the kind of zoning that can check you dashing. Good players can use tools wells, that doesn't mean that the tools themselves are good, superman has zoning that is not fast and not difficult to avoid or block which in sequence gives you a free dash, someone like batman has much better zoning than superman.

His f23 doesn't hit airborne enemies above a certain height and he cannot AA us, it's very difficult to do so, J3 is more dominant from a certain range. Fullscreen he can't force us to block anything while we punish each other on grounded laser/gunshot reads, up close he wins and midscreen its even. His wall carry also serves us because if we get a crossup then its GGs and Superman can't really AA us. His prepatch corner combos were doing less damage than what we do with a 213 ender so it balances out.

 

[Qwark28]

Bane basically sucks on wakeup because his oki is unbelievably bullshit. I stick with a lot of preemptive teeth, push blocking, and good spacing to keep him out and at bay. Once he is on cooldown, you gotta hurt him while the hurtin's good.

Actually I was working on a list of things you can do to punish his wakeups but got bored and stopped, it involved doing a lot of different knockdowns and see what teeth/jump catches which wakeup.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Yes it was whiffing about a month ago online and in training although training mode is weird sometimes about whiffing and hitting

 

[Qwark28]

There was a statement that some things that whiff in game actually don't in training.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Batmans b11 the 2nd hit whiffs on joker in game I believe. But Bane basically runs train, his armor game and oki are outstanding,so is damage and when he's on debuff he can outrun us and I we even happen to catch him with a gunshot I doubt he'll care much

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Went through the whole cast real quick. Basically, the thread below is still correct, with the addition of Killer Frost on the whiff list. Mean some portion of it whiffs on about half the cast, with 11 whiffs being the final hit of 212 (most noticable and punishable). Terrible... ugh. Riyo must have not been holding down when he was blocking it.