Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Gilbagz]

any scene is good lol, i guess the american elitism discourages people, it is true that people dont give a fuck about anything that isnt in america

Lol I wouldn't generalise everyone like that. But the American scene is stronger and more credible, at least in comparison to Aus :L

 

[Fromundaman]

Haha, I usually wait until I have actual results to say anything.

That and until recently, I haven't been confident enough in my Joker to use him in more than 2-3 matches per tournament. This time though I think Lex is going to be on the bench for 90% of the tournament.


Actually Gil, I love watching footage from other countries.

 

[Qwark28]

youll also have footage in 1-2 months from Greece. we have many experienced players here and some were considered the best in their respective chars in mk9 by many. im going all joker unless i run into anything worse than 7 3

 

[Qwark28]

one thing for grundy, if theyre doing walking corpse in the corner you can pressure them all you want, you can cancels strings into df MB to do a MB F3 which will beat walking corpse.

edit: off of almost any knockdown in the corner you can do 21 on whiff

if you see the wakeup attack prompt then you do df mb on reaction to completely destroy his wakeups, if not you finish the string into anything you want.

in the buffs i do hope crowbar keeps the pushback on block, im imagining a scenario where you jump in, do 21/323 then do f232 crowbar/d1 crowbar respectively, that has 1/4 of the stage pushback

 

[Qwark28]

1,5 month old footage, my joker vs Crathen 's "how are you not top 10 in leaderboards" deathstroke.

main mistakes you should be looking out for

not enough capitalising and establishing respect on jokers j3 frametraps and being punished

not fuzzy guarding f3 (working on developing muscle memory to uppercut this)

moving when at recovery frames

impatience and frustration at some points due to falling for f3 so often when i knew to block it on reaction

 

[Qwark28]

some footage near the end with joker here http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/464164236

and at around 47-48 mins I play a FT5 with Nivek , Joker vs WW.

Hadn't been to offline casuals in about 2 months so my execution was very sloppy, was heartbroken when I missed the B1 into super around an hour and a minute in.

Also need to learn to use gunshot in matches where it's a keepaway tool.

also some games in the beginning vs MMH and later on vs doomsday

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/464183511

 

[Gilbagz]

Heres the footage from my tournie, played pretty poorly imo.
Dropped a lot of combos, got impatient against Black Adam, and had the wrong game plan for Ares.
Did showcase my midscreen teeth stuff when I didnt drop my combo
Overall I played pretty poorly, but did play a bit better than my last tourney
Just gotta get past the nerves

Edit: Also pardon my Martian. It was no where near ready for tourney play.

 

[Fromundaman]

I'll pull up footage from my last ranbats when I get my computer up and running sometime this or next week (It can be found on Arcade Legacy's twitch channel though). That said, that was one of the worst performances I've ever had, and I hope to do considerably better come Thursday's tournament.

 

[Qwark28]

Very nice footage, it gave me a couple of ideas for some new tech. When nervous just do regular BnBs, no need for any more difficult combos. Use more J3 to get in and a few matchup tips would be to zone out that batman when he was so low hp, he doesn't always have immunity to gunshot for the whole animation, at so low health he could've been dealt with fullscreen. VS BA don't throw gunshot, do it very rarely because I could see the dude trying to punish it on whiff with black magic.

VS Ares I always block high when I'm within jump distance due to how BS the overhead is lol

How come no use of J3?

Metzos look at the black adam match. THIS is how you jump lightning on reaction.

 

[Gilbagz]

Very nice footage, it gave me a couple of ideas for some new tech. When nervous just do regular BnBs, no need for any more difficult combos. Use more J3 to get in and a few matchup tips would be to zone out that batman when he was so low hp, he doesn't always have immunity to gunshot for the whole animation, at so low health he could've been dealt with fullscreen. VS BA don't throw gunshot, do it very rarely because I could see the dude trying to punish it on whiff with black magic.

VS Ares I always block high when I'm within jump distance due to how BS the overhead is lol

How come no use of J3?

Metzos look at the black adam match. THIS is how you jump lightning on reaction.

Yeah. I was confident in it though :L
Well at least thought I was.
Could hit 95% of the time in casuals.

Thanks. Really have no clue for the Ares match up lol.

But yeah in regards to j3.
I usually abuse it when the people don't punish it.
I play with the BA player and the Ares player a lot and they punish it all the time.
BA's walk speed is high enough that he can just walk out of range of j3 and b2,3 trip guard punish it.
He air to airs me with j1 alot so I didn't want to give him any damage and just get him to the corner.
By the end I got to impatient and whiffed a lot of j3's and got punished for a lot for of them.

Ares is similar. With the d2 buff he can anti air j3 really easily with d2. If I space my j3 correctly he can't, but again his air to air to j1,2 and 3 have insane hitboxes.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah. I was confident in it though :L
Well at least thought I was.
Could hit 95% of the time in casuals.

Thanks. Really have no clue for the Ares match up lol.

But yeah in regards to j3.
I usually abuse it when the people don't punish it.
I play with the BA player and the Ares player a lot and they punish it all the time.
BA's walk speed is high enough that he can just walk out of range of j3 and b2,3 trip guard punish it.
He air to airs me with j1 alot so I didn't want to give him any damage and just get him to the corner.
By the end I got to impatient and whiffed a lot of j3's and got punished for a lot for of them.

Ares is similar. With the d2 buff he can anti air j3 really easily with d2. If I space my j3 correctly he can't, but again his air to air to j1,2 and 3 have insane hitboxes.

TBH from a range where you'd do J3 would be a range where you cannot be punished, B23 will not punish J3 ever unless you unblock or block low, he's probably just backdashing it.

J3 is always meant to be doing really soon after the jump, you shouldn't be descending with J3 unless you're getting in from far away

 

[Metzos]

Metzos look at the black adam match. THIS is how you jump lightning on reaction.

You are right. Lightning is balanced. How did i not see it for so long? And if BA does MB lightning you still get hit while you are coming down from a jump, but whatever.

 

[Qwark28]

You are right. Lightning is balanced. How did i not see it for so long? And if BA does MB lightning you still get hit while you are coming down from a jump, but whatever.

I'm tired of saying what you can do to MY character which I've been playing for half year and being met with "this will happen" when that is not the case. After playing this char at such a high lvl with and against and finding most of his tech I think I know what can and can't be done when you react to his lightning, especially since my BA XP isn't once a week/2 months and I've broken down this character as far as he goes in this version.

Yes, lightning is one of the best projectiles. Yes, you will get hit if you jump it WRONG.

If jumped correctly then it will not hit you. I know because I do this ONLINE, Gilbagz did it OFFLINE and there is a list of punishes people get when they jump a lightning on reaction. If you jump it properly then you will not get hit by the last hit, MB or not.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/whiff-punishing-black-adams-lightning-strike.37154/

 

[Gilbagz]

You are right. Lightning is balanced. How did i not see it for so long? And if BA does MB lightning you still get hit while you are coming down from a jump, but whatever.

Actually I take less damage like that lol.
5% real damage over 5.5% chip :L
Also builds less meter!
Still shitty but better than giving him 5mb low lightnings in a row.

Low lightning has stupidly high chip damage and push back.
But 5% for one meter is fair enough.
If I jump it correctly I do get a gunshot punish.
Maybe the push back could get nerfed a bit.

The main risk i've found is, if I delay the jump to jump the mb lightning. If he black clouds I eat like 25% if he decides to mb lightning as well T.T
But I guess this is a risk on BA's part since I can punish with gunshot from closer ranges.

Just giving my 2 cents
Still annoying to fight his zoning.

 

[Metzos]

Actually I take less damage like that lol.
5% real damage over 5.5% chip :L
Also builds less meter!
Still shitty but better than giving him 5mb low lightnings in a row.

Low lightning has stupidly high chip damage and push back.
But 5% for one meter is fair enough.
If I jump it correctly I do get a gunshot punish.
Maybe the push back could get nerfed a bit.

The main risk i've found is, if I delay the jump to jump the mb lightning. If he black clouds I eat like 25% if he decides to mb lightning as well T.T
But I guess this is a risk on BA's part since I can punish with gunshot from closer ranges.

Just giving my 2 cents
Still annoying to fight his zoning.

Thats my point. You are basing your MU against BA with reads, which cant be consistent in tournament play. Thats why i was screaming all this time for BA to be normalized along with the other top characters. People were crying for DD's phantom hit box in body splash and his ES while characters like Adam, Superman etc, get away with murder here. I m speaking in general not only for Joker. If he black clouds 3 times you lose the round, along with the cheap dmg, meter build etc etc BA gains. Character's design is stupid.

 

[Metzos]

I'm tired of saying what you can do to MY character which I've been playing for half year and being met with "this will happen" when that is not the case. After playing this char at such a high lvl with and against and finding most of his tech I think I know what can and can't be done when you react to his lightning, especially since my BA XP isn't once a week/2 months and I've broken down this character as far as he goes in this version.

Yes, lightning is one of the best projectiles. Yes, you will get hit if you jump it WRONG.

If jumped correctly then it will not hit you. I know because I do this ONLINE, Gilbagz did it OFFLINE and there is a list of punishes people get when they jump a lightning on reaction. If you jump it properly then you will not get hit by the last hit, MB or not.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/whiff-punishing-black-adams-lightning-strike.37154/

So? Does this mean i cannot say my opinion about his bullshit? Cause they are bullshit. If you base your MU exp on reads or "if you do a correct jump" BS, that alone means BA's design is stupid. I have never seen in any fg, a projectile, which ON BLOCK, pushes the opponent at sweep range, when its done from point black range for example, builds a shit load of meter, hits low, deals extreme damage for a projectile, and on top of that is plus on block, all of that in one move. Also not to mention his frame traps, chip dmg, death by blocking trait bs etc etc. Dont get me wrong, there are faaaaar worse characters in the game than BA, but whenever i read posts of you trying to say BA is "fine" or that there are ways around his BS, WHICH ARE NOT CONSISTENT, it gets on my nerves.

 

[Qwark28]

So? Does this mean i cannot say my opinion about his bullshit? Cause they are bullshit. If you base your MU exp on reads or "if you do a correct jump" BS, that alone means BA's design is stupid. I have never seen in any fg, a projectile, which ON BLOCK, pushes the opponent at sweep range, when its done from point black range for example, builds a shit load of meter, hits low, deals extreme damage for a projectile, and on top of that is plus on block, all of that in one move. Also not to mention his frame traps, chip dmg, death by blocking trait bs etc etc. Dont get me wrong, there are faaaaar worse characters in the game than BA, but whenever i read posts of you trying to say BA is "fine" or that there are ways around his BS, WHICH ARE NOT CONSISTENT, it gets on my nerves.

I won't derail the thread anymore so i'll say that I never said BA is fine.

It does not mean that you can't say your opinion but when I say as a BA main that you can do this then you can damn well do this. Jumping it right means on reaction. The only time you will get hit by the ex lightning is if you just jump to any wave of his instead of looking for the distinct animation, somethat which in SF you know happens all day long.

That's my 0.02$, I see a problem with my char and I try to help, my advice will not be gimmicky.

 

[Metzos]

I won't derail the thread anymore so i'll say that I never said BA is fine.

It does not mean that you can't say your opinion but when I say as a BA main that you can do this then you can damn well do this. Jumping it right means on reaction. The only time you will get hit by the ex lightning is if you just jump to any wave of his instead of looking for the distinct animation, somethat which in SF you know happens all day long.

That's my 0.02$, I see a problem with my char and I try to help, my advice will not be gimmicky.

And i keep telling you, that you cannot do this consistently.... Jesus.... Do you know what happens if the BA player decides to do black magic instead of lightning? You get punished with a full combo... You cannot react to that when BA is zoning you. You can only base it on a read, neither you can do this by constantly watching his non-existent animations... SF does not have this kind of projectile, so your example is wrong, perhaps except Viper's ground pound.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

I see in the Deathstroke patch discussion thread they broke down how other character's nerfs/buffs will affect deathstroke. Anyone wanna start talking about what MU's may not be so bad anymore? Or new ways we can approach them.

For one, hopefully batgirl's bigger hitbox means it will be easier to crossup ji2 her while she's crouching. May have just been me not spacing appropriately, but i would whiff that shit all the time even if it looked like i was right on top of her.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I see in the Deathstroke patch discussion thread they broke down how other character's nerfs/buffs will affect deathstroke. Anyone wanna start talking about what MU's may not be so bad anymore? Or new ways we can approach them.

For one, hopefully batgirl's bigger hitbox means it will be easier to crossup ji2 her while she's crouching. May have just been me not spacing appropriately, but i would whiff that shit all the time even if it looked like i was right on top of her.

I find that happening a lot in several matchups... I think it's generally just a timing thing, but against certain people like batgirl it could exacerbated by having smaller hitboxes. I think that includes frost and a few others as well. Could be useful to test across the cast. There are people that have to be juggled differently during teeth loops due to weird hitboxes (surprising people, like black adam, green lantern, doomsday... it's odd).
Definitely agree though, going through the patch notes more comprehensively like that is a good idea. I'll try to start putting something together over the next couple of days

 

[Qwark28]

deathstroke may potentialy become 6-4, shazam 5-5, gl 6 4

BA will be dead even, im so sad with these huge ass nerfs

superman i can see as 6 4, same with aquaman

doomsday possible 5 5 depending on mb cowbar but probably 6 4

 

[StevoSuprem0]

deathstroke may potentialy become 6-4, shazam 5-5, gl 6 4

BA will be dead even, im so sad with these huge ass nerfs

superman i can see as 6 4, same with aquaman

doomsday possible 5 5 depending on mb cowbar but probably 6 4

Are you listing those from the opponent's perspective or Joker's?

 

[Qwark28]

Are you listing those from the opponent's perspective or Joker's?

opponents

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah, it may be best to wait until the patch hits so that we can see exactly how useful MB crowbar is gonna be.

 

[Fromundaman]

Well, while our buffs are useful, I think most of what will change matchups are nerfs to other characters. For example, Batman's trait nerf means we can actually move forward while being zoned, which will make the matchup considerably better.