Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Qwark28]

Yeah, Joker can outzone him, but he can get around it... just another match that you need to play smarter. In some ways, that's what I like about Joker... just needs to be more viable.
The dive he does (psycho crusher? I don't remember...) is punishable though right? And you can jump-> full combo punish a command grab if you read it properly, but that requires a good amount of matchup experience.

shazam will almost never command grab out of a string outside as a footsie tool

if you need to play smarter than your opponent then its a lost matchup lol, thats the essence of bad and good matchups.

the psycho crusher is punishable at select ranges and not for over 10% dmg unless very badly spaced

joker already has no zoning, noone gets hit by high projectiles that are that slow and you wont keep him out forever

 

[StevoSuprem0]

shazam will almost never command grab out of a string outside as a footsie tool

if you need to play smarter than your opponent then its a lost matchup lol, thats the essence of bad and good matchups.

the psycho crusher is punishable at select ranges and not for over 10% dmg unless very badly spaced

joker already has no zoning, noone gets hit by high projectiles that are that slow and you wont keep him out forever

I wouldn't call the gun slow, just has a shitty hitbox. Either way, I agree, Joker is pretty awesome in theory, but terrible on paper, and I think they know it. Just surprised we haven't seen him mentioned in all these posts yet...

 

[Qwark28]

I wouldn't call the gun slow, just has a shitty hitbox. Either way, I agree, Joker is pretty awesome in theory, but terrible on paper, and I think they know it. Just surprised we haven't seen him mentioned in all these posts yet...

the gun is slow for its purpose. its designed as a check for people dashing while all the other zoners of this type have either 8 or 10f projectiles

 

[Fromundaman]

e
joker beats noone while shazam beats joker lol

Okay, you have no idea how often I play this MU. This MU is very solidly 5-5. It's basically constant mindgames and reads between the two players. Hell, I might actually even put it slightly in Joker's favor simply because Shazam actually has to do some work to get in and that we can punish him really really hard for guessing wrong on those command grabs (Which by the way, can be useful outside of strings if you do teleport>Buffer command grab. He basically grabs you as he reappears, which means you don't see it and you can't interrupt it.)

Shazam has to play really patiently to get around teeth traps (Seriously, if you place teeth in the right places, you shut down his ability to teleport and he has to maneuver around teeth, crowbars, flower, gun and random gun dash cancels into whatever mixup you want.).

Also, most Shazams want to get up with teleport. A read teleport can be full combo punished regardless of which direction you went if you guess right. If you knock him down and place teeth on top of him, you can safely sit right next to him and wait to see what he does on wakeup.
-Normal/neutral wakeup: Do a F21 and combo off of teeth explosion.
-Psycho Crusher: This move has very little invincibility, and you can just block it if you were standing next to him waiting. I also believe teeth should hit him out of it but can't remember. In any case you can punish psycho crusher with B13.
-Teleport: If you're standing next to him waiting to see the wakeup, you can jump either forward of back on reaction to seeing the startup animation for the teleport and try to guess where he's going for a full combo punish. If you guess wrong, you're safe anyway. If you want guaranteed damage, you can wait and just gun him out of teleport as he comes out.

Another thing, if he does a blockstring into a command grab, this is now a high/low mixup, but the risk/reward factor is actually NOT in Shazam's favor (Which is really fucking dumb and I hope gets patched to be safer.). If he guesses wrong and say uses the high command grab and you duck, or vice versa, that's a full combo punish for us. Now our full combo will do some 40-some % with a potential reset at the end. Shazam's full combo if he hits us does mid 30%s for 1 bar and ends in a hard knockdown that he can really only follow up wiith a semi-ambiguous ji2.
I mean you could just pushblock strings to make Shazam unable to command grab you, but as it stands right now, his strings into command grabs are just 50/50s for both players, with our reward being better than his.


Oh and when you're spacing teeth to keep him out, be wary. A Well timed Psycho Crusher will go over teeth and put him in, so always be looking for it and have either gun, Flower, D2 or j3 ready.




Yes, I know this info is useless to anyone not playing against the 3 Shazam players in existence.

 

[Fromundaman]

Just going to throw out, After F23>Breath, a D2 canceled into anything beats almost all of Superman's options except a backdash.

 

[Qwark28]

Oh and when you're spacing teeth to keep him out, be wary. A Well timed Psycho Crusher will go over teeth and put him in, so always be looking for it and have either gun, Flower, D2 or j3 ready.

Okay, you have no idea how often I play this MU. This MU is very solidly 5-5. It's basically constant mindgames and reads between the two players. Hell, I might actually even put it slightly in Joker's favor simply because Shazam actually has to do some work to get in and that we can punish him really really hard for guessing wrong on those command grabs (Which by the way, can be useful outside of strings if you do teleport>Buffer command grab. He basically grabs you as he reappears, which means you don't see it and you can't interrupt it.)

You need to do more work to get in if he has the lifelead than the opposite. 2 of his dashes from fullscreen put him right next to you and he can dash or teleport after every whiffed gunshot. Teleport to get in is dumb because it's punishable at -11, doing commang grab is suicide, if your shazam training partner uses this then you've not conditioned him not to use it which tells me you don't punish it. You can't let gimmicks get you.

Matchups are decided on the highest lvl of play. That means no gimmicks, no stupid not fully invincible wakeup and no obvious patterns based on the opposition you play.

Shazam has to play really patiently to get around teeth traps (Seriously, if you place teeth in the right places, you shut down his ability to teleport and he has to maneuver around teeth, crowbars, flower, gun and random gun dash cancels into whatever mixup you want.).

Also, most Shazams want to get up with teleport. A read teleport can be full combo punished regardless of which direction you went if you guess right. If you knock him down and place teeth on top of him, you can safely sit right next to him and wait to see what he does on wakeup.
-Normal/neutral wakeup: Do a F21 and combo off of teeth explosion.
-Psycho Crusher: This move has very little invincibility, and you can just block it if you were standing next to him waiting. I also believe teeth should hit him out of it but can't remember. In any case you can punish psycho crusher with B13.
-Teleport: If you're standing next to him waiting to see the wakeup, you can jump either forward of back on reaction to seeing the startup animation for the teleport and try to guess where he's going for a full combo punish. If you guess wrong, you're safe anyway. If you want guaranteed damage, you can wait and just gun him out of teleport as he comes out.

People will duck against joker, gun is ineffective to catch front dashes and is death on whiff. Flower is an up close tool, he doesn't have to maneuver out of anything since he's already achieved his goal. Crowbar is majorly unsafe and a free command grab and teeth can be read and punished.

Most shazams do. Not the best. High lvl shazams, which are the people matchup charts apply to, don't always do teleport all day.

Backward teleports will not be punished since they're only -9. Technically you can but it will not happen reliably in tournament play. Forward teleport can be punished if you're looking for it. If you're looking for it then you're trying to bait it, thus not doing anything else.

No shazam will wake up with psycho crusher if he knows its not invincible on wakeup.

F21 is not an overhead nor a mixup after teeth, all they have to do is block low.

I'm not even gonna mention that you can't lay teeth after you've knocked him down and have time to even get a normal out before his teleport starts up and is already safe. This is basically what everyone has been saying, you CANT lay down teeth because even with your current lacking wakeup game with joker, if yo add someone who can teleport right out of the corner, all setups including the ones ive found that some characters can't escape without guessing right and any oki pressure then you effectivelly have nothing on him.

Another thing, if he does a blockstring into a command grab, this is now a high/low mixup, but the risk/reward factor is actually NOT in Shazam's favor (Which is really fucking dumb and I hope gets patched to be safer.). If he guesses wrong and say uses the high command grab and you duck, or vice versa, that's a full combo punish for us. Now our full combo will do some 40-some % with a potential reset at the end. Shazam's full combo if he hits us does mid 30%s for 1 bar and ends in a hard knockdown that he can really only follow up wiith a semi-ambiguous ji2.
I mean you could just pushblock strings to make Shazam unable to command grab you, but as it stands right now, his strings into command grabs are just 50/50s for both players, with our reward being better than his.

Blockstring into command grab is not a 50 50 or whether youll get grabbed or jump it. Its a 50 50 of whether hes gonna do the grab or not, he will do safe from that range psycho crushers all day long until you respect it. hes already in, chipping you and getting damage if you jump all day long out of blockstrings.

Your punish off of a whiffed command grab is the same damage he gets with his own bnbs if you duck it. I don't think you understand how joker's "resets" work, or better yet, don't work outside of the corner. Which he teleports out. For free.

He can run away better than you, he can get in much better than you. You both can't zone, you both can't pressure all day long. He can keep a lifelead much easier.

6 4 shazam favor. At the highest lvl offline.

 

[Fromundaman]

Wow... You just... wow...

I was laying out all the options I could think of in this matchup as well as what joker can do about them. I was NOT saying all options were good, but I have played this matchup so ridiculously often that I have seen all of these at least once. So thank you very much for assuming I am a scrub and completely missing the point of my post.

Also, the second hit of our F21 is, in fact, an overhead.

That said, when I say crowbar, I mean D2 and j3. Sorry for the confusion. I tend to forget BF3 is a move outside of corner OTG set ups (Which are amazing against Shazam).


You are right, there is no time to lay teeth AND do normals BEFORE he teleports. You can however, put down teeth and wait to see what he does, then react to it in the ways I listed above (assuming you're doing teeth loop and shortening it slightly so that instead of a flower at the end you throw teeth on top of him, although you can also do it by canceling 21 into teeth at the end of a combo). Corner actually limits his options too since he can only teleport through you or block (Before I knew you could actually wait and react to the teleport animation, I would try to read a teleport and jump back 2, which is when I would see wakeup Psycho Crusher mixed in to punish my bad read and if timed right go through teeth, hence why I mentioned it.).
I realize that Shazam's one of the few characters to get out of all of these resets for free, but we can still do ghetto resets against him if we play the matchup differently.

Flower will anti-air him out of his j2, and if that's how he chooses to get around the teeth (Which are there literally just to limit his options), then it sends him down into them for a full combo punish.
Teeth also stop teleports, which I realize people usually don't do random teleports, but they are an option, which teeth will shut down, forcing him to move predictably.
Also, gun does catch Shazam's forward dash and Psycho Crusher (You have to hold it a little bit, because it whiffs in the beginning of the move but hits when he gets close.), which becomes one of his only options if you play this matchup correctly since you should be shutting down pretty much all of his other movement options.

Sure he can NOT do the command grab, but he gets nothing off of that. The string is -4 by itself according to the game's frame data (Probably worst considering I just tested in training and Joker can hit him with D1 before he can block.) and of the other things he can cancel into, only backwards teleport is safe, and that doesn't really do much for him.

Oh, and he doesn't get as much off of a grab as we do off of punishing it unless he has trait up or spends more meter. One bar, no trait midscreen combos with Shazam off of a command grab aren't breaking 40%.

Finally, why do you say neither of us can keep pressure on each other? We have positive blockstrings, teeth cancels, etc. We can keep pressure on him for quite a while. We definitely pressure him better than he does us, and most importantly we are way way better in this matchup at mid range than he is. At mid range we can shut down almost every answer, something he can't do to us at any range.
Really the only thing I see him doing better than us is laming us out with a life lead.


Admittedly, while I do play against a good Shazam player, I will admit it isn't a top, AKA tournament winning Shazam. That said, the guy has a solid grasp on the character and I am able to see how his tools work.

 

[Qwark28]

im not going to write a whole wall just because you still dont understand what im saying but ill say these

if youre forced to jump around backwards in the corner and drop what setups you could possibly have then that option alone is a major problem, whether its used or not, its something you worry about.

b2 and 22 psycho crusher are safe, no shazam will ever do 22 alone and it is -9, not -4

his setups force you to wakeup or not, which doesnt give you any considerable damage. his forward dash will not be punished by gunshot when youre recovering from it.

+1 and +5 is not pressure when you can backdash for free and joker cant do shit. 8% gunshot and if you read it wrong youre fucked. shazam can poke for free and get in easier while putting you in safe 50 50s and occasionally going for a grab while not being as readable as a 5 page book.

the fact that you have to play this matchup that differently means its 6 4 shazam. you cant zone, cant keep the lead for long and you chase it worse than him while not escaping setups for free.

also, whiffed command grab 11 mb rlg punish is exactly the damage hed get if he landed the grab

and if i wanted to call you a scrub id say that youre theory fighting, i wouldnt reply to every point of your post with different scenarios and what a non gimmicky shazam player would go for.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Is d2 fast enough? If so, awesome- you should be able to cancel into MB RLG for a combo or teeth for a tech-roll-out-able setup. I generally have been using parry or b1 (same frames I believe, so it goes to whoever get's the frames best).

 

[Gilbagz]

Hey guys was testing out a lot of shit in the lab today
Here is quick summary of my findings
- Found an optimised version of the background bounce combo. Only does 2% over the standard version, but does build more meter.
- Set up wise: I've done some more testing with my set up and have found that it is in fact a safe jump. Batman cannot wake up slide out of the j2 variation (in the video i was using meaty j3). Batman literally has to guess the tech roll. If he wakes up you can always block and punish. If he doesn't, he's forced to try and block the hard to blockable (which isn't actually that hard to block. If you mess it up its like blocking a doomsday earth shake. If you are on point, its a just frame block, but isnt too bad if you know the timing on the teeth [which after doing this combo so much I know to the frame now lol]. Even if people do get consistent blocking it, we can always delay the j2 slightly more and catch them with that for a standard j2 3,2 ex rlg combo)
- I tested out more of the cast. Black Adam and Green Lantern cannot wake up either. There are timings for both which force their wake ups to whiff, granting you the free jump in.
- For black adam the mix up becomes safe jump unblockable, where if they wake up cage you can block. Although it some what ends your momentum. Or you can instead time a neutral jump to whiff punish a wake up cage. The timing is rather strict but you can learn it. If he doesn't wake up cage, your meaty teeth force him into block stun so he can't anti air your neutral jump 2. The risk reward is heavily in our favour. The match up still sucks since getting that initial hit is still a bitch. But if we touch him once, the risk reward is heavily skewed in our favour. If he tech rolls, the same rules apply, you can safe jump unblockable or empty jump neutral jump to punish his wake up cage.
- For green lantern, once you learn the timing. If he does not tech roll he is fucked. He is forced to to try block the hard to blockable. If he wakes up, the teeth launch him and his wake up whiffs because of the timing on the j2. Although the teeth are slightly more delayed, he still cannot backdash out. If he does not tech roll he is forced to try and block the unblockable. He CANNOT wake up. If he tech rolls, you have to play the standard game of empty jump/unblockable. Although you are safe even if he does wake up cuz the teeth will him out of his lift.
- Superman faces similar issues but if you force him onto low scoop. The safe jump window (if there is one) is a lot tighter. All his other wake up options can be safe jumped or blown up completely by delayed teeth.

The main difference is the timing on the teeth in these cases. The teeth will still stop the backdash (may possibly be able to jump out based on the speed of jumps) and will hit after the invincibility frames to stop the wake ups.
In most cases you are safe since even if you mistime the j2, the teeth will interrupt the wake up and stop any damage.

Batman in particular is royally fucked. If you hit him once, he literally has to guess on the tech roll. He cannot even wake up. Even if he guesses correctly on the tech roll, he still needs to give up a ji2, since it will be a safe jump. (if you time the teeth too late it won't be though). In this case, mildly late teeth are still enough. You can use the standard 'unblockable' with a cross over j2 and it will always safe jump. If he tech rolls, you need to throw an earlier set of teeth to stop the escape. The sychro j2 will be a safe jump to his slide.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Hey guys was testing out a lot of shit in the lab today
Here is quick summary of my findings
- Found an optimised version of the background bounce combo. Only does 2% over the standard version, but does build more meter.
- Set up wise: I've done some more testing with my set up and have found that it is in fact a safe jump. Batman cannot wake up slide out of the j2 variation (in the video i was using meaty j3). Batman literally has to guess the tech roll. If he wakes up you can always block and punish. If he doesn't, he's forced to try and block the hard to blockable (which isn't actually that hard to block. If you mess it up its like blocking a doomsday earth shake. If you are on point, its a just frame block, but isnt too bad if you know the timing on the teeth [which after doing this combo so much I know to the frame now lol]. Even if people do get consistent blocking it, we can always delay the j2 slightly more and catch them with that for a standard j2 3,2 ex rlg combo)
- I tested out more of the cast. Black Adam and Green Lantern cannot wake up either. There are timings for both which force their wake ups to whiff, granting you the free jump in.
- For black adam the mix up becomes safe jump unblockable, where if they wake up cage you can block. Although it some what ends your momentum. Or you can instead time a neutral jump to whiff punish a wake up cage. The timing is rather strict but you can learn it. If he doesn't wake up cage, your meaty teeth force him into block stun so he can't anti air your neutral jump 2. The risk reward is heavily in our favour. The match up still sucks since getting that initial hit is still a bitch. But if we touch him once, the risk reward is heavily skewed in our favour. If he tech rolls, the same rules apply, you can safe jump unblockable or empty jump neutral jump to punish his wake up cage.
- For green lantern, once you learn the timing. If he does not tech roll he is fucked. He is forced to to try block the hard to blockable. If he wakes up, the teeth launch him and his wake up whiffs because of the timing on the j2. Although the teeth are slightly more delayed, he still cannot backdash out. If he does not tech roll he is forced to try and block the unblockable. He CANNOT wake up. If he tech rolls, you have to play the standard game of empty jump/unblockable. Although you are safe even if he does wake up cuz the teeth will him out of his lift.
- Superman faces similar issues but if you force him onto low scoop. The safe jump window (if there is one) is a lot tighter. All his other wake up options can be safe jumped or blown up completely by delayed teeth.

The main difference is the timing on the teeth in these cases. The teeth will still stop the backdash (may possibly be able to jump out based on the speed of jumps) and will hit after the invincibility frames to stop the wake ups.
In most cases you are safe since even if you mistime the j2, the teeth will interrupt the wake up and stop any damage.

Batman in particular is royally fucked. If you hit him once, he literally has to guess on the tech roll. He cannot even wake up. Even if he guesses correctly on the tech roll, he still needs to give up a ji2, since it will be a safe jump. (if you time the teeth too late it won't be though). In this case, mildly late teeth are still enough. You can use the standard 'unblockable' with a cross over j2 and it will always safe jump. If he tech rolls, you need to throw an earlier set of teeth to stop the escape. The sychro j2 will be a safe jump to his slide.

Are you sure on Batman? I play that matchup a ton and he always seems to slide out without ji2 catching him due to the invincible frames. Also, you can't neutral jump BA if he techrolls due to spacing right? He is another one where the insane invincibility frame of lightning cage keeps him safe for the most part. Supes tend to use the rising grab on wakeup, which gets him out, doomsday venom gets them out, even bane has that rising jump thing, as well as others. Make you have to sit back an block, with some of these being punishable and some not, basically ruining the setup =(. If things are punishable, it's fine because you get them right back into it, but if not, it puts us back in the neutral game, which is not where Joker excels... but maybe you are timing it differently than me.
Also, what are the inputs on the bounce combo?

 

[Gilbagz]

Are you sure on Batman? I play that matchup a ton and he always seems to slide out without ji2 catching him due to the invincible frames. Also, you can't neutral jump BA if he techrolls due to spacing right? He is another one where the insane invincibility frame of lightning cage keeps him safe for the most part. Supes tend to use the rising grab on wakeup, which gets him out, doomsday venom gets them out, even bane has that rising jump thing, as well as others. Make you have to sit back an block, with some of these being punishable and some not, basically ruining the setup =(. If things are punishable, it's fine because you get them right back into it, but if not, it puts us back in the neutral game, which is not where Joker excels... but maybe you are timing it differently than me.
Also, what are the inputs on the bounce combo?

I'm sure with batman. If the timing is on he cannot wake up slide out. I'm training myself to always hold block after ji2 to block if the slide comes out, and then confirm the launch into b3, or otherwise punish the slide. I am 95% certain it is a safe jump. Was drilling it all day today, I was blocking it everytime. If the wake up didnt come out, they are hit by the unblockable.
With Black Adam, you can still dodge it by neutral jumping. I tested it early on so my memory is slightly fuzzy but I do remember neutral jumping it. I'll test it again tomorrow to make sure. iirc, it was easier to neutral jump the tech roll over the non-tech roll version. You do have to get the teeth out at the earliest frame to make sure there is time to neutral jump though.
Didn't test dooms day out, or bane. But bane's uppercut is rather slow so we should be able to safe jump it.
With supes, the rising grab can be safe jumped flat out. It is too slow and you can block and punish it.
The safe jump helps a tonne with a lot of match ups. But we still have issues getting that initial hit.

The bounce combo is nothing special. Its opener into ex rlg b3 d2 far teeth j2 far teeth 2,1 (both hits) background bounce
The 2,1 sends them into the teeth which pops them up for the background bounce kick
It only does 2% extra damage but does build more meter
The standard variation is opener ex rlg b3 j2 3 background bounce correct?
After testing this set up today a bit. It is slightly more unreliable because the teeth come out later and you have less time to hit the cross over hard to block j2. But it is still doable, although a lot of the safe jumps no longer work because the jump comes out too late and coincides with their first wake up frames, e.g. batman slide will trade instead of being blocked. The hard knockdown helps a lot though.

 

[Qwark28]

Hey guys was testing out a lot of shit in the lab today
Here is quick summary of my findings
- Found an optimised version of the background bounce combo. Only does 2% over the standard version, but does build more meter.
- Set up wise: I've done some more testing with my set up and have found that it is in fact a safe jump. Batman cannot wake up slide out of the j2 variation (in the video i was using meaty j3). Batman literally has to guess the tech roll. If he wakes up you can always block and punish. If he doesn't, he's forced to try and block the hard to blockable (which isn't actually that hard to block. If you mess it up its like blocking a doomsday earth shake. If you are on point, its a just frame block, but isnt too bad if you know the timing on the teeth [which after doing this combo so much I know to the frame now lol]. Even if people do get consistent blocking it, we can always delay the j2 slightly more and catch them with that for a standard j2 3,2 ex rlg combo)
- I tested out more of the cast. Black Adam and Green Lantern cannot wake up either. There are timings for both which force their wake ups to whiff, granting you the free jump in.
- For black adam the mix up becomes safe jump unblockable, where if they wake up cage you can block. Although it some what ends your momentum. Or you can instead time a neutral jump to whiff punish a wake up cage. The timing is rather strict but you can learn it. If he doesn't wake up cage, your meaty teeth force him into block stun so he can't anti air your neutral jump 2. The risk reward is heavily in our favour. The match up still sucks since getting that initial hit is still a bitch. But if we touch him once, the risk reward is heavily skewed in our favour. If he tech rolls, the same rules apply, you can safe jump unblockable or empty jump neutral jump to punish his wake up cage.
- For green lantern, once you learn the timing. If he does not tech roll he is fucked. He is forced to to try block the hard to blockable. If he wakes up, the teeth launch him and his wake up whiffs because of the timing on the j2. Although the teeth are slightly more delayed, he still cannot backdash out. If he does not tech roll he is forced to try and block the unblockable. He CANNOT wake up. If he tech rolls, you have to play the standard game of empty jump/unblockable. Although you are safe even if he does wake up cuz the teeth will him out of his lift.
- Superman faces similar issues but if you force him onto low scoop. The safe jump window (if there is one) is a lot tighter. All his other wake up options can be safe jumped or blown up completely by delayed teeth.

The main difference is the timing on the teeth in these cases. The teeth will still stop the backdash (may possibly be able to jump out based on the speed of jumps) and will hit after the invincibility frames to stop the wake ups.
In most cases you are safe since even if you mistime the j2, the teeth will interrupt the wake up and stop any damage.

Batman in particular is royally fucked. If you hit him once, he literally has to guess on the tech roll. He cannot even wake up. Even if he guesses correctly on the tech roll, he still needs to give up a ji2, since it will be a safe jump. (if you time the teeth too late it won't be though). In this case, mildly late teeth are still enough. You can use the standard 'unblockable' with a cross over j2 and it will always safe jump. If he tech rolls, you need to throw an earlier set of teeth to stop the escape. The sychro j2 will be a safe jump to his slide.

which setup are you talking about? can you break it down?

 

[Fromundaman]

Sorry, you're right, I hadn't understood what you meant before. Thanks for clarifying and sorry for getting defensive.

B2 is safe by itself btw? I didn't know that. I'm going to have to tell the Shazam player to take advantage of that.

Still not sure I agree with 6-4 simply because escaping our pressure strings through backdashing puts him in mid range where D2 shuts down a LOT of his options (And D3 sometimes catches backdash, but honestly we don't get much off of that in this MU), but TBH as Joker players I feel we have to play every single matchup differently, so I don't really see that as a big fault.

IDK though. What would you put characters like GA/Batgirl/DD/CW at then? To me those (And arguably KF and Superman) feel more solidly like a 6-4 and Shazam feels considerably easier than those.

 

[Qwark28]

gonna upload some sweep setups later, found a very interesting property and it involves midscreen ridiculously ambiguous crossups that avoid wakeups and it can be done off of any sweep in any combo or not

also some new corner setups and char specific setups

 

[Qwark28]

just expanded on the corner setup, turns out its only escapable by a backdash

no pushblock
no blocking
no wakeups
no armour
no rolls

the problem joker had in the corner with his guaranteed setups was that they werent guaranteed vs multi hitting wakeups, just found a way to beat those, at least vs flash

now testing nightwing and the rest

edit: works vs nightwing too

 

[Fromundaman]

just expanded on the corner setup, turns out its only escapable by a backdash

no pushblock
no blocking
no wakeups
no armour
no rolls

the problem joker had in the corner with his guaranteed setups was that they werent guaranteed vs multi hitting wakeups, just found a way to beat those, at least vs flash

now testing nightwing and the rest

edit: works vs nightwing too

If you're talking about the teeth/meterburn F3 set ups, you can jump out of those as well.
Does your new set up stop that, because that's an option I've been trying to shut down and failing miserably.

 

[Qwark28]

If you're talking about the teeth/meterburn F3 set ups, you can jump out of those as well.
Does your new set up stop that, because that's an option I've been trying to shut down and failing miserably.

you cant jump out of certain teeth and f3 setups in the corner and midscreen

midscreen when i first started finding stuff for joker after finding lots of shit for BA i found this setup and its probably burried somewehre in the general discussion thread

the only ways to escape bnb into b3 far teeth step forward mb f3 is either a multi hit wakeup or a perfectly timed roll into backdash

chars like gl were fucke and it took extreme practicing to escape those setups and it was still baitable

 

[StevoSuprem0]

gonna upload some sweep setups later, found a very interesting property and it involves midscreen ridiculously ambiguous crossups that avoid wakeups and it can be done off of any sweep in any combo or not

also some new corner setups and char specific setups

Sounds solid. I'm not a fan of the stance-dependent "ambiguous" crossups though. Is it one of those, or based on timing of the jump like the other one you and I came up with? Gil and I are talking about the teeth setup out of the BnB- his is in my teeth setup thread as well. I added it to the OP, last video I think.

I'm sure with batman. If the timing is on he cannot wake up slide out. I'm training myself to always hold block after ji2 to block if the slide comes out, and then confirm the launch into b3, or otherwise punish the slide. I am 95% certain it is a safe jump. Was drilling it all day today, I was blocking it everytime. If the wake up didnt come out, they are hit by the unblockable.
With Black Adam, you can still dodge it by neutral jumping. I tested it early on so my memory is slightly fuzzy but I do remember neutral jumping it. I'll test it again tomorrow to make sure. iirc, it was easier to neutral jump the tech roll over the non-tech roll version. You do have to get the teeth out at the earliest frame to make sure there is time to neutral jump though.
Didn't test dooms day out, or bane. But bane's uppercut is rather slow so we should be able to safe jump it.
With supes, the rising grab can be safe jumped flat out. It is too slow and you can block and punish it.
The safe jump helps a tonne with a lot of match ups. But we still have issues getting that initial hit.

The bounce combo is nothing special. Its opener into ex rlg b3 d2 far teeth j2 far teeth 2,1 (both hits) background bounce
The 2,1 sends them into the teeth which pops them up for the background bounce kick
It only does 2% extra damage but does build more meter
The standard variation is opener ex rlg b3 j2 3 background bounce correct?
After testing this set up today a bit. It is slightly more unreliable because the teeth come out later and you have less time to hit the cross over hard to block j2. But it is still doable, although a lot of the safe jumps no longer work because the jump comes out too late and coincides with their first wake up frames, e.g. batman slide will trade instead of being blocked. The hard knockdown helps a lot though.

I was a bit confused before- realize now that you mean the setup is safe in that you can block before the wakeup hits you, not that you always hit them to stop the wakeup, correct? Training yourself to block in these situations is huge because you can still confirm into a b3, like you said. Solid tip, gotta remember that.

 

[Gilbagz]

which setup are you talking about? can you break it down?

Currently on my phone
I'll post a full write up when i get to a computer.
Essentially it comes down to the timing on the teeth. It is character specific. I'll post full details in about an hour.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

you cant jump out of certain teeth and f3 setups in the corner and midscreen

midscreen when i first started finding stuff for joker after finding lots of shit for BA i found this setup and its probably burried somewehre in the general discussion thread

the only ways to escape bnb into b3 far teeth step forward mb f3 is either a multi hit wakeup or a perfectly timed roll into backdash

chars like gl were fucke and it took extreme practicing to escape those setups and it was still baitable

Yeah, depending on what you cancel into teeth to start the setup, they can't always jump out. I believe 212 into teeth then MB f3, for instance, can be jumped out of in the corner, while 32 xx teeth (after one hit, and maybe for two as well) into MB f3 cannot be jumped out of. I'm not 100% on that, but from what I remember from the frames, it should be the case.

 

[Qwark28]

it is truly almost unblockable. can only backdash, cannot wakeup or do anything else.

 

[Gilbagz]

Sounds solid. I'm not a fan of the stance-dependent "ambiguous" crossups though. Is it one of those, or based on timing of the jump like the other one you and I came up with? Gil and I are talking about the teeth setup out of the BnB- his is in my teeth setup thread as well. I added it to the OP, last video I think.

I was a bit confused before- realize now that you mean the setup is safe in that you can block before the wakeup hits you, not that you always hit them to stop the wakeup, correct? Training yourself to block in these situations is huge because you can still confirm into a b3, like you said. Solid tip, gotta remember that.

Yeah thats basically how it works. If they wake up the j2 whiffs cuz of the in invincibility frames but you can block in time. If he doesnt wake up the j2 connects and gives the unblockable.
Guaranteed safe jump against at least 16f wake ups. Possibly some faster ones.


For characters with faster wake ups, we can adjust the timing on teeth to hit post invincibility frames. You need to learn the timings but they are charac specific for the wake ups. So far i've developed timings for gl, ba, supes and batman.
I tested out nightwing but couldnt find anything solid for staff stance.
The main issue is characters with safe wake ups.
We need options to blow up safe wake ups otherwise they can wake up out of the set up everytime.
So far it comes down to delayed teeth to blow up the wake up, but then its harder to set up the unblockable at the same time.

Edit: just checked frame data. Rising grab is 11f and low scoop is 16f. But yet i could safe jump batman 16f slide and the rising grab, but not low scoop reliably. Im going to test this out more. I think i was delaying the teeth too much, cuz i was using the teeth timing to blow up wake up breath

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah thats basically how it works. If they wake up the j2 whiffs cuz of the in invincibility frames but you can block in time. If he doesnt wake up the j2 connects and gives the unblockable.
Guaranteed safe jump against at least 16f wake ups. Possibly some faster ones.


For characters with faster wake ups, we can adjust the timing on teeth to hit post invincibility frames. You need to learn the timings but they are charac specific for the wake ups. So far i've developed timings for gl, ba, supes and batman.
I tested out nightwing but couldnt find anything solid for staff stance.
The main issue is characters with safe wake ups.
We need options to blow up safe wake ups otherwise they can wake up out of the set up everytime.
So far it comes down to delayed teeth to blow up the wake up, but then its harder to set up the unblockable at the same time.

Edit: just checked frame data. Rising grab is 11f and low scoop is 16f. But yet i could safe jump batman 16f slide and the rising grab, but not low scoop reliably. Im going to test this out more. I think i was delaying the teeth too much, cuz i was using the teeth timing to blow up wake up breath

I hate breath. So often have I been on the other side of Supe players in the air and gotten hit by a glitch ass breath going the other direction. But yeah, anyways, alot of options with these setups, we just have to figure out timings for each wakeup situation with and without techrolls.

 

[Gilbagz]

which setup are you talking about? can you break it down?

Alright finally got to a computer
I'll just give a brief breakdown
The current bnb: opener ex rlg b3 d2 far teeth j2; currently gives the most time to set up because the j2 teeth launches them back up

From here we can time the teeth to our discretion. The timings are match up specific but in most cases it causes their wake ups to be completely voided.

Just a few examples
Batman
In the case of batman, it becomes a true 50/50. If he does not tech roll he eats the unblockable. If we time a slightly delayed teeth and synchronise our j2, we get the unblockable. If he attempts to wake up, the j2 whiffs and we can block and punish. If he techrolls, and we throw an instant set of far teeth (buffered during the j2), we can meaty j3. This j3 is also a safe jump and will lead to the same scenario.
Batman has to guess on the techroll, if he guesses incorrectly he gets reset into the same situation. It is basically a vortex until he guesses correctly on the tech roll.
Black Adam
With Black Adam's wake up being safe, it is slightly more difficult and the timing is a lot more strict. But in general we can still safe jump his wake up cage with the batman timings. However, if we block the cage our momentum ends. To bait and punish the cage, we ommit the j2 and empty jump, take a single step back and then neutral jump. If you time the teeth correctly, your neutral jump will cause the cage to whiff and let you punish it. If he does not wake up, the teeth hit meaty and force him into block stun, preventing him from anti airing you and give you a j2 into 2,1,2 'mix ups.' I say 'mix ups' because as you have said, while 2,1,2 teeth is safe, it is risky on our part.
If he presses forward we do have the push block set up, and once he respects that we can continue pressure, but if he scouts this he can punish us hard. Since the teeth are there, the most viable options are insta j2 to air to air, jump away or back dash. With the latter two options being punished with j3/gun shot. Risky though cuz his punish is so much more than ours.
If he tech rolls, the same situation applies.
the risk reward is in our favour in both cases though.

We can also use a very delayed set of teeth to hit past the wake up invincibility frames. But it opens up alot of variables because we can no longer safe jump and we will always trade with wake up cage.

Some other stuff. In the corner black adam has literally no options. Any knockdown is death because we can time a meaty b1,3 which hops over the lightining and resets the situation. Black Adam is reset infinitely until the joker player messes up. Could possibly wake up lightning hands, but the teeth will launch him to reset the situation. Until the Joker player messes up, Black Adam is stuck in the corner eating unblockables.
Green Lantern
You time a very delayed teeth and then time a synchro j2 that causes the wake lift to whiff. If he wake ups, the j2 whiffs but the teeth launch him. If he doesnt wake up he eats the unblockable, he can try to back dash but the teeth will still launch him. He could possibly jump out, but i'm fairly certain the j2 covers this option. If green lantern does not tech roll he is forced to eat damage.
If he tech rolls, you need to play the standard mix up of empty jump/unblockable. The early teeth will always interrupt his lift if he guess correctly so the risk reward is in our favour regardless.
Superman
You probably get the idea so im going to keep this one brief.
- With the batman timing, we can safe jump the rising grab (and possibly the low scoop. Need to test this one out again. I think I mistiming it yesterday). If he wakes up breath though, he ends our pressure and begins his. We can blow this up with a neutral jump similar to black adam. We can also delay a set of teeth to hit past the invincibility frames. This timing will also blow up wake up superman punch but he is so far back that we can't get a b3 to reset the situation.
Didnt test the tech roll, but it should function similarly with the j3. I'll test it out more today if i get time.