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Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

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LEGEND

YES!
Why does Donald Duck wear only a shirt, leaving his lower region exposed, only to wrap a towel around his waist after taking a shower? Life is full of unanswered questions, and mysterious charades of grandeur, but I know that as long as we remain within the distance to make Walking Corpse obsolete, we just might make it out alive from this wonderous adventure we call life.


Join me, Konqrr. For I cannot venture forth alone.
moves that make walking corpse wiff aren't a full proof solution it, Grundy can cancel the WC into another WC, D2-trait or armored trait to blow you up for it (options depend on the move, i don't know the specifics of KF's B23)
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
moves that make walking corpse wiff aren't a full proof solution it, Grundy can cancel the WC into another WC, D2-trait or armored trait to blow you up for it (options depend on the move, i don't know the specifics of KF's B23)
I understand, however like I mentioned, it not only makes the move whiff, but punishes the recovery and sends Grundy full screen. This is an important factor that would make a Grundy player reconsider using Walking Corpse raw all the time. This also isn't assuming that my intent is to just b23 towards Grundy repeatedly and obviously- the move WC CAN be cancelled....but into what? Every viable option outside of another WC gets blown up by MB parry. Hell, Grundy's wake up in general can be blown up by parry. And a lot of people overlook the simple act of jumping over the corpse and punishing it due to its recovery. Doing so more than once will cause the opponent to cancel it into d2 right? Parry. It isn't a be all end all to the Grundy MU, but it doesn't make the MU in his favor as others had insinuated. If you're slide happy, sure, you'll get blown up. But most, if not all I'm proclaiming comes from extensive Grundy experience with high level Grundy's of various playstyles.

He has yet to kill me dead.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I understand, however like I mentioned, it not only makes the move whiff, but punishes the recovery and sends Grundy full screen. This is an important factor that would make a Grundy player reconsider using Walking Corpse raw all the time. This also isn't assuming that my intent is to just b23 towards Grundy repeatedly and obviously- the move WC CAN be cancelled....but into what? Every viable option outside of another WC gets blown up by MB parry. Hell, Grundy's wake up in general can be blown up by parry. And a lot of people overlook the simple act of jumping over the corpse and punishing it due to its recovery. Doing so more than once will cause the opponent to cancel it into d2 right? Parry. It isn't a be all end all to the Grundy MU, but it doesn't make the MU in his favor as others had insinuated. If you're slide happy, sure, you'll get blown up. But most, if not all I'm proclaiming comes from extensive Grundy experience with high level Grundy's of various playstyles.

He has yet to kill me dead.
You make it so cut and dry

You have to parry on a read... which I can also punish by simply laughing at you while i wait for it to recover.

Grundy is NEVER going to reconsider using WC..... it is too good and it crushes too many of KF's weak ass moves.

I mean I can say the same things here..... because you can't parry anything after a block string.

It is totally easy for you to sit here and say "i can just parry that shit"..... but if I'm making you think about parrying everything.... i'll just f1,3 for 50% and that'll be that.

This is an easy 5-5
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
You make it so cut and dry

You have to parry on a read... which I can also punish by simply laughing at you while i wait for it to recover.

Grundy is NEVER going to reconsider using WC..... it is too good and it crushes too many of KF's weak ass moves.

I mean I can say the same things here..... because you can't parry anything after a block string.

It is totally easy for you to sit here and say "i can just parry that shit"..... but if I'm making you think about parrying everything.... i'll just f1,3 for 50% and that'll be that.

This is an easy 5-5
Well sir, you have made good points but I strongly disagree with the MU numbers based on my experience. Perhaps we must play each other?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Well sir, you have made good points but I strongly disagree with the MU numbers based on my experience. Perhaps we must play each other?
well i mean

I said its 5-5... but i've always been in the camp that the MU was in Grundy's favor.

Then I read what you said, ignored Ribzz totally stupid answers (seriously... my jump sucks?), and figured... if two parties think it is in THEIR favor, then the MU is probably more even.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
well i mean

I said its 5-5... but i've always been in the camp that the MU was in Grundy's favor.

Then I read what you said, ignored Ribzz totally stupid answers (seriously... my jump sucks?), and figured... if two parties think it is in THEIR favor, then the MU is probably more even.
Wait a minute, you think it's in GRUNDY'S favor?!?

Sir, with all due respect, I am now under the impression that you are just another man to punish.
Are you sure these are conclusions drawn from experience and not theory crafting? Tell me, what are your thoughts on the Grundy WW MU, if you don't mind...
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Wait a minute, you think it's in GRUNDY'S favor?!?

Sir, with all due respect, I am now under the impression that you are just another man to punish.
Are you sure these are conclusions drawn from experience and not theory crafting? Tell me, what are your thoughts on the Grundy WW MU, if you don't mind...
Of course I do

I can approach frost at any point, i don't have to worry about her breaking armor, and I know nothing she does will go "through" Grundy.

She can't really parry any tick throw attempts without having to take into account WC (if you parry thinking i'll trait, WC will catch you in recovery).

And of course, if i knock you down, I have a very large chance of simply taking your life bar.... just like you do Grundy in your vortex.
The difference being, my oki leads to 50% AT THE LEAST (70% max with background bounce).... whereas you get about 28%.

So i have to make half the oki reads that you do.

But again, the more I thought about it, and listened to you guys, I noticed that you do have tools to make me hesitate or think, and sometimes that is enough.
 

haketh

Noob
No way in hell is the MU in Grundy's favor, and Grundy's jump being the way it is is bad for him in this MU due to KF's AA options. Having options to deal with WC is very important and I don't think being able to cancel it is really going to help against B23. Yeah were at -3 after it but it's no big deal when you're fastest normal is 8 frames and -12 and we have a pretty legit backdash.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Of course I do

I can approach frost at any point, i don't have to worry about her breaking armor, and I know nothing she does will go "through" Grundy.

She can't really parry any tick throw attempts without having to take into account WC (if you parry thinking i'll trait, WC will catch you in recovery).

And of course, if i knock you down, I have a very large chance of simply taking your life bar.... just like you do Grundy in your vortex.
The difference being, my oki leads to 50% AT THE LEAST (70% max with background bounce).... whereas you get about 28%.

So i have to make half the oki reads that you do.

But again, the more I thought about it, and listened to you guys, I noticed that you do have tools to make me hesitate or think, and sometimes that is enough.
Well sir, it seems the more we go on about each other's strengths the more we seem to emit to ourselves, whether we care to admit it or not, signs of the MU being even. When both parties are absolutely convinced a MU is in their favor and state why, it is more likely then not to be an even match up, sometimes based on little nuances that can make the matches go either way.

After all, a wise man once said: "When both parties are absolutely convinced a MU is in their favor and state why, it is more likely then not to be an even match up, sometimes based on little nuances that can make the matches go either way."
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Well sir, it seems the more we go on about each other's strengths the more we seem to emit to ourselves, whether we care to admit it or not, signs of the MU being even. When both parties are absolutely convinced a MU is in their favor and state why, it is more likely then not to be an even match up, sometimes based on little nuances that can make the matches go either way.

After all, a wise man once said: "When both parties are absolutely convinced a MU is in their favor and state why, it is more likely then not to be an even match up, sometimes based on little nuances that can make the matches go either way."
well said

i'll post my thoughts on WW/Grundy in WW forum btw.

But again.... if the patch any type of movement changes.... or buffs... then all this is null and void anyhow.
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
Killer Frost beats Grundy beats until the 1st of October where an already bad character will mostly become worse or get nothing
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
moves that make walking corpse wiff aren't a full proof solution it, Grundy can cancel the WC into another WC, D2-trait or armored trait to blow you up for it (options depend on the move, i don't know the specifics of KF's B23)
If you time b2 right, it beats d2 clean and if he doesn't do an attack after WCC, he has to block and b2 is safe. Grundy would have to MB Grab to beat it or do another WC which then the process repeats itself... however that is another level of yomi not discussed right now.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I wouldn't argue 5-5. I still think its 6-4 frost. DEFINITELY not in Grundy's favor tho
I agree.
When he had unclashable trait and reset.... different story.

Honestly, I think its a matter of you're just that good, and no one "mains" Grundy that is on your level of good.

idk. again... it really doesn't matter.


If you time b2 right, it beats d2 clean and if he doesn't do an attack after WCC, he has to block and b2 is safe. Grundy would have to MB Grab to beat it or do another WC which then the process repeats itself... however that is another level of yomi not discussed right now.
I hear alot of "if timed right" and I understand that. But i'll take that chance ya know? Some moves don't need that specific timing to make the WC whiff totally. Some do. I mean... if you hit me with b2.... to me that trade doesn't bother me. It isn't like you're messing up the WCC input, making me whiff, and full comboing.

 

RunwayMafia

Shoot them. Shoot them all.
Same thing Khaotik said. I have it at 7-3 now but who knows in a few weeks when the patch drops. I haven't played a ton the past 3 weeks or so waiting for the patch.
Hmmm...Ok. I guess I can't really argue this point because I've played the same Bane's you mentioned. I mean, she def. beats him, but 7-3? I used to think 7-3 when she could parry his charge, lol. I think he is scary now...I shudder to think how he will be post patch. And lol at your name drop, cute. ;)
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Hmmm...Ok. I guess I can't really argue this point because I've played the same Bane's you mentioned. I mean, she def. beats him, but 7-3? I used to think 7-3 when she could parry his charge, lol. I think he is scary now...I shudder to think how he will be post patch. And lol at your name drop, cute. ;)
Honestly you can punish his charge just the same now but just in a different way. I mean yeah the parry is much easier but when you think about it doing it that way just costs more meter. You can jump behind it and slide for a punish into vortex. Scroll up you peasant and learn how to read lol, I've been saying I have been waiting for the patch for ages. Name drop lmao. :p
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
i think lex might be 5-5. kf is annoying, but zoning is the only real advantage and it's not that bad.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
zz
I hear alot of "if timed right" and I understand that. But i'll take that chance ya know? Some moves don't need that specific timing to make the WC whiff totally. Some do. I mean... if you hit me with b2.... to me that trade doesn't bother me. It isn't like you're messing up the WCC input, making me whiff, and full comboing.
If I hit you with b2 that should bother you because i get 30%+ into vortex. And seriously, how hard is it to "time right" with practice against wcc~d2? I got it down pretty good the other day in practice after a few tries. The timing for it beats both d2 and avoids wc grab.
 
Honestly you can punish his charge just the same now but just in a different way. I mean yeah the parry is much easier but when you think about it doing it that way just costs more meter. You can jump behind it and slide for a punish into vortex. Scroll up you peasant and learn how to read lol, I've been saying I have been waiting for the patch for ages. Name drop lmao. :p
It still matters. Up close, now he can put a lot of pressure on you with Raging Charge's high chip. She used to be able to parry in response to the wind up from that distance, but now she can't, and it can be tough to get over the charge from that angle.
 
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