Doombawkz's Incredibly incorrect patch suggestion thread

[Doombawkz]

If you buff shazam's trait that much you should leave all the other things as it is now or he will be a new superman.

If I leave everything as is and just buff the trait, then he will be incapable of actually using the trait I'd be buffing. You can still block him, he doesn't magically get awesome 50/50 mix-ups and the duration an chip are being reduced so honestly its just allowing Shazams to occasionally work around his lack of damage while giving them the utility to survive in the meantime.

To say he will be superman because his trait will go from 40 frames to 28 frames is a bit extreme, if you ask me. :/

 

[ELC]

I'm thinking +0/+2/+5 for 1/2/3+ scratches. Something to make losing multiple scratches on block less painful

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

-3 is basically -4 :|

Breath is already negative on block, and I don't think people usually use turbine to get in on block. Pretty sure its just for air travel. I made Bane's DP -3 to make it a less thoughtless tool, so my train of thought would probably be the same for similar things.

I don't think she gets to be 7-3 by her MB cat dash becoming safer on block, since the characters who would be losing would still probably be losing since they didn't have an answer for it in the first place. It would bring down her bad MUs while buffing in her mid-MUs a bit.

Her standing 1 has the reach of a sneeze, its really sad. Even still, though, throwing out kicks and it being safe still doesn't make sense to me. I had the same logic with Scorp flip kick in that its a good tool when its meant to be used, but giving it too much will lead to it becoming a random check more than something that needs a read to be fully effective.

She seems really solid, and while I won't deny she has some slow attacks not all of her attacks are that way. The woman has dive kicks, teleports, projectiles, reversed inputs, standing resets... She really seems like a character who doesn't need much of anything else.

No, 1 frame less is sexier :c

Mace Charge is also negative on block

Why not? Well.. First of all please tell me how much would you like Cat Dash & MB Cat dash to be on block? Cat dash is like -9 or -10. The MB version is like -5 that is pretty legit

Her teleports are so punisheable, sometimes even if you MB them a lot of characters can punish them,her dive kick the same, it's like -20 on block, & you must also MB it to be safe. She needs meter for EVERYTHING literally. I think that making Multi kicks safewithout having to MB it on block is legit wince ot's her only real starter.

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm thinking +0/+2/+5 for 1/2/3+ scratches. Something to make losing multiple scratches on block less painful

So +5 is the flat value for every scratch beyond 3?
That sounds reasonable, I suppose.

 

[SaJa]

If I leave everything as is and just buff the trait, then he will be incapable of actually using the trait I'd be buffing. You can still block him, he doesn't magically get awesome 50/50 mix-ups and the duration an chip are being reduced so honestly its just allowing Shazams to occasionally work around his lack of damage while giving them the utility to survive in the meantime.

To say he will be superman because his trait will go from 40 frames to 28 frames is a bit extreme, if you ask me. :/

Shazam isn't that bad. He just needs something more consistent vs zoning and better footsy play to be viable.

Buff b2 (faster), buff his projectile speed when his trait is active and he would be fine imo.

If you buff everything whereas he isn't that bad, + his trait which can make 45% with 5 hits would make him insanely good.

He doesn't have superman's mixup in corner, but his damages are higher.

The transition just give +4%.

don't forget why people are complaining about flash (his 60% combo). shazam would be even worse ^^

 

[Nonameformedude]

The DP change is only on block, it has the same recovery when whiffed. As far as ring toss goes, it gives no advantage and it puts you half screen so as far as optimizing goes Body Press is a better ender which leads in. Ring toss is for like huge damage only, and I want to make it so that it has a use.

So, in summary, how do you think you could fix Grundy's biggest problems without making him basically a huge mugger in the corner? He does huge damage, and the swamp hands Mb can also help against characters who try to IAFB since you'll pop them out of the sky for it, something that (to my knowledge) Grundy has some serious trouble with. As the OP says I am prone to overlook some things so if you have genuine ideas to improve my list I'm all for them. As long as they make sense as a whole I'm certainly not objected to changing it to fit your opinion. I gave the stuff that, at a glance of the sub forums, seemed to blanket the needs moreso than the luxuries, but to say this list is end-all accurate would be far from correct. I want to encourage intellectual discussion over what characters truly need so hopefully people will stop making these lists.

Ayee, if the recovery on whiff is the same then I completely agree with that. Body press is a better ender when you still have the option to trait/you are only going on level 1 debuff. If you are going into level 2 or higher debuff you need to use meter to body press them away and take up time, where ring toss has a better tie to distance ratio for no meter use. As far as a general ender goes, body press is obviously the greater choice ahah but I guess thats what you mean when you say niche about ring toss. Yeah, tbh I only use it when I know a person is going to jump to avoid a body press on wake up

TBH he doesnt really need much to be able to compete quite well. B13 should be a string on block, as slow as b1 is Grundy shouldnt be punished for using a string. B1, trait isnt even a tick throw so it doesnt make sense that it doesnt even come out(Also DD high low, and Aquaman overhead into scoop low are both faster but fine so why is grundy not allowed this mix up). The WCC input needs a little work, or at the very least make it so that if I immediately do the input for the cancel and they jump over me the cancel still happens. Some want a buff to the diagonal/horizontal hit box of d2, which I dont think you need because his air grab covers what d2 doesn't(maybe slightly change the hurtbox so he doesnt stick his head above his anti air). MAINLY HIS TRAIT SHOULD NOT BE PARRY-ABLE, that I cannot stress enough. Bonus points if all that could be done, and his jump was like black adams, that would be godlike

 

[Doombawkz]

No, 1 frame less is sexier :c

Mace Charge is also negative on block

Why not? Well.. First of all please tell me how much would you like Cat Dash & MB Cat dash to be on block? Cat dash is like -9 or -10. The MB version is like -5 that is pretty legit

Her teleports are so punisheable, sometimes even if you MB them a lot of characters can punish them,her dive kick the same, it's like -20 on block, & you must also MB it to be safe. She needs meter for EVERYTHING literally. I think that making Multi kicks safewithout having to MB it on block is legit wince ot's her only real starter.

Nothing about Hawkgirl is sexy until she loses that mask.

Yes but its only -4 and it has enough pushback to prevent most people from doing anything about it while she whips out another one. Also leads to 18% unclashable on hit sooo yeah. Make her land closer so people can maybe check her before she inputs the next, but not close enough as to where she's stuck in their face entirely. Close enough to think, not enough to feel.

Cat dash normal keeps its -10. That's unsafe and it should be. the MB catdash I want to be around maybe -4 or -3, fast enough where she can start pressure against the folks who basically boot her back out otherwise.

She gets huge meter gain though. I never said I wanted her meter gain from trait to change So the meter cost is one of those things to work around, no character should get everything free. I feel like keeping her multi-kicks unsafe on block keeps them in check as a combo tool and something to use when you know it'll work moreso than when you think they might do something.

 

[ELC]

So +5 is the flat value for every scratch beyond 3?
That sounds reasonable, I suppose.

Yeah. Reason why isthat only the first three hits of trait will occur if blocked.

 

[Tiger Wong]

LOL

LMAO!!

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Nothing about Hawkgirl is sexy until she loses that mask.

Yes but its only -4 and it has enough pushback to prevent most people from doing anything about it while she whips out another one. Also leads to 18% unclashable on hit sooo yeah. Make her land closer so people can maybe check her before she inputs the next, but not close enough as to where she's stuck in their face entirely. Close enough to think, not enough to feel.

Cat dash normal keeps its -10. That's unsafe and it should be. the MB catdash I want to be around maybe -4 or -3, fast enough where she can start pressure against the folks who basically boot her back out otherwise.

She gets huge meter gain though. I never said I wanted her meter gain from trait to change So the meter cost is one of those things to work around, no character should get everything free. I feel like keeping her multi-kicks unsafe on block keeps them in check as a combo tool and something to use when you know it'll work moreso than when you think they might do something.

People van Neutral Jump it, a lot of characters can do a lot of things vs Macecharge, i have a list & almost every character can do anything to dodge/punish. Everyone can MB B3/F3 & neutral jump .

What? Nvm a move that is fast/full screen/armor/gives full combo into a hard knockdown/gives 30% unclashable or more into a hard knockdown/safe/gives pressure ? REALLY? Naw, Catwoman is great, she meeds nothing.

I know, also her meter building is not that good against some characters... Se needs it for everything. C'mon

 

[Doombawkz]

Shazam isn't that bad. He just needs something more consistent vs zoning and better footsy play to be viable.

Buff b2 (faster), buff his projectile speed when his trait is active and he would be fine imo.

If you buff everything whereas he isn't that bad, + his trait which can make 45% with 5 hits would make him insanely good.

He doesn't have superman's mixup in corner, but his damages are higher.

The transition just give +4%.

don't forget why people are complaining about flash (his 60% combo). shazam would be even worse ^^

He gets a slightly better BoZ to bring him in line with someone like Ares. That doesn't mean he is able to zone, and his footsie game isn't where he is strong. He is all about the pressure and rush-down on oki I'd think.

b.2 is fast enough, it needs to be safer for it to be useful. He doesn't need to zone people, and that would defeat the purpose of using him over someone who can do it without trait.

He already gets 40% in 5 hits without trait using j.3 MB HM b.3 j.3 HM, and the lower start-up would simply allow him to pop it after a b.3 in the combo. The duration would let him peel some extra damage and have it ready for the next mix-up but it wouldn't last long enough to do what you expect it to. If Shazam catches you with the trait on or off, you'll still be eating damage. Theres no reason he should be spending a bar and only getting 34% though. With trait on, he would be getting in the area of ~maybe~ 5 or 6% on top of the normal combo (The same combo does 42% without trait, and 51% with). In the corner, you'll be eating absurd damage regardless.

That combo isn't realistic. In fact, my changes would prevent that by cutting down the duration of it.

 

[Nonameformedude]

So, in summary, how do you think you could fix Grundy's biggest problems without making him basically a huge mugger in the corner? He does huge damage, and the swamp hands Mb can also help against characters who try to IAFB since you'll pop them out of the sky for it, something that (to my knowledge) Grundy has some serious trouble with. As the OP says I am prone to overlook some things so if you have genuine ideas to improve my list I'm all for them. As long as they make sense as a whole I'm certainly not objected to changing it to fit your opinion. I gave the stuff that, at a glance of the sub forums, seemed to blanket the needs moreso than the luxuries, but to say this list is end-all accurate would be far from correct. I want to encourage intellectual discussion over what characters truly need so hopefully people will stop making these lists.

Also I forgot outside of actually getting hit and eating hits in WC, grundy has no reliable way to build meter. He NEEDS meter for his resets and for his combos high damage combos. He also needs it for WC set ups. Your opponent can chose to only punish your mistakes and jump(basically)and stop you from gaining meter. Meanwhile you land a single pain chain and you have just given your opponent a full bar. I know there mare many people in the cast who can do 31%, but im pretty sure only grundy gives his opponents a full bar while doing said 31%.(lets take note that its only 25% for a full bar if he d2xx4 for a quick punish). Give him better meter gain and boom, hes a killa...Also now that I think about it they could also make the hit animation for crouching opponents and standing opponents the same on d2. When crouching they bounce lower giving grundy less frames to link than on his normal d2 hit, but thats just an ease of play think and not really a needed buff

 

[Doombawkz]

People van Neutral Jump it, a lot of characters can do a lot of things vs Macecharge, i have a list & almost every character can do anything to dodge/punish. Everyone can MB B3/F3 & neutral jump .

What? Nvm a move that is fast/full screen/armor/gives full combo into a hard knockdown/gives 30% unclashable or more into a hard knockdown/safe/gives pressure ? REALLY? Naw, Catwoman is great, she meeds nothing.

I know, also her meter building is not that good against some characters... Se needs it for everything. C'mon

But punishes are punishes, those aren't "on block" when you are completely removing the block portion of it.

30% for 1 bar if she makes the proper read all while being zoned, armored though, and chipped out by a good amount of the cast. I feel like shaving a few frames in exchange for a slightly worse j.2 isn't a crime.

Can't have everything.

 

[Doombawkz]

TBH he doesnt really need much to be able to compete quite well. B13 should be a string on block, as slow as b1 is Grundy shouldnt be punished for using a string. B1, trait isnt even a tick throw so it doesnt make sense that it doesnt even come out(Also DD high low, and Aquaman overhead into scoop low are both faster but fine so why is grundy not allowed this mix up). The WCC input needs a little work, or at the very least make it so that if I immediately do the input for the cancel and they jump over me the cancel still happens. Some want a buff to the diagonal/horizontal hit box of d2, which I dont think you need because his air grab covers what d2 doesn't(maybe slightly change the hurtbox so he doesnt stick his head above his anti air). MAINLY HIS TRAIT SHOULD NOT BE PARRY-ABLE, that I cannot stress enough. Bonus points if all that could be done, and his jump was like black adams, that would be godlike

I can agree with the "don't parry the trait", the rest I need some elaboration on. You'd want b.13 to be a true string, that's fair enough and would give him some good reach. You want some meter gain (even though Grundy is really efficient in his meter gain -> damage) and with the WCC you'll have to explain a bit more clearly exactly how I can fix that. Do you want the moves to auto-correct? Do you want the moves to simply not come out if the notation is flipped?

 

[big_aug]

Double punch should get the DMG increase and stay neutral. Bane's whole game revolves around the overhead low mixups. Right now, no one is scared of the DP overhead. 5% DMG would change that dramatically. You WILL eat at leat 5 DPs when fighting bane and that just doesn't mean much as it stands now.

 

[Doombawkz]

Double punch should get the DMG increase and stay neutral. Bane's whole game revolves around the overhead low mixups. Right now, no one is scared of the DP overhead. 5% DMG would change that dramatically. You WILL eat at leat 5 DPs when fighting bane and that just doesn't mean much as it stands now.

I don't like the idea of our game revolving around simply checking with random DPs. That's all.
Trust me, I went out of my way to be tame with Bane more than anyone. I wanted charge cancel so badly, but I know we don't need it. I figured a small give-and-take to make us more than a DP machine wouldn't hurt.

 

[SaJa]

He doesn't need to zone people, and that would defeat the purpose of using him over someone who can do it without trait.

It's not only about zoning, he needs something to regen his meter. And it would give more use to his trait (shazam would be more interesting). As you said Shazam is very meter dependant and don't have anything to make some properly.
Oh and I would make his trait still active during his super (will make his super usefull).

He already gets 40% in 5 hits without trait using j.3 MB HM b.3 j.3 HM

I was saying : meterless. (ji3, 112, torpedo, and you have probably better)
If shazam can do 51% often, so you'll get as much cry babies as flash (who can actually do it once per game because of 20sec + waggers).

That combo isn't realistic. In fact, my changes would prevent that by cutting down the duration of it.

That combo isn't realistic yet I did it more than once online starting by b2 or f12. Any trait corner combos will do +65% anyway.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[big_aug]

Bane is actually awful. We need to get a combo launcher of MB DP and he might compete with mid tier.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

But punishes are punishes, those aren't "on block" when you are completely removing the block portion of it.

30% for 1 bar if she makes the proper read all while being zoned, armored though, and chipped out by a good amount of the cast. I feel like shaving a few frames in exchange for a slightly worse j.2 isn't a crime.

Can't have everything.

In this game no move is punisheable on block, just a few ones.

I would rather to keep her ji2. Well those "frames" would make Catwoman ridiculous, nobody would want to zone her are you serious?

She has not much

 

[Doombawkz]

It's not only about zoning, he needs something to regen his meter. And it would give more use to his trait (shazam would be more interesting). As you said Shazam is very meter dependant and don't have anything to make some properly.
Oh and I would make his trait still active during his super (will make his super usefull).



I was saying : meterless. (ji3, 112, torpedo, and you have probably better)




That combo isn't realistic yet I did it more than once online starting by b2 or f12. Any trait corner combos will do +65% anyway.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

His meter can be snagged through means of his pressure and mix-ups, and given the QoL improvements to his jump-ins he has the benefit of trying for some every so often.

His trait is active during super anyways. :|

Meterless? I have j.2 f.223 112 torpedo which does about 1% more

Outside of those situational corner combos (I've done 0-death Bane combos online) Shazam really gains not much damage from the trait itself so giving it to him for half a combo and a mix-up is better than the alternative of him remaining with a good trait and sub-par everything else.

 

[Tiger Wong]

I can't imagine the MB or the air blocking, but an air dash is something even I admit to not knowing how she doesn't have it. Maybe because she has that little mini-charge thing? Anyways, I wouldn't object to having her have an air dash at all, honestly. The Mb armor on air specials, yeah that's a bit much. Block projectiles mid-air would shut down those characters because then they have to get through the gauntlet of maces and drops to do any damage outside of chip while you can still glide over and snag 1.5% off of every mace you throw.

The thing about blocking projectiles in the air..... She would have to move backwards to start blocking because blocking while in flight would make her move backwards and she would lose ground. And while looking at all the air projectiles and other projectiles that she could block, the advantage would be for neither of the characters if she blocks or they block.

An air dash would help the most but it would have to be only forward as giving her a backdash in flight would make her run away insane.

Oh and yeah..... You think every match vs bane is 5-5 except for the few he has the advantage in.

 

[Doombawkz]

In this game no move is punisheable on block, just a few ones.

I would rather to keep her ji2. Well those "frames" would make Catwoman ridiculous, nobody would want to zone her are you serious?

She has not much

Exactly. Making mace charge land closer doesn't make it per-se punishable, but it makes randomly checking people with them over and over avoidable.

That's good that no one wants to zone her, but people still will and its up to both players to make the right decision.

I disagree, I feel she has enough.

big_aug
Meh.

 

[SaJa]

His trait is active during super anyways. :|

No it's not. Superman yeah, Bane yeah, Shazam no.

 

[187x]

Doombawkz!!!!!!!!

 

[Doombawkz]

Oh and yeah..... You think every match vs bane is 5-5 except for the few he has the advantage in.

So how can you fix that? Making everything 5-5 is impossible, but making things "manageable" 7-3s isn't.

[/quote]

Uh... no? I openly admit Bane loses 2-8 to BA and Flash, 3-7 to Nightwing and Lex, and only has about 5 or 6 MUs where he has the advantage. Everything else is either even or a 4-6, mostly 4-6.