Doombawkz's Incredibly incorrect patch suggestion thread

[Doombawkz]

Overhead arrow is neutral to maybe +1 on hit. I'm talking about regular arrows. The thing is that he takes some time to land.

Low Arrow is +10 so he kan't load an arrow or dash safely against characters like Deathstroke or Black Adam. I think he should be able to at least dash safely once after landing a regular low arrow.

Paulo said they were going to fix his low arrows. I just like throwing it out there so people don't forget.

I'd rather have the advantage than the damage. He needs to get in range, I don't think he needs to zone people.

I like your Batman tweak too on his trait. It's a good idea since it allow the other player a chance to finally get in. Horrible match ups remain bad but they become bearable.

Its not for zoning (3% per hit?) But more for poke to prevent people from zoning him first and giving him a little something to go off of to boot. How much advantage would you personally want on the arrows? Rather, what would prevent him from shutting down characters without fast options to fight it?

Also the +10 might not help in those two MUs, but that's 2 out of almost 30 that you have to consider as well.

Sounds nice, I'm excited to see what they do.

I agree he needs to get in, but once he is in he doesn't need to have the ability to go off of his normal arrows. It needs to strike a balance where you still need some kind of arrow to keep pressure, but you don't need an arrow at all times.

Thanks. I don't think making it just "nerf by stocking" would be fair to him since his trait is pretty much everything. xD

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Hawkgirl:
*Her WE(3) is -1 it has not advantage.
*Mace Charge is -4 on block & the puchback is ok.
*The air movility would only help if it's horizontal & vertical but she doesn't need it at all.
*A faster B3
*Heavenly Stomp to he a hard knockdown


Catwoman:
*Her catdash being safer would be ridiculos -_- it's like -10 and if she MB it is less recovery. Wtf

Wonder Woman:
*Lasso grab being +14 on block is not an issue at all, since the move is a high, can be ducked pretty easy

Zatanna:
*Agree with comand reverse fix.
*Multi kicks to be safe without having to MB it on block.
*A bit faster B2

 

[Error]

Better than that other list posted by top players lol. I don't play HG though, but I think you're going in the wrong direction with her.

 

[Nonameformedude]

Basically, we are losing mobility and taking extra damage in venom cooldown, yet gaining neither benefit when its up. We are losing what we never had to begin with. Adding a -3 to DP would make it more than a thoughtless tool, and it would be a necessary evil if he is to gain much of any damage. Right now as it is, I'd rather it be -3 and do 3% more than it be neutral and do no damage. Its already heavily punished on backdash. The trait punishing us is actually not the problem, moreso that while we have trait armor is the only threat we have to work with and our attacks don't really compliment it in a field of characters who have much faster answers. Giving us minor buffs when venom is up to damage reduction and mobility will allow us to be a more present threat and will also add the stable practice of using trait to reduce damage now in trade of damage later. As far as Ring Toss goes, even if it got the armor it still lacks the reach to be an option over Venom Upper, so I'd rather have it be more than a niche damage combo ender. Quality of Life improvements basically means improving its functionality to what it should be, as it is now its very unreliable and glitch-baked.

As far as Grundy goes, you don't HAVE to branch but the option is open. Some people may want to have a bit of damage and a bit of chip reduction, where as some may not. I never understood why he had to commit to one branch, and I personally feel like opening two sides would give a better overall playstyle benefit to more than just "this one does more damage, this one does more etc". As far as Super goes, its just something I felt was long overdue and even if it doesn't affect his playstyle I feel like it could still use a fix for the hell of it. For the swamp hands, I feel like it doesn't give him as much presence at full-screen as it should and it should operate more on a pillar-style where you can catch people fishing for it mid-jump. WCC itself is a phenomenal tool and I really don't feel like it should be adjusted in such a way that you eliminate the opponent's options of crossing commands since you already deny just about every other option they have mid-walk.

Now if I understand correctly you want to buff his movement speed and reduce damage while hes in trait, which I agree with heavily and might even accept with the downfall to his wake up pressure by poking with double punch. Im not quite sure that DP is heavily punished on back dash, I find I clip many characters backdashes and if I dont because its recovery is what it is I can armor through any punish most characters attempt. If you add more recovery however it will most definitely be heavily punished on backdash by more characters. I feel putting your opponent full screen when you end a combo in debuff is more than a niche, but I feel it needs to be fixed regardless of how I will use it.

I mean yeah you could have a little of this and a little of that, mixing damage and health would probably become quite popular. I just feel grundy doesnt need that when we are talking about buffing/fixing a character, just not a priority in any way since it wont really effect the actual playstyle much. You will still put double defense on whenever you fight a zoner to make them come to you. You will still go for the high damage double health in every other match up until you are ahead then you might put on power for more damage in the begging of the second life bar. It effects preference not playstyle. I feel like the armor characters are not meant to be full screen(sans lex at certain points). Bane has nothing full screen, you charge(which is the only thing that will hit full screen)and every character in the game gets their highest damage punish from it. Grundy was given swamp hands to poke at a distance, but its main use is in combos to go into his reset. His amazing dash and WCC are his tool to get in close where he fights(also his defense chain to make people come close to him).Buffing hands would help his full screen play, but he doesnt need that because thats not where he belongs. You only deny options that are under 4 hits(which is very doable with a jump in), ungrabable framed strings are something that every character has and can use against grundy WC easily. NJ is an option that is only blow up if WCC. Thats where one person can outplay another. jumping over punishes a grundy player who read correctly and entered the WCC command, but it was not read(even thought the grundy player immediately entered the command to cancel because he knew they would jump)because the opponent jumped over gundy and made that input incorrect. The grundy player doesnt just have to make the correct read to punish the NJ, but he also has to make another read just to input a command. That is a problem. If the command was dd it would just increase Grundys quality of play, without effecting the opponents MU

 

[Red Reaper]

Its not for zoning (3% per hit?) But more for poke to prevent people from zoning him first and giving him a little something to go off of to boot. How much advantage would you personally want on the arrows? Rather, what would prevent him from shutting down characters without fast options to fight it?

Also the +10 might not help in those two MUs, but that's 2 out of almost 30 that you have to consider as well.

Sounds nice, I'm excited to see what they do.

I agree he needs to get in, but once he is in he doesn't need to have the ability to go off of his normal arrows. It needs to strike a balance where you still need some kind of arrow to keep pressure, but you don't need an arrow at all times.

Thanks. I don't think making it just "nerf by stocking" would be fair to him since his trait is pretty much everything. xD

Enough advantage for a dash in so +15.. This is on hit btw. If they block they still have their regular options.

He kan't load arrows off of low arrows on hit and he runs a risk every time he takes aim.

He also kan't kancel into dash when he holds a low arrow so people just shoot him as soon as they see him take aim while crouching. He is also free to interactables while doing this.

I also disagree with this.. That Super last a ridiculous amount of time and he kan block while in that super! Why does he need this?
~ Hitstun when in Super mode reduced to allow more usability

 

[Doombawkz]

Hawkgirl:
*Her WE(3) is -1 it has not advantage.
*Mace Charge is -4 on block & the puchback is ok.
*The air movility would only help if it's horizontal & vertical but she doesn't need it at all.
*A faster B3
*Heavenly Stomp to he a hard knockdown


Catwoman:
*Her catdash being safer would be ridiculos -_- it's like -10 and if she MB it is less recovery. Wtf

Wonder Woman:
*Lasso grab being +14 on block is not an issue at all, since the move is a high, can be ducked pretty easy

Zatanna:
*Agree with comand reverse fix.
*Multi kicks to be safe without having to MB it on block.
*A bit faster B2

I never said it had advantage, simply that it should have less than it does.
Mace charge is -4 and it has pushback. It shouldn't be something you can just keep throwing out to check people.
I added an air dash, nothing big but Tiger is right and I want her to have one too.
Does she really need a faster b.3 when she can loop 123 like 4 times before actually starting the rest of the combo?
Why does it need to be?

She has to spend meter to make it safe and she lacks a presence from the distance where Mb cat dash becomes a necessity. Hopefully adding a little safety to it will let her play with the people she wouldn't be able to contend with otherwise.

If its easily duckable then taking a bit of advantage off shouldn't be an issue at all either.

Fixing bugs is always important
With all of her already potent tools, I don't think her low-starter special which can be MB into b.3 for a full combo and reset should be naturally safe on top of it. That's just me.
I personally think her b.2 is fine.

 

[Niko Mar]

Dem Zod changes...SEXY!

 

[afrozilla86]

So aqua man keeps his 9f low batman keeps his j2 but supes f23 is now 12f and lantern b1 now 11f. Seems fair ... OK so minor tweaks here or there, but the overall ideas are actually fairly manageable and pretty good

 

[Doombawkz]

Now if I understand correctly you want to buff his movement speed and reduce damage while hes in trait, which I agree with heavily and might even accept with the downfall to his wake up pressure by poking with double punch. Im not quite sure that DP is heavily punished on back dash, I find I clip many characters backdashes and if I dont because its recovery is what it is I can armor through any punish most characters attempt. If you add more recovery however it will most definitely be heavily punished on backdash by more characters. I feel putting your opponent full screen when you end a combo in debuff is more than a niche, but I feel it needs to be fixed regardless of how I will use it.

I mean yeah you could have a little of this and a little of that, mixing damage and health would probably become quite popular. I just feel grundy doesnt need that when we are talking about buffing/fixing a character, just not a priority in any way since it wont really effect the actual playstyle much. You will still put double defense on whenever you fight a zoner to make them come to you. You will still go for the high damage double health in every other match up until you are ahead then you might put on power for more damage in the begging of the second life bar. It effects preference not playstyle. I feel like the armor characters are not meant to be full screen(sans lex at certain points). Bane has nothing full screen, you charge(which is the only thing that will hit full screen)and every character in the game gets their highest damage punish from it. Grundy was given swamp hands to poke at a distance, but its main use is in combos to go into his reset. His amazing dash and WCC are his tool to get in close where he fights(also his defense chain to make people come close to him).Buffing hands would help his full screen play, but he doesnt need that because thats not where he belongs. You only deny options that are under 4 hits(which is very doable with a jump in), ungrabable framed strings are something that every character has and can use against grundy WC easily. NJ is an option that is only blow up if WCC. Thats where one person can outplay another. jumping over punishes a grundy player who read correctly and entered the WCC command, but it was not read(even thought the grundy player immediately entered the command to cancel because he knew they would jump)because the opponent jumped over gundy and made that input incorrect. The grundy player doesnt just have to make the correct read to punish the NJ, but he also has to make another read just to input a command. That is a problem. If the command was dd it would just increase Grundys quality of play, without effecting the opponents MU

The DP change is only on block, it has the same recovery when whiffed. As far as ring toss goes, it gives no advantage and it puts you half screen so as far as optimizing goes Body Press is a better ender which leads in. Ring toss is for like huge damage only, and I want to make it so that it has a use.

So, in summary, how do you think you could fix Grundy's biggest problems without making him basically a huge mugger in the corner? He does huge damage, and the swamp hands Mb can also help against characters who try to IAFB since you'll pop them out of the sky for it, something that (to my knowledge) Grundy has some serious trouble with. As the OP says I am prone to overlook some things so if you have genuine ideas to improve my list I'm all for them. As long as they make sense as a whole I'm certainly not objected to changing it to fit your opinion. I gave the stuff that, at a glance of the sub forums, seemed to blanket the needs moreso than the luxuries, but to say this list is end-all accurate would be far from correct. I want to encourage intellectual discussion over what characters truly need so hopefully people will stop making these lists.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I never said it had advantage, simply that it should have less than it does.
Mace charge is -4 and it has pushback. It shouldn't be something you can just keep throwing out to check people.
I added an air dash, nothing big but Tiger is right and I want her to have one too.
Does she really need a faster b.3 when she can loop 123 like 4 times before actually starting the rest of the combo?
Why does it need to be?

She has to spend meter to make it safe and she lacks a presence from the distance where Mb cat dash becomes a necessity. Hopefully adding a little safety to it will let her play with the people she wouldn't be able to contend with otherwise.

If its easily duckable then taking a bit of advantage off shouldn't be an issue at all either.

Fixing bugs is always important
With all of her already potent tools, I don't think her low-starter special which can be MB into b.3 for a full combo and reset should be naturally safe on top of it. That's just me.
I personally think her b.2 is fine.

You said it had advantage o.o but ok! The thing is that you want it to have more recovery right? How must would you likeit to be? I think it's good as how it it since WE(3) is an enormous part of her rushdown game, it's practically all her pressure.
Mace charge umm i think the oushback is ok & people can't do it over & over if you know how to handle it.

Do you realize that after a blocked full screen MB Catdash they can D1 then B1 or F1 puting you into her deadly rushdown? Her rushdown is godlike, giving her a fast/armored/full screen/completely safe move to get in would be ridiculous, without mentioning that gives full combo on hit. I don't agree with it being less unsafe. The recovery is actually pretty fast. A lot of characters can't punish it, & there's A LOT of people that don't punish it even if it's not MB, when they can punish it.

Zatanna's regular multi kicks are -8 on block, that's unsafe considerint that the pushback os unexistant, we MUST MB it ON BLOCK to make it safe -_- not even + on block or something, & yes, it gives full combo on hit, but please it's pretty easy to block it.

Her B2 is pretty slow, maybe not faster, but at least a bit more range, not much tho.

 

[Doombawkz]

So aqua man keeps his 9f low batman keeps his j2 but supes f23 is now 12f and lantern b1 now 11f. Seems fair ... OK so minor tweaks here or there, but the overall ideas are actually fairly manageable and pretty good

Honestly Aquaman is one of those characters where I looked at it and said "Honestly, who does he even really DOMINATE where I'd need to justify a change to his core tools?" and outside of him getting huge chip with trident rush there really weren't any other outstanding complaints that weren't on a case-by-case basis. I'm not looking to make all of the characters average, Supes still having a somewhat quick advancing normal and his Super still being able to punish anything "unsafe", on top of his heat zap recovery and a very small ice breath scaling pull-back isn't to make him "oh he is so average" but to reign him in from the "Holy cow that skill gap".

As far as Batman goes, his j.2 is pretty heavily based around his bats to be fully effective, outside of that its no worse than some other tools and him losing his trait stock recharge AND j.2 would probably shut him down totally.

Trust me, I'd love to make everyone lose to my main and only focus on the stuff from that one MU, but I'm trying to fish from every sub-forum to see what they really suffer from and try to tweak it to make the game more diverse and playable at an upper level. People get shut down by Bat-trait, fast advancing f.23, and a 2 frame super. No one really loses out completely to Aquaman 9f low.

:/ Just to shed some light into my mentality on it and try to not seem like I'm winging it lol

 

[Cage Redfield]

czar toss mb to back 3 isn't even hard

spin cycle isn't going to be made better with a hit-box fix when its the slowest starting air throw in the entire game

hook charge is the best anti-air lobo has, i don't see why it needs an improvement to the vertical hit-box

i agree with him having a wakeup, though.

 

[Chongo]

HG/Bane is 5-5 but ok. Also heard NW/HG is 5-5 but that's according to like... Chongo so yeah.

I can't imagine the MB or the air blocking, but an air dash is something even I admit to not knowing how she doesn't have it. Maybe because she has that little mini-charge thing? Anyways, I wouldn't object to having her have an air dash at all, honestly. The Mb armor on air specials, yeah that's a bit much. Block projectiles mid-air would shut down those characters because then they have to get through the gauntlet of maces and drops to do any damage outside of chip while you can still glide over and snag 1.5% off of every mace you throw.

So how can you fix that? Making everything 5-5 is impossible, but making things "manageable" 7-3s isn't.

Keep my name out of this I was wrong. 6-4 HG.

Also because I'm a petty bitch:

But on the flip side she also has three legitmate 7-3 matchups vs (1) DS, (2) Sinestro, (3) Batgirl and (4) Lex.

However I support HG buffs to the fullest.

 

[Doombawkz]

You said it had advantage o.o but ok! The thing is that you want it to have more recovery right? How must would you likeit to be? I think it's good as how it it since WE(3) is an enormous part of her rushdown game, it's practically all her pressure.
Mace charge umm i think the oushback is ok & people can't do it over & over if you know how to handle it.

Do you realize that after a blocked full screen MB Catdash they can D1 then B1 or F1 puting you into her deadly rushdown? Her rushdown is godlike, giving her a fast/armored/completely safe move to get in would be rediculous, without mentioning that gives full combo on hit. I don't agree with it being less unsafe. The recovery is actually pretty fast. A lot of characters can't punish it, & there's A LOT of people that don't punish it even if it's not MB, when they can punish it.

Zatanna's regular multi kicks are -8 on block, that's unsafe considerint that the pushback os unexistant, we MUST MB it ON BLOCK to make it safe -_- not even + on block or something, & yes, it gives full combo on hit, but please it's pretty easy to block it.

Her B2 is pretty slow, maybe not faster, but at least a bit more range, not much tho.

Tiger gave the number -4 and I felt that was good since its still safe, still gives a bit of advantage while not being as bad as -1. Won't change much but it does give some breathing room where its needed.

Its still a very dominant tool, and pulling it back a bit to make it not push as far on hit will make it so more character have more options than hoping they can hit their move before another mace charge comes flying in.

I do realize that theres a reason she isn't in the very top, and that's because outside of that MB cat-dash and the j.2 (which had its range reduced in the list) she doesn't have much for reach or presence. Making it less unsafe gives her a way in, but it still requires a good read and the use of meter to pull off, and without either of those you can still be eating a punish or a counter attack once you are finally in. If she gets pushed back out again, then she has to spend more to get all the way back in. My idea just gives her a way to make it count once she is, but its just my outlook on it.

I think -8 is fine, most characters have sweeps with worse advantage than that honestly and if you are checking people with raw and unsafe multi-kicks then why should you be rewarded with it being safe on block?

Why does she need it though? That's what I want to know, when to my knowledge she has better options.

 

[Doombawkz]

czar toss mb to back 3 isn't even hard

spin cycle isn't going to be made better with a hit-box fix when its the slowest starting air throw in the entire game

hook charge is the best anti-air lobo has, i don't see why it needs an improvement to the vertical hit-box

i agree with him having a wakeup, though.

Its the same as the Flash one, its more to help players who can't handle the tight link to get it down more consistently. When you are in a tourney and the pressure is on, I'd rather not have the chances lost over a dropped tight link that leads into his best damage.

The hitbox fix is more to fix his issue of it sometimes whiffing in juggles.

The air-reach is to help people who are trying to cross-over during wake-up attempts, its more as a "It hits less than it shows itself reaching" and I think the hitbox should follow the animation moreso than disregard it.

The wake-up is tied into the hook charge.

 

[Doombawkz]

Keep my name out of this I was wrong. 6-4 HG.

Hey, you said it, not me.

 

[MagicMan357]

Yes she is.

LOL

 

[Chongo]

Hey, you said it, not me.

I don't even think I said 5-5, I said it could be 5-5 or 6-4 HG, my main point was that it wasn't 7-3 HG.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Tiger gave the number -4 and I felt that was good since its still safe, still gives a bit of advantage while not being as bad as -1. Won't change much but it does give some breathing room where its needed.

Its still a very dominant tool, and pulling it back a bit to make it not push as far on hit will make it so more character have more options than hoping they can hit their move before another mace charge comes flying in.

I do realize that theres a reason she isn't in the very top, and that's because outside of that MB cat-dash and the j.2 (which had its range reduced in the list) she doesn't have much for reach or presence. Making it less unsafe gives her a way in, but it still requires a good read and the use of meter to pull off, and without either of those you can still be eating a punish or a counter attack once you are finally in. If she gets pushed back out again, then she has to spend more to get all the way back in. My idea just gives her a way to make it count once she is, but its just my outlook on it.

I think -8 is fine, most characters have sweeps with worse advantage than that honestly and if you are checking people with raw and unsafe multi-kicks then why should you be rewarded with it being safe on block?

Why does she need it though? That's what I want to know, when to my knowledge she has better options.

Well -3 would be ok maybe.

But there are a lot of options vs Mace Charge. Well... I don't think the things would change so much. But if you are going to do it... Then Superman's breath, Green Lantern's turbine & other moves must have the same fix.

Catwoman must be so patient, but her way to get in is about reads, she has actually no problem getting in with some exeptions. This would help a bit her difficult match ups but would make her winning match ups something like 7-3 in some cases. Her Ji2 is fine, ji2 is another great toolto get in, i actually think that Catwoman needs no buffs/nerfs.


She still has an unsafe whip too. & i would like it to be safer because it's her only combo starter, we MUST MB it on hit & on block Always to be safe or have a combo. Her moves are way too slow, her only fast normal is standing 1 which is like 5 frames of start up, butit's a high & people can poke it out, besides of that multi kicks is her only good offensive move up close.


She needs it because every single of her moves is slow or can be poked out, or must be MB'd to be safe, a bit faster or with more range overhead will be so helpful, i main her

 

[Doombawkz]

I don't even think I said 5-5, I said it could be 5-5 or 6-4 HG, my main point was that it wasn't 7-3 HG.

Doombawkz

Did I ever mention I'm picking up Hawkgirl simply to kill Nightwing players?​

Jul 17, 2013 Delete

• 
  Chongo
  
  That MU is 5-5 or 6-4 NW.​
  Jul 17, 2013 Delete

Page 6 of my profile page. What it do?

 

[Chongo]

Doombawkz

Did I ever mention I'm picking up Hawkgirl simply to kill Nightwing players?​

Jul 17, 2013 Delete

• 
  Chongo
  
  That MU is 5-5 or 6-4 NW.​
  Jul 17, 2013 Delete

Page 6 of my profile page. What it do?

I meant to say HG, I'm dumb ;_;

 

[ELC]

@ Catwoman: Trait is usable as a wakeup tool first and a combo tool second. I think the better change would be to decrease the damage, but also give it some kind of utility on block.

 

[SaJa]

If you buff shazam's trait that much you should leave all the other things as it is now or he will be a new superman.

 

[Doombawkz]

Well -3 would be ok maybe.

But there are a lot of options vs Mace Charge. Well... I don't think the things would change so much. But if you are going to do it... Then Superman's breath, Green Lantern's turbine & other moves must have the same fix.

Catwoman must be so patient, but her way to get in is about reads, she has actually no problem getting in with some exeptions. This would help a bit her difficult match ups but would make her winning match ups something like 7-3 in some cases. Her Ji2 is fine, ji2 is another great toolto get in, i actually think that Catwoman needs no buffs/nerfs.


She still has an unsafe whip too. & i would like it to be safer because it's her only combo starter, we MUST MB it on hit & on block Always to be safe or have a combo. Her moves are way too slow, her only fast normal is standing 1 which is like 5 frames of start up, butit's a high & people can poke it out, besides of that multi kicks is her only good offensive move up close.


She needs it because every single of her moves is slow or can be poked out, or must be MB'd to be safe, a bit faster or with more range overhead will be so helpful, i main her

-3 is basically -4 :|

Breath is already negative on block, and I don't think people usually use turbine to get in on block. Pretty sure its just for air travel. I made Bane's DP -3 to make it a less thoughtless tool, so my train of thought would probably be the same for similar things.

I don't think she gets to be 7-3 by her MB cat dash becoming safer on block, since the characters who would be losing would still probably be losing since they didn't have an answer for it in the first place. It would bring down her bad MUs while buffing in her mid-MUs a bit.

Her standing 1 has the reach of a sneeze, its really sad. Even still, though, throwing out kicks and it being safe still doesn't make sense to me. I had the same logic with Scorp flip kick in that its a good tool when its meant to be used, but giving it too much will lead to it becoming a random check more than something that needs a read to be fully effective.

She seems really solid, and while I won't deny she has some slow attacks not all of her attacks are that way. The woman has dive kicks, teleports, projectiles, reversed inputs, standing resets... She really seems like a character who doesn't need much of anything else.

 

[Doombawkz]

@ Catwoman: Trait is usable as a wakeup tool first and a combo tool second. I think the better change would be to decrease the damage, but also give it some kind of utility on block.

Solid input, so what kind of change would you want to see exactly? Maybe more advantage? If so, how much?