Match-up Discussion Nightwing Matchup Discussion

[Sajam]

Snip

Shelter me in NorCal and I could do this for a week straight, and for hours longer ;D.

It was a fun set, and I got to practice a lot, since I've been feeling a bit meh about the game lately. I'm excited to play now, and hopefully this helps you guys out <3.

 

[mush210]

goddamn, Sajam. Your NW is beastly; so many good reads and punishes. Seems like you learned a lot from these matched NDZ. Thanks for uploading these!

 

[NightwingDayZero]

goddamn, Sajam. Your NW is beastly; so many good reads and punishes. Seems like you learned a lot from these matched NDZ. Thanks for uploading these!

Yeah, my understanding of the matchup was very one dimensional. I really wished I had this practice before I had gone to EVO. Such an awesome experience.

I've been putting in some serious work, much more to come!

 

[dribirut]

Favorable matchup for Nightwing. From a quick glance over at the Catwoman forums, they hate dealing with him. Bit fuzzy on the details of my own experience as I haven't played the matchup in a while but here's the little that I remember:
when he's in escrima stance its very easy to bully him with zoning and trait and when he's in staff I can zone him easier and bait ground charges for full combos

Another instance where Staff shines. Just don't get antsy with staff pound, a good read on MB Cat dash kinda blows that up. Besides that, pretty much the only thing she has to contest your range is her whip (Iirc correctly her sweep is a whip too, really good normal). Her trait is good on wakeup from what I remember (Need to test if it gets blown up by the STD setup, probs does though), so be sure to have your anti-wakeup setups ready when she has it. The matchup is like fighting Batgirl in a sense; basically just stay at the range of staff where you can hit her but she can't touch you.



Reasoning?

when he's in escrima I can bully him with trait and outzone him if needed. when in staff I can outdone him and easilly bait out ground charges for full teleport combos. also I have a very easy time punishing flying dicks with trait

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Favorable matchup for Nightwing. From a quick glance over at the Catwoman forums, they hate dealing with him. Bit fuzzy on the details of my own experience as I haven't played the matchup in a while but here's the little that I remember:

Another instance where Staff shines. Just don't get antsy with staff pound, a good read on MB Cat dash kinda blows that up. Besides that, pretty much the only thing she has to contest your range is her whip (Iirc correctly her sweep is a whip too, really good normal). Her trait is good on wakeup from what I remember (Need to test if it gets blown up by the STD setup, probs does though), so be sure to have your anti-wakeup setups ready when she has it. The matchup is like fighting Batgirl in a sense; basically just stay at the range of staff where you can hit her but she can't touch you.

How do you discourage j2 (jump in whip f2) shennanigans? It seems like Catwoman's j2 is a free jump in.

I'll have to take it to the lab, but I'm interested in what you have to say about it.

 

[Sajam]

when he's in escrima I can bully him with trait and outzone him if needed. when in staff I can outdone him and easilly bait out ground charges for full teleport combos. also I have a very easy time punishing flying dicks with trait

MMH shouldn't be bullying him when he's in escrima. Even if he has trait, NW has the normals to deal with him once he's inside, and as long as you play patient on MMH's wakeup NW will be fine. His normal oki game shenanigans and frame traps still apply, and MMH's slow normals make it difficult for him to keep NW off of him once he gets in. MMH's zoning game is good if your spacing is on point, for sure. It just depends on the NW switching up what he's doing and not falling into patterns and MMH shouldn't win.

 

[Sajam]

How do you discourage j2 (jump in whip f2) shennanigans? It seems like Catwoman's j2 is a free jump in.

I'll have to take it to the lab, but I'm interested in what you have to say about it.

Air to air with j2 in staff. I did a write up about Catwoman on the last page, the matchup is one that you have to learn the hard way a few times.

 

[dribirut]

MMH shouldn't be bullying him when he's in escrima. Even if he has trait, NW has the normals to deal with him once he's inside, and as long as you play patient on MMH's wakeup NW will be fine. His normal oki game shenanigans and frame traps still apply, and MMH's slow normals make it difficult for him to keep NW off of him once he gets in. MMH's zoning game is good if your spacing is on point, for sure. It just depends on the NW switching up what he's doing and not falling into patterns and MMH shouldn't win.

we should then run a set. in escrima your best normal is b2 which is 15frames I believe. but my 2 reaches much further and is only 12 frames. also my aerial.game is much better. but all of this is in trait of course. still my d1 is very good so getting people.off me isn't that but of a deal

 

[Trip Se7ens]

holy fuck, what is that combo you do in staff sajem? j2,2 b3, j2... he was dead already. T_T What is the rest. you are so sick.

 

[KombatNerd]

I think one day I'll summarize instead of including giant quotes in the spoiler tags... idk yet

And there's still quite a few w/o anything at all.

 

[Sajam]

holy fuck, what is that combo you do in staff sajem? j2,2 b3, j2... he was dead already. T_T What is the rest. you are so sick.

j2, j2, b3, j2, j2, 1

You can end with flying grayson for the damage, or staff spin for the knockdown into oki. Also, off of 1f1 db2 mb I was doing neutral j2 into b3 into the normal combo.

Gotta optimize your stuff!

 

[Trip Se7ens]

j2, j2, b3, j2, j2, 1

You can end with flying grayson for the damage, or staff spin for the knockdown into oki. Also, off of 1f1 db2 mb I was doing neutral j2 into b3 into the normal combo.

Gotta optimize your stuff!

ive been doing 1f1 db2 mb b3, j2, 3, 1, flying grayson. is that optimal? also, i dunno what oki means.

 

[Sajam]

ive been doing 1f1 db2 mb b3, j2, 3, 1, flying grayson. is that optimal? also, i dunno what oki means.

You can do the neutral j2 before the b3 to make it optimal.

Oki is short for okizeme, which is a term used for pressuring/abusing your opponents wake up game. Stuff like cross ups/overheads/throws/etc. Any pressure you get off of a knockdown is called oki for short.

 

[Trip Se7ens]

1f1 db2 mb J2, b3, j2, 3, 1, flying grayson

guess i gotta practice that now

 

[Trip Se7ens]

for pressure, i should be doing 112 bc it leaves you at +3 on block?

in escrima i mean

 

[Cosmic_Castaway]

How do you discourage j2 (jump in whip f2) shennanigans? It seems like Catwoman's j2 is a free jump in.

I'll have to take it to the lab, but I'm interested in what you have to say about it.

Pretty much what Sajam said. j2 in Staff. Also d2 in Escrima is really good now. Like, really good. I don't see people mention this move enough.

And Afaik she can't cross up NW with that? Idk I'm pretty sure I read something like that on the Catwoman forums.

when he's in escrima I can bully him with trait and outzone him if needed. when in staff I can outdone him and easilly bait out ground charges for full teleport combos. also I have a very easy time punishing flying dicks with trait

I played a MMH at Summer Jam and blew him up free, but I don't think the matchup is worse than 6-4 or 5-5 just based on principle, I just outplayed him (Many thanks to @Sajam's writeup (>^.^)> you da bes). If you're baiting and bullying a NW that bad, it's because you're just that much better than him. MMH doesn't outzone Nightwing when he's in staff either. MMH can't do jack shit about staff pound from fullscreen because Nightwing is at +frames and teleport doesn't give him projectile invul. You have to go in. And then when you're in, you get to deal with pressure. Also, unless you're telling me that you can read every b2 I'm going to do and beat it with 2, then one being 15f and the other being 12f is kind of irrelevant outside of start of round. Also what happens when you lose trait? There goes all your great normals and footsies. Nightwing doesn't have to rely on a timer to be able to play footsies with you. That alone should tell you something about the matchup.

P.S. No NW should just be doing raw Flying Grayson unless it's for a purpose like AA'ing or punishing. -.-

 

[Sajam]

P.S. No NW should just be doing raw Flying Grayson unless it's for a purpose like AA'ing or punishing. -.-

I think I've said this every day since I've been playing this character. Know this shit off, seriously. You better have a read so fucking good that you'd bet a house on it or you are super desperate.

Also, good shit on blowing up a MMH <3

 

[Cosmic_Castaway]

I think I've said this every day since I've been playing this character. Know this shit off, seriously. You better have a read so fucking good that you'd bet a house on it or you are super desperate.

Also, good shit on blowing up a MMH <3

I will admit, sometimes, I am about that raw Flying Grayson life lmao. Totally reads though, trust me. >.>

And thanks, I'm pretty sure I would have had a much tougher time without that writeup. That character is so good and versatile, it was a blast getting to play one. This matchup would be on WW/NW levels of interesting, but MMH just isn't great against NW.

 

[SilverKeyMan]

Okay, I have to ask because it's been bugging me...

Is there any purpose at all for u3/u3d3? Is there a situation or match-up where this is useful? Or is it just garbage?

 

[Sajam]

Okay, I have to ask because it's been bugging me...

Is there any purpose at all for u3/u3d3? Is there a situation or match-up where this is useful? Or is it just garbage?

I use it to corpse hop in the corner for setups, and that's about it.

I kind of wish we could armor the move or something.

 

[KombatNerd]

I sometimes do 223 dash up u3 midscreen for gimmicks.

 

[Chongo]

Okay, I have to ask because it's been bugging me...

Is there any purpose at all for u3/u3d3? Is there a situation or match-up where this is useful? Or is it just garbage?

A gimmick, and I stress, gimmick I sometimes do is 112 u3 in the corner. 112 is +21 on block, and u3 is 25 frames and +10 on block, meaning you check them with another 112. If your opponent catches on they can backdash between the 1 and the 2 and poke before u3 comes out. Even still I rarely use it.

Besides that and what Sajam posted, I can't think of much else its good for.

 

[dribirut]

Pretty much what Sajam said. j2 in Staff. Also d2 in Escrima is really good now. Like, really good. I don't see people mention this move enough.

And Afaik she can't cross up NW with that? Idk I'm pretty sure I read something like that on the Catwoman forums.




I played a MMH at Summer Jam and blew him up free, but I don't think the matchup is worse than 6-4 or 5-5 just based on principle, I just outplayed him (Many thanks to @Sajam's writeup (>^.^)> you da bes). If you're baiting and bullying a NW that bad, it's because you're just that much better than him. MMH doesn't outzone Nightwing when he's in staff either. MMH can't do jack shit about staff pound from fullscreen because Nightwing is at +frames and teleport doesn't give him projectile invul. You have to go in. And then when you're in, you get to deal with pressure. Also, unless you're telling me that you can read every b2 I'm going to do and beat it with 2, then one being 15f and the other being 12f is kind of irrelevant outside of start of round. Also what happens when you lose trait? There goes all your great normals and footsies. Nightwing doesn't have to rely on a timer to be able to play footsies with you. That alone should tell you something about the matchup.

P.S. No NW should just be doing raw Flying Grayson unless it's for a purpose like AA'ing or punishing. -.-

ivebeen as to beat out staff ground sparks with well timed teles. this makes the nw cautious and I proceed to zone. I'd be glad to play you some sets to get a better understanding of the mu

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Okay, I have to ask because it's been bugging me...

Is there any purpose at all for u3/u3d3? Is there a situation or match-up where this is useful? Or is it just garbage?

I accidently anti aired a BA J2 with U3 when I was trying to NJ3, didn't even make sense to me...just one of those random moments that happen in a match. It's definitely a change up pitch to NW's rhythm, being one of the faster paced fighters in the game. The start up has to be his slowest normal along with U3D3, so it really takes a regular NW player out of his rhythm to throw that move in there, I'm sure one of the better NW players in here can find some use of it. I agree with Sajam that this move should be armored, it's too risky to do online.

What they should've done was made the U3D3 faster and turn it into NW's D3 input. It's a really cool move to look at consider NWs acrobatic history so it would be nice if it can be used as an alternate low close range attack besides ground spark. NW has quality overhead attacks, but his low in escrima could of been better. I'm not asking for them to give Dick Superman Lasers or Lantern's might, just like to see him use his elite athletic and acrobatic ability in all his normals. They did a great job overall IMO, just would change the D3 in Escrima.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

U3 should have no recovery. Kappa