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The Superman Nerf Chronicles

godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
MUs that favor the opponent over superman.
Batgirl (Space control, reactive anti-zoning that leads into combos, Scorpion-esque, strong 50/50 standing vortex)
Wonder Woman (Everything you can do I can do better, other than zone, but I don't care about zoning so lulz)
Aquaman (Trait > Superman combos, Range >= Superman, can't really zone him out)
Hawkgirl (Incredibly annoying, hard to reach, able to fight in supermans deadzone)

I think these following MUs are closer to 5-5 but still SLIGHTLY favor the opponent.
Black Adam (Superman + Divekick, better damage, better movement, better trait)
Batman (Bat pressure, zoning, mobility)
Flash (Punishment, damage, better up close game)

Probably a bad MU but too early to tell:
MMH


Of course everyone is just going to reply "Those aren't bad match-ups" while avoiding explaining their thoughts, or experiences that support their statement. The reason the replies will take that shape is because no one is interested in an honest discussion. They just want to see superman burn, and after that they will want to see Black Adam, Batgirl, MMH, Zod, Flash and Wonder Woman (assuming someone other than f0xy picks her up, or he gets over to the states and starts placing with her.) burn as well.
 
KDZ

KDZ

It's amore, BABY.
Flash has d2, a 7 frame + on block launcher that reduces his hitbox so that you cant hit it with f23 during any point of its animation or recovery. It literally can't be baited with almost anything superman has. He at the same time can get in on Superman's ranged game with ease, and his low starter on his 50-50 dodges superman's rising grab, allowing for punishment.

He's the embodiment of a walking 7-3. The same damage, but anywhere onscreen. A real 50-50, half of which neutralizes your wakeup. A single move that negates your only footsie tool, and cannot be baited.

He's not the only bad matchup.
 
godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
KDZ said:
Flash has d2, a 7 frame + on block launcher that reduces his hitbox so that you cant hit it with f23 during any point of its animation or recovery. It literally can't be baited with almost anything superman has. He at the same time can get in on Superman's ranged game with ease, and his low starter on his 50-50 dodges superman's rising grab, allowing for punishment.

He's the embodiment of a walking 7-3. The same damage, but anywhere onscreen. A real 50-50, half of which neutralizes your wakeup. A single move that negates your only footsie tool, and cannot be baited.

He's not the only bad matchup.
Click to expand...

Zyphox seemed to believe differently last time I brought those issues up with him, but it'd be interesting to see if his tune changed after playing with the EMP guys.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
godlessmode said:
MUs that favor the opponent over superman.
Batgirl (Space control, reactive anti-zoning that leads into combos, Scorpion-esque, strong 50/50 standing vortex)
Wonder Woman (Everything you can do I can do better, other than zone, but I don't care about zoning so lulz)
Aquaman (Trait > Superman combos, Range >= Superman, can't really zone him out)
Hawkgirl (Incredibly annoying, hard to reach, able to fight in supermans deadzone)

I think these following MUs are closer to 5-5 but still SLIGHTLY favor the opponent.
Black Adam (Superman + Divekick, better damage, better movement, better trait)
Batman (Bat pressure, zoning, mobility)
Flash (Punishment, damage, better up close game)

Probably a bad MU but too early to tell:
MMH


Of course everyone is just going to reply "Those aren't bad match-ups" while avoiding explaining their thoughts, or experiences that support their statement. The reason the replies will take that shape is because no one is interested in an honest discussion. They just want to see superman burn, and after that they will want to see Black Adam, Batgirl, MMH, Zod, Flash and Wonder Woman (assuming someone other than f0xy picks her up, or he gets over to the states and starts placing with her.) burn as well.
Click to expand...

Hawkgirl is never in her favour. Aquaman is a 5-5.
 
Breakin Wordzz

Breakin Wordzz

Best Rengar NA, also ares of world
Kiko said:
The point that people that bring up Superman not having any lows (mix up game) is stupid.

You're right lets give this guy even more reason to destroy everyone else. Besides he does have mix up game, it's just unsafe.
Click to expand...
He has no 50/50 mix up it can be fuzzy guarded every single time. Actually i just remembered about the stupid otg that NRS will take out of the game. SO yeah the only mixup in the broken otg.
 
Breakin Wordzz

Breakin Wordzz

Best Rengar NA, also ares of world
Vulcan Hades said:
All I know is: Superman without Super = S tier. Superman with Super = SSS tier and most players don't even understand why yet.

His Super is an unblockable, unbreakable satellite 2nd trait that hits you when you do any action other than crouching or walking. It can whiff punish anything in the game. But that's not even the best thing about it. The best thing about his Super is that all your options against F23 and all your options against lasers become severely limited until it is used. Jumping and backdashing are no longer safe options if Superman is sitting on full meter. And let's face it, Superman always has Super. And even once he uses it, it doesn't take that much time for him to get full meter again.

A good Superman player will not burn all his meter on MB lasers, MB b3 and wake ups. A good Supes will sacrifice damage and even take damage to ensure that he has super or is 1 bar away from super at all times. That's something KDZ understands that many Superman players still fail to realize: how much stronger Superman's zoning and pressure becomes when he's just sitting on full meter. That's the difference between "Superman" and "15 minutes inside the sun Superman".

People think Superman is #1 in the game now, wait until Superman players get to KDZ's level. No... wait until KDZ actually starts leveling up lol. Don't fool yourselves thinking KDZ has reached his plateau and can't get any better than he is right now.
Click to expand...
I highly doubt a superman will be able to super on reaction to a dash...
 
TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
KDZ said:
Flash has d2, a 7 frame + on block launcher that reduces his hitbox so that you cant hit it with f23 during any point of its animation or recovery. It literally can't be baited with almost anything superman has. He at the same time can get in on Superman's ranged game with ease, and his low starter on his 50-50 dodges superman's rising grab, allowing for punishment.

He's the embodiment of a walking 7-3. The same damage, but anywhere onscreen. A real 50-50, half of which neutralizes your wakeup. A single move that negates your only footsie tool, and cannot be baited.

He's not the only bad matchup.
Click to expand...
Flash's phase dodge can be trait cancelled into combo. See Zyphox's video.
If you use heat vision, Flash can punish you for 61% using only trait, I believe.
From there, he can go into his crazy rushdown and 50/50s.
See, I thought Superman had bad MU's but people keep saying No.
Some MU's just feel bad when you go in.
 
Breakin Wordzz

Breakin Wordzz

Best Rengar NA, also ares of world
You cannot argue superman is the best because he has "no bad matchups" Would you use a character that goes 5-5 with everyone or would you want the character that goes 8-2 with everyone and one 4-6? i would rather have a charter that bodies the most amount of characters or at least the top 10s.
 
godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
Wigy said:
Hawkgirl is never in her favour. Aquaman is a 5-5.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't bother replying to you since my response was already in my initial post. But you didn't bother to offer a shred of reason, evidence or thought. You merely came in with a contrary viewpoint, and no support whatsoever.

Posts like yours are why it's so difficult to have a sincere discussion about game balance.
 
1

187x

Warrior
Alien Substance why did you delete my post? it wasn't a insult or anything i was just telling it how it is. I'm starting to hate the new tym. Every bs gets front paged. Everything gets closed and deleted for no reason
 
Alien Substance

Alien Substance

Evanesce
187x said:
why did you delete my post? it wasn't a insult or anything i was just telling it how it is. I'm starting to hate the new tym. Every bs gets front paged. Everything gets closed and deleted for no reason
Click to expand...
Assuming that others are changing match-up numbers because they are getting bodied by certain people, and calling someone an idiot for whatever reason, is insulting and disrespectful.
If you hate the new TYM, why don't you leave, instead of suffering here?
 
Crathen

Crathen

Death is my business
godlessmode said:
What about Grundy corner damage? What about BA corner damage? MMH? Wonder Woman. Etc?

Most, if not all of these characters exceed Supes corner damage. What is the arbitrary acceptable corner damage in your opinion?
Click to expand...

What about the rest of the cast? Grundy corner damage makes sense , except the guaranteed grab imo he doesn't have good projectiles / jump arc he is designed to deal damage when he gets in. BA doesn't get up to 65% , WW damage is good no doubt but her corner game is based on OTG not raw damage , MMH how much can he get in the corner ?45+%?

And do note that except Grundy you're mentioning characters that most reasonable players put in their potential top 7-8 , isn't there something wrong with that?Flash was a insta-top tier in my mind when i read the patch notes
 
1

187x

Warrior
godlessmode said:
What about Grundy corner damage? What about BA corner damage? MMH? Wonder Woman. Etc?

Most, if not all of these characters exceed Supes corner damage. What is the arbitrary acceptable corner damage in your opinion?
Click to expand...
supes has the highest corner damage in the game i believe. He gets easily 50-60-70% 1 bar in the corner with his best/main string f23. He also has one of the best if not the best corner control in the game. BA, Grundy corner game are no where near supermans lol
 
Belial

Belial

Kombatant
godlessmode said:
What about Grundy corner damage? What about BA corner damage? MMH? Wonder Woman. Etc?

Most, if not all of these characters exceed Supes corner damage. What is the arbitrary acceptable corner damage in your opinion?
Click to expand...
Im always amused by people excusing broken shit by the fact there is other broken shit.
Most characters corner damage barely exceed 40% , its almost twice less than superman, you are deluded.
 
godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
Crathen said:
What about the rest of the cast? Grundy corner damage makes sense , except the guaranteed grab imo he doesn't have good projectiles / jump arc he is designed to deal damage when he gets in. BA doesn't get up to 65% , WW damage is good no doubt but her corner game is based on OTG not raw damage , MMH how much can he get in the corner ?45+%?

And do note that except Grundy you're mentioning characters that most reasonable players put in their potential top 7-8 , isn't there something wrong with that?Flash was a insta-top tier in my mind when i read the patch notes
Click to expand...
I'm not speaking to the balance of the characters as a whole (It would take too long). My post was merely in response to someone saying that, "Superman does too much corner damage". They didn't quantify that it's because of his tools (if so which ones and why?). They didn't state anything further than "too much corner damage".


Lets run through the list.

Grundy can deal 120% situationaly in the corner and ~80% reliably.

WW (you are technically correct, her huge corner damage primarily comes from her OTG, however, unlike superman her OTG is safe, or to be accurate I believe its positive on block which allows her to continue her pressure) She also does more damage mid-screen without meter/trait. And does more damage in the corner without trait.

Black Adam - this character gets 53% mid screen which is more than superman does midscreen. In the corner he does slightly less unless you consider his resets/trait which allow him to out damage superman not in a single combo, but in a combo + unblockable gauranteed damage.

Flash is another good example, he can land ~60% combos mid screen where superman can only land them in the corner.

MMH can deal better mid screen damage than superman without resources. he gets >40% traitless and meterless. But more importantly he can end his combos in an ambiguous 50/50 cross-up (which is safe and allows him to do more damage with less risk).

I also just randomly picked characters for my first list. The intent being to spur some discussion as to why his damage is considered "unacceptable". He is far less threatening than a large portion of the cast in neutral. He is just easier to use.

As to the point about the top 7-8 being in my listed characters, of course they are. The criteria for being top X in this game is low resource to damage ratio, movement options, and then 50/50 tools (or a way to open the opponent up).
 
godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
Belial said:
Im always amused by people excusing broken shit by the fact there is other broken shit.
Most characters corner damage barely exceed 40% , its almost twice less than superman, you are deluded.
Click to expand...

So you believe that everyone should do no more than 40% in the corner? What about the huge amount of characters that exceed that mid-screen? Do you play this game?
 
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