Injustice Zoning

[Throwback]

WTF is this thread. This game forces you to play at every single range of the game, including fullscreen.

New players find that frustrating, ok sure. Sadly new new players to the FG find most effective tactics frustrating (try fighting against any scrub Sagat as a brand new player...) This is why FGs (and RTS, for that matter) are not massive like CoD. If you don't put in the work, you won't compete against any simple tactic be that high-low mixups, grab spam, KF slide, or DS zoning.

As for the zoning game being boring to play against...you literally have to block and dash twice to end it. So...zoning is boring because you can't jump mindlessly?

 

[jaym7018]

And we're getting a knee jerk reaction, so...

Oh, just one? Jade is shit too. Ermac got nerfed, now he's mediocre. I don't think any of the characters who got legitimately nerfed are even in the top 15 now bar Raiden.

We'll have to see. I don't trust NRS to bring a big nerf that keeps a character viable.

Then perhaps theres some merit to NRS reputatio of being bad at developing fighting games. My advice to NRS is the same Strokers are giving. Stop being scrubs and level the hell up.

 

[Bawlzhack]

99% of consumers dont know what an "oki set-up" mean. It is wrong when new players have do learn all of this while others just pick a zoning char and go easy mode. The game should feel fair and balance to new players, and as the OP said: "It is wrong to force this on newer players."

All the new players have to do is learn how to get in on DS, and theres plenty of information on how to. Even if they dont know what the internet is, they could just play against him a lot, or play as him, or play with a friend etc ,or even get bodied online while playing deathstroke, and they will know...

"Wow, i just had to crouch block walk?" (lol don't even tell me that you dont see a grenade coming from MB Assault rifle)

This is of course new player vs new player, idk too much about the pro scene with ds.

 

[RYX]

Then perhaps theres some merit to NRS reputatio of being bad at developing fighting games. My advice to NRS is the same Strokers are giving. Stop being scrubs and level the hell up.

It's not that at all. They listen to the wrong people, and that's their problem.

 

[jaym7018]

It's not that at all. They listen to the wrong people, and that's their problem.

Its not about listening to the wrong people or what you or anyone considers the right people. Its about NRS listening to everyone and then as the developer making the right decision. Listenimg to only the best of the best could lead to just as many mistakes as only listening to casual players.

 

[jaym7018]

Look no further than the NBAs Charlotte Bobcats if you wanna see what could happen when the best of the best is making all the decisions. (Michael Jordan reference).

 

[Throwback]

Fighting Deathstroke as Bane is pretty freaking tough. Walk in slow and don't miss a block or go to x3 venom to charge through, figure out how to stay in and not get caught for 9+ seconds until the debuff wears off, and then finally start doing some damage.

I'm a newb and I suck, but fighting a decent Deathstroke as Bane is hard. I'm sure as I get better, I'll be able to more effectively walk in and not get hit. Until then, I dread the match up because if he gets full screen right now, getting in is a shitty process.

I don't now anything about fighting games, nerfs, buffs, etc, but it's the only character that I dread playing against.

I'd be very surpised if you can't dash safely after blocking any ds gunshot. For proof check the DS boards, they've done frame data on the shots. Make sure you always block low, if DS does high GS then you get a much bigger window to dash (assuming high GS goes over bane crouch). If he only ever shoots low, you get a free jump forwards. It's better to wait for a high GS though.

 

[Apex Kano]

I have to say that, as a Catwoman main, I absolutely agree with the OP.

I just now is using Catwoman and she is amazing. I just wish her forward dash was like her back dash since her specials have so much negatives. This would help her close the gap on zoners. But I'm playing with her D,D 3 to pounce on the opponent on a successful dodge once I'm in range.

 

[FReaKoNaLeaSH]

I dunno I think a game having strong zoning shouldnt lead to all this complaining about it. If you want faster walk speeds and smaller stages theres sf4. If you want crazy jumps and assists to get in mvc theres a bunch of games out there that do zoning their way. Nrs wanted zoning to be strong arturo raved about it during testing. This is how they want it. You might as well go complain to capcom about ultras being a stupid come back mechanic and to take it out. Or make stages bigger or add projectile collision in mk.... this is a new ip. In this new game zoning is strong. End of story for me

 

[Hellion_96]

Bringing up kano isn't really the same People cried about kano cause he was unbeatable in lag. Deathstroke is even worse with a 10 times better netcode. Just wait and see when these top pro players get beat by a deathstroke on their level. Too many options to escape pressure not enough to get in simple as that. But with that being said I don't want him nerfed give it a couple months to decide.

 

[jaym7018]

I dunno I think a game having strong zoning shouldnt lead to all this complaining about it. If you want faster walk speeds and smaller stages theres sf4. If you want crazy jumps and assists to get in mvc theres a bunch of games out there that do zoning their way. Nrs wanted zoning to be strong arturo raved about it during testing. This is how they want it. You might as well go complain to capcom about ultras being a stupid come back mechanic and to take it out. Or make stages bigger or add projectile collision in mk.... this is a new ip. In this new game zoning is strong. End of story for me

Wasnt the point of this game to appeal to all communities?

 

[Apex Kano]

DS in general is not a problem if you know your character strengths and weakness. Catwoman is fast and can close the gap and pounce on DS, or use her Down Forward + 3 to sweep mid distance to catch him off guard. While she does the animation she ducks as well to avoid the gun fire. Harley has a "Reptile like ooze ball" she can fire off from her gun that will travel across the screen, plus her shot make her take a forward to keep pressure. Most fighters have a special that hits under you, so there is no reason to moan or grip. Hawk-girl owns DS by her flight trait and her ariel curb stomp. Just fly high and throw your mace, fake out your cross overs into a flight trait (in case he back up or do a flip special) and curb stomp. You can also dodge his gun shot and immediately from ducking go into a wing evade and press 3 to perform a flying kick. So many options to fight DS, don't see what's the problem?

 

[big_aug]

Throwback

I didn't realize I could dash after blocking without getting hit. I don't know why I didn't figure it out. I guess I tried dashing a few times, screwed it up, got shot, and assumed you couldn't do it. I was trying to walk forward and then hit down *facepalm*. I just practiced it in training mode, and dashing works great. I feel sorry for all those DS now.

 

[THTB]

Bringing up kano isn't really the same People cried about kano cause he was unbeatable in lag. Deathstroke is even worse with a 10 times better netcode. Just wait and see when these top pro players get beat by a deathstroke on their level. Too many options to escape pressure not enough to get in simple as that. But with that being said I don't want him nerfed give it a couple months to decide.

He won't be. Because people will actually learn how to play offense by then, and the defensive mechanics will be massively needed for zoners.

Nobody has realized how shitty projectiles are in the frame data department. And people still don't abuse a lot of the fucked up offensive shit yet. Hell, I learned a hilarious way to set up + frames off my best normal, while still allowing myself to get a solid combo if they don't block...and all it requires is me having meter that I likely will be able to get.

If there's anything playing GL taught me, most of you guys complaining about zoning likely have a fast dash to advance on. Play GL in matchups where the opponent can keep him out.

 

[PwnStar]

I dunno I think a game having strong zoning shouldnt lead to all this complaining about it. If you want faster walk speeds and smaller stages theres sf4. If you want crazy jumps and assists to get in mvc theres a bunch of games out there that do zoning their way. Nrs wanted zoning to be strong arturo raved about it during testing. This is how they want it. You might as well go complain to capcom about ultras being a stupid come back mechanic and to take it out. Or make stages bigger or add projectile collision in mk.... this is a new ip. In this new game zoning is strong. End of story for me

But that is isolating people who want to play the characters that can't deal with zoners. You're diluting the game if the roster isn't well rounded in what the characters strive to do. It is also stripping away other elements of the game that may pale in comparison due to lack of effectiveness by comparison.

 

[PwnStar]

I'd like to point out that most of my comments have become attacking really really bad stereotypical anti-nerf/buff arguments and not trying to emphasis zoning as broken in IGAU. I want slight buffs to forward movement and nerfs to knockback, but it's not the only solution.

That said, I really can't stress how bad these arguments are in every FGC. Everytime a complaint comes up, the 'vets' feel obligated to tell them they're lazy and to adapt, even if it ignores how bad it narrows the game play and depth. They defend preexisting over sights at the expense of better depth...once again SC4 was 8wayrun.com's fault for ignoring Hilde and demanding people to adapt to a shitty watered down version of the game to beat her. They called it skill, but I say it made the game less skillful and more focused on only very few aspects of the match.

TYM...don't be 8wayrun circa SC4 EVO. (Be that sexy SC5 8wayrun with a balanced roster and low tier EVO wins)

 

[miloPKL]

i intended to main deathstroke, im sick of playing footsies and rushdown and so on, so i wanted a nice zoning character this time around. deathstroke has a cool suit, he has cool guns, hes easy to use... but its so laughably easy to win just gun gun low gun iag g g lg iag iag... LMAO how can i lose this shit is golden!!

edit: in the end i needed a challenge and the KOTHs were getting mad so i only use DS against DS lol.

 

[miloPKL]

i mean i dont even feel like im playing the game with DS its just a cakewalk, it really is mindless. i reserve all opinion of buffing and nerfing but i just had to add that i cant even take myself seriously playing this character lol

 

[FReaKoNaLeaSH]

But that is isolating people who want to play the characters that can't deal with zoners. You're diluting the game if the roster isn't well rounded in what the characters strive to do. It is also stripping away other elements of the game that may pale in comparison due to lack of effectiveness by comparison.

but people who want to zone and have actual good zoning chars which other games leave out. Have that in spades here. If you could get in for free you are pretty much making rush down to strong and who cares about zoners. I mean look I agree that its hard to get in. But everyone has tools for it, and this is how they designed it specifically so zoning is strong and not shit.

 

[Nishaft]

Damn I might just re do it

I play as Flash and Shazam, and with Flash I can get through Superman's zoning pretty easily because of that speed force dodge thing. But with Shazam I feel like I have no options. Mercury Stream has vulnerability frames, and when Superman uses the horizontal laser as well as the ground laser (with and without EX) or jumps and does lasers with or without EX, I have no real options besides taking a fuckload of chip especially when his trait is active. And when I do get hit by EX, I get sent to the back of the damn stage. I might just switch to Flash permanently. Also, my friends and I play without interactables because they think it's cheap.

 

[Throwback]

I'd like to point out that most of my comments have become attacking really really bad stereotypical anti-nerf/buff arguments and not trying to emphasis zoning as broken in IGAU. I want slight buffs to forward movement and nerfs to knockback, but it's not the only solution.

That said, I really can't stress how bad these arguments are in every FGC. Everytime a complaint comes up, the 'vets' feel obligated to tell them they're lazy and to adapt, even if it ignores how bad it narrows the game play and depth. They defend preexisting over sights at the expense of better depth...once again SC4 was 8wayrun.com's fault for ignoring Hilde and demanding people to adapt to a shitty watered down version of the game to beat her. They called it skill, but I say it made the game less skillful and more focused on only very few aspects of the match.

TYM...don't be 8wayrun circa SC4 EVO. (Be that sexy SC5 8wayrun with a balanced roster and low tier EVO wins)

You complain that the vets are one-eyed but I say you are just as bad.

At least vets have spent time in training mode to see if there is in fact a legitimate way to beat certain tactics. SC4 Hilde was broken and people still knew it 2-3 years after the game was released. Vets (pros) were saying she was broken for a long time. I don't see that happening with DS, in fact anyone who has looked into it in any depth immediately realises he's fine.

The interesting thing about IGAU's gameplay is that being at fullscreen is not safe against zoners. That doesn't make the game any less skillful or focused, in fact I would argue the opposite.

 

[ShenChan]

Hello TYM

I am Soul Calibur V player, notably, I placed 9th at EVO 2012 and Top8 at MLG Raleigh 2012.
I am trying to play Injustice now and here are few issues I am concerned about.

NRS said they are aiming at new players, but it is unplayable to new players. Just frame punishment and timings, almost unexistant buffering windows, weird hitboxes and finally - severe disbalance. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying characters are not balanced. I am saying certain aspects of the game, such as specifically melee vs zoning - are unbalanced. In a bad way, that takes fun away from the game and makes it frustrating

The game favors zoning too much. At the same time, there are characters like Bane, Doomsday, Catwoman etc who do not zone.

There are a lot of ways to counter melee in the game, such as backdash, focus atacks (b+3/f+3 + MB), push block etc, but no ways to counter zoning. At the same time dash is not cancellable, movement is very slow.

Lets take a look at SF4 for a second. SF dash wasnt cancellable, walk speed was also slow, it also had focus atacks.
But
dash was really fast, fireballs were slow, focus costed no meter and game featured a lot of ways to counter fireballs
Injustice fireballs fly like jets, slow walk speed, slow dash, high jump arcs.

Take Catwoman for example, how do you approach? Only using MB-cDash, which is
1) Unsafe
2) Costs meter
3) Late armor

Playing against heavy zoners all your meter goes MB dash, or lucky focus, but thats it. Zoner can do nothing but backdash/walk back and bait your mistake. If there are interactibles around you're stuffed - you cant let them get to interactible (which further improve their zoning) but if you stay full screen - you're done.

For example Superman or Deathstroke. And I saw the video, that Tom Brady and REO recently put up.
To even get a chance at playing them with melee or weaker zoners you have to do what? Spent tons of time learning reaction to lazer, learn frametraps. You have to treat every blocked/ducked projectile differently as they provide different amount of blockstun, thus you need to react to everything well.
For me, the video "Overreacting to Deathstroke" from REO and TB actually showed how hard it is to get in and how many consecutive guesses you have to make and how every mistake puts you full screen away. It is wrong to force this on newer players.

Pardon me, this is my first post here and I have to agree with Belial to a certain extent.

My opinion of the game thus far is that it is heavily emphasized in zoning. With that in mind, melee characters which Belial mentioned have a tough time applying their offence. I know we can counter zoning like any other fighting games, it's totally possible and I'm not complaining about this. It is the simple fact that it takes alot more turns for a melee character to get in, let alone do damage which results in inconsistency at high level play. When melee characters eventually get in, the zoner probably has alot of meter built up along the way. Not to mention, the zoners usually get the first hit which awards them with 1 meter straight away, which results in 1 push block/ b/f3 MB etc which increases their defensive and escape options.

OMG it's Belial...

This game has a fuck ton of GTFO tech, but very bad get in tech. Back dash is invincible but forward is incredibly slow and unsafe (yeah it covers a lot of distance, but who cares when the animation is long enough to get repunished after most whiffs). We have a 1 meter push block. Push back in this game is huge on some hits. Walk speed is ass slow. Nearly all forward moving specials are unsafe. Clash always pushes full screen. Many MB versions of the attacks can punish the initial evade on reaction.

Now the current answer to zoners is to have a better zoner or a teleport/air dash + air attack. This works fine for some of the cast, but it makes some match ups too skewed in favor of zoning. There needs to be better tools to get in.

Simple changes like better walk speed, quicker forward dash (hell take out some of the distance...just seriously reduce the length of the animation), less knockback, invincibility on forward dash, etc... Not saying do all of these, but something needs to change. Whether or not zoning is beatable, it makes for shitty gameplay right now to over come. You are left with very non-character specific options and if you simply aren't equiped with better zoning or anti-zoning tech, you're kinda fucked.

Gotta agree as well. It's something we have to overcome. A good character will be someone who have the flexibility to handle all 3 kinds of playstyle (zoner, grappler and rushdown).


The game is new, and I'm enjoying the challenges it gives. Haters always hate, let's just do our best for this game.

 

[Emrod718]

While the game clearly has emphasis on zoning, and yes some people do have a valid point. There are tools to get in close, but the point is being missed, you need absolutely everything to go right to get in close, we're playing against other players not a training mode dummy. DS is the easiest to get past but there are other zoners that have alot more in their aresnal to keep you away and make sure it stays that way. I think it's to early to call for any nerfs, but a few buffs in walking speed or dashing might be all that is needed.

 

[Temjiin]

Belial Really enjoyed your mirror with RTD at MLG.

 

[Throwback]

While the game clearly has emphasis on zoning, and yes some people do have a valid point. There are tools to get in close, but the point is being missed, you need absolutely everything to go right to get in close, we're playing against other players not a training mode dummy. DS is the easiest to get past but there are other zoners that have alot more in their aresnal to keep you away and make sure it stays that way. I think it's to early to call for any nerfs, but a few buffs in walking speed or dashing might be all that is needed.

afaik, every single character can dash after blocking any of the game's projectiles (cyborg excepted - fix to block infinite incoming I'm sure). So how about you stop crying.

Nerfing zoning will make give all the zoners an uphill battle in 6 month's time when people really have their mobility options down.