Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

[omegapr1me99]

What is the most consistent way to punish Kung Lao's teleport?

Uppercut.

 

[Rude]

To excel with Cyber Kano in the nuetral, you need to be able to bait and whiff punish.

While the damage isn't as high as I'd like it to be, Kano can play footsies in Cyber with the best of them.

F4 is a quick, advancing move that you can use in a lot of ways. It is actually a better tool for whiff punishing than ball because it doesn't cost meter to initiate a combo and is very quick.

D4 leads to quite a few options. You can d4 on hit and run in for a throw or pressure string. You can d4 and it is blocked, try f4 if you suspect they may hit a button.

Or you could d4 into knife if they like to hit buttons after blocked d4s. The knife is + on hit.

You also have 2,f4 which the 2 by itself is + and the f4 has great pushback and leads to a hard knockdown on hit.

B23's priority could be better, but is still a great whiff punishing string provided you space yourself correctly and hit confirm.

All of Kano's combos put the opponent full screen or leave you very + on hit for guaranteed follow ups.

So before they can initiate offense they need to deal with knives, d4, f4, b23, b1 if they get jump happy, etc.

You use your knives for zoning and to condition them to approach unsafely.

MB Knives can beat every advancing armor move in the game provided you make the right read.

If you are pressured, you have armor on up ball, straight ball(combo starter), and laser(combo extender/starter).

Reversal up ball can punish a lot of difficult to punish moves due to awkward blockstun. Meaning sometimes conventional punishes miss due to how block stun can throw off your timing.

To do well with Kano you need to be on point with your spacing and reads. And yes, you do need to work harder than your opponent most of the time due to the set play nature of this game.

But none of the tools i described are tools of a low tier character. I didn't even talk about b31 conditioning as Youphemism covered it.

And yes, the risk/reward of zoning with Kano isn't always in his favor, but that is moreba problem with zoning in MK X than just Kano.

Simply put, if you want to run and apply 50/50 mix ups, if you do not want to slow the pace of the game down and footsie your way to victory...


...Then you should play a different character. Cybernetic Kano is not for you.

 

[Youphemism]

I agree, I would rather NRS do something like make erron black 12211 string not be special cancelable during the last few hits because let's face it, it's not a 50/50 that can be escaped at all. I thought they allowed gaps in strings and armored attacks to deal with situations like that, but that string doesn't have a gap in it. There is a gap after 122 though for both options. Sorry for the rant but that one string is what makes the erron black matchup frustrating for me. I mean he always has meter because of it too . Anyway back to the subject, I mentioned this because I'd rather see a fix like this than Kano having something just as abusable or broken himself.

It's 21122 lol, wrong way round

To excel with Cyber Kano in the nuetral, you need to be able to bait and whiff punish.

While the damage isn't as high as I'd like it to be, Kano can play footsies in Cyber with the best of them.

F4 is a quick, advancing move that you can use in a lot of ways. It is actually a better tool for whiff punishing than ball because it doesn't cost meter to initiate a combo and is very quick.

D4 leads to quite a few options. You can d4 on hit and run in for a throw or pressure string. You can d4 and it is blocked, try f4 if you suspect they may hit a button.

Or you could d4 into knife if they like to hit buttons after blocked d4s. The knife is + on hit.

You also have 2,f4 which the 2 by itself is + and the f4 has great pushback and leads to a hard knockdown on hit.

B23's priority could be better, but is still a great whiff punishing string provided you space yourself correctly and hit confirm.

All of Kano's combos put the opponent full screen or leave you very + on hit for guaranteed follow ups.

So before they can initiate offense they need to deal with knives, d4, f4, b23, b1 if they get jump happy, etc.

You use your knives for zoning and to condition them to approach unsafely.

MB Knives can beat every advancing armor move in the game provided you make the right read.

If you are pressured, you have armor on up ball, straight ball(combo starter), and laser(combo extender/starter).

Reversal up ball can punish a lot of difficult to punish moves due to awkward blockstun. Meaning sometimes conventional punishes miss due to how block stun can throw off your timing.

To do well with Kano you need to be on point with your spacing and reads. And yes, you do need to work harder than your opponent most of the time due to the set play nature of this game.

But none of the tools i described are tools of a low tier character. I didn't even talk about b31 conditioning as Youphemism covered it.

And yes, the risk/reward of zoning with Kano isn't always in his favor, but that is moreba problem with zoning in MK X than just Kano.

Simply put, if you want to run and apply 50/50 mix ups, if you do not want to slow the pace of the game down and footsie your way to victory...


...Then you should play a different character. Cybernetic Kano is not for you.

T H A N K Y O U

 

[ando1184]

It's 21122 lol, wrong way round

T H A N K Y O U

Oh, my bad lol thanks for the correction. You see people, this string drives us mad

 

[SaltShaker]

So I finally ran into a really really good Johnny Cage player at a local and the humbling was too real.

So I saw him playing during the tournament and he was really good, but I was sitting there cocky saying to myself, "eh yea he has skills but I'm about to teach him a lesson". So we meet up in Winner's Finals and I of course go with Cyber Kano and he picks A-List Cage. At this point I'm already thinking about strategies to fight Sonya in Grand Finals. Match starts. Got handed a 1-3. A few of the usuals were looking at me like wtf happened lol. I'm still feeling it.

For sure my overconfidence to this new player and MU had some impact, but I didn't realize the amount of tools Cage can use at range and up close in this MU. Those A-List cancels when on point are too real up close, and he is much tougher to zone than I thought with those stronger mid fireballs, air fireball, Ex balls, and EX Kick. I'm taking back everything I thought of this MU. I invited him to bring his Cage by my friends house where we practice this week so hopefully I'll have some input on this MU after.

I had to re-read all of Rude's pointers in this MU lol. If anyone has extra input feel free to throw it in.

 

[Rude]

So I finally ran into a really really good Johnny Cage player at a local and the humbling was too real.

So I saw him playing during the tournament and he was really good, but I was sitting there cocky saying to myself, "eh yea he has skills but I'm about to teach him a lesson". So we meet up in Winner's Finals and I of course go with Cyber Kano and he picks A-List Cage. At this point I'm already thinking about strategies to fight Sonya in Grand Finals. Match starts. Got handed a 1-3. A few of the usuals were looking at me like wtf happened lol. I'm still feeling it.

For sure my overconfidence to this new player and MU had some impact, but I didn't realize the amount of tools Cage can use at range and up close in this MU. Those A-List cancels when on point are too real up close, and he is much tougher to zone than I thought with those stronger mid fireballs, air fireball, Ex balls, and EX Kick. I'm taking back everything I thought of this MU. I invited him to bring his Cage by my friends house where we practice this week so hopefully I'll have some input on this MU after.

I had to re-read all of Rude's pointers in this MU lol. If anyone has extra input feel free to throw it in.

Told you.

When the execution catches up, people will see that A-List > Stunt Double.

You can zone him, but you have to be very careful. You can make Reversal low fireballs whiff, even EX ones, but running forward a little and doing d4.

I would do this to frustrate the Cage player into advancing forward into your footsie range.

Do not block low. You will die. Take the poke.

 

[SaltShaker]

Told you.

When the execution catches up, people will see that A-List > Stunt Double.

You can zone him, but you have to be very careful. You can make Reversal low fireballs whiff, even EX ones, but running forward a little and doing d4.

I would do this to frustrate the Cage player into advancing forward into your footsie range.

Do not block low. You will die. Take the poke.

You called it dead on. I was skeptical until now. Most the Cage exp I've had was from Stunt Double with some A-List sprinkled in but never a true A-Lister like this weekend. Stunt Double never felt like too much of a problem, but this was something else.

Up close I need to learn what's going on with those cancels. They were popping up after all kinds of pokes and strings. When I thought I could interrupt I was hit. When I tried to continue blocking I would be poked, and if I tried to block the low poke full combos would come, and this isn't counting the occasional grab. I felt as helpless as blocking Erron! Then when I tried zoning at some points he can match it.

Ugly matches and I'm glad to have won one of them at least. I'm not sure exactly "how" to figure this MU out, as it might just be a bad one. In no sections of match spacing did I see or feel like there was an advantage. Either even at certain distances, and disadvantage everywhere else. I'm gonna have to really grind this one.

 

[Rude]

You called it dead on. I was skeptical until now. Most the Cage exp I've had was from Stunt Double with some A-List sprinkled in but never a true A-Lister like this weekend. Stunt Double never felt like too much of a problem, but this was something else.

Up close I need to learn what's going on with those cancels. They were popping up after all kinds of pokes and strings. When I thought I could interrupt I was hit. When I tried to continue blocking I would be poked, and if I tried to block the low poke full combos would come, and this isn't counting the occasional grab. I felt as helpless as blocking Erron! Then when I tried zoning at some points he can match it.

Ugly matches and I'm glad to have won one of them at least. I'm not sure exactly "how" to figure this MU out, as it might just be a bad one. In no sections of match spacing did I see or feel like there was an advantage. Either even at certain distances, and disadvantage everywhere else. I'm gonna have to really grind this one.

Coincidentally enough, one of my offline training partners mains A-List. I'll have him break down cancel pressure and I'll pm you.

Don't go to the Cage forums. Bad info abounds.

 

[SaltShaker]

Coincidentally enough, one of my offline training partners mains A-List. I'll have him break down cancel pressure and I'll pm you.

Don't go to the Cage forums. Bad info abounds.

Hell yea thanks man. Can't be having these unknown people take me out at the local. Bad for business! Lol

 

[Youphemism]

Here's some footage of my Cybernetic Kano playing Sun God Kotal Kahn (2:13), Tempest and Buzz Saw Kung Lao (49:31) and Impostor Shinnok (1:08:21).
Disclaimer: This tournament took place online and it was really laggy against most of them. As such there are TONS of missed punishes, misspaced trip guards (mostly against Kotal) and general bullshit from both sides (lag tactics: mashing pokes, continued pressure after being minus, etc) but there are some good examples of playing the matchups in there so feel free to have a look.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

Currently struggling with Quan Chi, (Summoner and Warlock) Mileena, (Piercing, Ravenous) and Sub Zero (Grandmaster)

Does anyone have any tips for fighting these guys? Like Punishes and what not to do?

I play Cutthroat BTW

Condition the Warlock Quan to use portal kick by throwing knives at him when you can, run in on a read portal kick for a full combo with f2. Quan's aerial attacks are too good so I would just AA him with upball or uppercut. Move forward, AA him, corner him. Backdash or armor when you block a string cancelled into ex rune.

Subby's overhead can be punished with upball if he does it too close (b1 in Cyber/Commando). I think holding on to your meter against Sub is a viable tactic, punishing clone cancels with an X-ray for the win is sweet. If he catches you with the clone or ice ball (ball shouldn't happen unless it's online) you'll just be eating a meager 2,4,2 into f4,2 xx slide combo so I wouldn't necessarily break. Stay at a range where you can instantly shatter the clone with a knife when he does it, without being punished by Sub. Basically don't go closer than d4-range from the clone so he can't 50/50 you from behind the clone if he manages to put it on the screen. Don't corner yourself by chucking knives and walking back too much, blocking or ducking the iceball allows Sub to move forward so try to jump it once in a while. Clone toss can be neutral jumped or back jumped at around almost full screen to full screen.

You can throw a knife at Mileena safely from fullscreen to test her reactions, if she chooses to repeatedly low profile in Piercing with low sai you can set up an ex aerial Kano ball by throwing a knife then committing to a forward jump then just ex'ing the aerial Kano ball, this is interruptible and heavily punishable if the Mileena player sees it coming, knows Kano and just goes for a Neutral jump after low sai, but chances are they will just block low once they see you leave the ground. Do not throw knives at roll distance which is around 3/4 screen. I think in this MU you should just forget about moving backward in trying to bait something and just keep moving forward through Milly's zoning so she doesn't build too much meter.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

So I finally ran into a really really good Johnny Cage player at a local and the humbling was too real....

...If anyone has extra input feel free to throw it in.

upball after blocking 1,1,3, it'll be a punish and interrupt the nut punch follow-up as well. Upball also punishes delayed nut punch. If the Cage player tries to test your fuzzy guarding by doing 1,1 into f2,4 then you have enough time to twitch duck and see that the low didn't come out, then just armor the Cage player. If he does a faster move than f2 after 1,1 though, you will not be able to react with armor on time and he will most likely catch you with another 1,1.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

Kano's overhead in Cutthroat is so shitty due to range with characters that have even an average wake up game, you have to be sitting on their nuts every time in order to ensure it doesn't wiff, yet, even then sometimes it still wiffs.

Kano's faster combo string 112 is great when you are in adequate range, more time then not the range is a huge issue and I do not find it a very reliable punish option, especially against Cassie who has very safe combo strings from what I can tell and most of her moves will push her out of range off block in order to make use of the 112 string.

Kano's 212 combo starter string is very readable, very unsafe, and gets beat out by most of Cassie's typical normals.

The neutral game is awful because jp again, has no range, is very inconsistent, and isn't reliable at all unless you have them in the corner. Even that doesn't mean much, it just seems to be a smidge better.

I mean, why does Kano have T-Rex arms? Honestly, they couldn't at least give him a little more range, his kit is already shit, you have to work super hard to win with Kano. I did not have this much problem with this character pre-patch, the nerfs he has been given has pounded him into the ground. IMO

I am ranting, obviously, but I am typing this because I don't want to give up on Kano. I want to be wrong on everything I just typed, so I am hoping that someone will show me the light at the end of the tunnel before I start looking for a new main.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Condition someone to block, then insta run into 50/50 after hitting them when you know they are gonna block, best way to set up the 50/50. Kanoball on hit allows you to "sit on their nuts" on wake up.

use upball to punish where 1,1,2 doesn't have the range or f2/f4 is not fast enough. Once someone expects at least an upball punish and is most likely to block you can attempt to insta run into 50/50 if you don't want to take your guaranteed 10%.

You are not supposed to throw out the whole f2,1,2 string. You commit to f2,1 then hit confirm into the last hit. Nothing you do is readable unless you are being too aggressive and predictable. Cutthroat's corner game is insane, it does mean much.

Kano is not supposed to be an aerial character anyway, forget about going in with JIPs, you can only get away with those online or against bad players. You will lose an air trade against pretty much the entire cast. let your opponent do the jumping, bait them into doing it by playing just outside jump distance if you can. Jump only on a wake-up crossover or a hard read/anticipation. Run into normals when you see the opening instead of going airborne.

 

[MsMiharo]

How do you all feel about choosing Commando for corner/pressure heavy opponents? I've had some success vs Jax because wake up Power Bomb is so strong when put in the corner. Also you can parry his dash punch and some of his strings.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I've been maining commando since day 1, but in the long run I will most likely switch to CT or cyber (most likely CT) for most matchups and switch to commando if I know it's a matchup with lots of parryable strings or defensive/offensive options that I like....or I might just be stubborn and YOLO commando the whole life of the game (unless tremor is gdlike)

 

[MsMiharo]

I've been maining commando since day 1, but in the long run I will most likely switch to CT or cyber (most likely CT) for most matchups and switch to commando if I know it's a matchup with lots of parryable strings or defensive/offensive options that I like....or I might just be stubborn and YOLO commando the whole life of the game (unless tremor is gdlike)

Commando is strong IMO but the others are more versatile. I feel like this is his "armor" variation the same way that Warlock is the only Quan with a viable wake up.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

idk, wakeup EX ball is all the armor you really need with the other tools I think. The others are definitely more versatile but I've been chippin away at my commando gameplay and, like i've said before, his relative predictability, I think, is a large part of why he's powerful.

 

[MsMiharo]

Which matchups do you feel favor Kano? I have very limited experience so far but I feel like:

* Takeda is good for Cyber. The range is not really an issue considering your b2. Might have changed now with Takeda buff though.
* Jax is hard but not bad. Your knives in both Cyber and Commando are a good tool for keeping him out. His fast pokes are an issue but in commando good reads with parry and grab help you out. Air Kano ball deals well with his ranged options.
* Scorpion ughhhhhhhhhhhhh
* Cyber does well against GM sub, it's easy to keep the clone down midscreen and you can play footsies with your b2, f4. Also knives are so much faster than ice ball.
* Quan Cheese is hard.

 

[X-xAvOk-X]

Which matchups do you feel favor Kano? I have very limited experience so far but I feel like:

* Takeda is good for Cyber. The range is not really an issue considering your b2. Might have changed now with Takeda buff though.
* Jax is hard but not bad. Your knives in both Cyber and Commando are a good tool for keeping him out. His fast pokes are an issue but in commando good reads with parry and grab help you out. Air Kano ball deals well with his ranged options.
* Scorpion ughhhhhhhhhhhhh
* Cyber does well against GM sub, it's easy to keep the clone down midscreen and you can play footsies with your b2, f4. Also knives are so much faster than ice ball.
* Quan Cheese is hard.

I think Quan Chi isn't that bad against him, you have to change your estrategy and become more rushdown so I think Cutthroat also Cybernetic can deal with him

 

[ando1184]

Which matchups do you feel favor Kano? I have very limited experience so far but I feel like:

* Takeda is good for Cyber. The range is not really an issue considering your b2. Might have changed now with Takeda buff though.
* Jax is hard but not bad. Your knives in both Cyber and Commando are a good tool for keeping him out. His fast pokes are an issue but in commando good reads with parry and grab help you out. Air Kano ball deals well with his ranged options.
* Scorpion ughhhhhhhhhhhhh
* Cyber does well against GM sub, it's easy to keep the clone down midscreen and you can play footsies with your b2, f4. Also knives are so much faster than ice ball.
* Quan Cheese is hard.

Jax is ok as long as you stay out of the corner, you can bait his dash punches, and backdash his advancing punches. Vs scorpion you have to play extremely patient because a bad read can get tele punished and hellfire scorp can use flame aura defensively as well as offensively since it's hitbox is gigantic and has 65 active frames. Hellfire can literally land a combo from starting aura, dish out 38%, aura ends and finish the combo into activating aura and dishing out another 30% in chip damage that must be taken unless you have block breaker. So yeh I hear where you're coming from in that one lol. Vs Quan chi I think it's hard until you get in and once in you have to respect his air attacks and stay grounded. I've tried challenging him A2A and always got beat. His jmp1 and njp are way too good.

 

[MsMiharo]

Jax is ok as long as you stay out of the corner, you can bait his dash punches, and backdash his advancing punches. Vs scorpion you have to play extremely patient because a bad read can get tele punished and hellfire scorp can use flame aura defensively as well as offensively since it's hitbox is gigantic and has 65 active frames. Hellfire can literally land a combo from starting aura, dish out 38%, aura ends and finish the combo into activating aura and dishing out another 30% in chip damage that must be taken unless you have block breaker. So yeh I hear where you're coming from in that one lol. Vs Quan chi I think it's hard until you get in and once in you have to respect his air attacks and stay grounded. I've tried challenging him A2A and always got beat. His jmp1 and njp are way too good.

I don't play cutthroat but I get a feeling he might be the best vs quan due to strong oki. Quan has to hold that 50/50 basically. Now if only the OH didn't have shit range. Oh one can dream.

 

[ando1184]

I don't play cutthroat but I get a feeling he might be the best vs quan due to strong oki. Quan has to hold that 50/50 basically. Now if only the OH didn't have shit range. Oh one can dream.

My thoughts exactly, cutthroats OH needs a bigger hitbox imo because Kano literally has to rub his balls against his opponent to make b1 connect

 

[MsMiharo]

My thoughts exactly, cutthroats OH needs a bigger hitbox imo because Kano literally has to rub his balls against his opponent to make b1 connect

Yeah. The thing with CT is that if he gets you to the corner it's GG next round please. But midscreen he is not threatening unless the player has good footsies.

 

[ando1184]

Yeah. The thing with CT is that if he gets you to the corner it's GG next round please. But midscreen he is not threatening unless the player has good footsies.

Well Kano is universally equipped with good footsies so I think he's solid in that department. It's just conditioning the opponent and making sure your OH doesn't whiff that's the issue midscreen. If the OH's hitbox was larger than that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Youphemism]

Maybe we should list characters/variations and compile a collective list of good and bad matchups for Kano's variations?