Anti- Zoners in MKX?

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker They have said numerous times the variation systems goal is to allow people different ways to play their favorite characters. It doesn't look like anybody (except maybe reptile and ermac) has the same type of basic playstyle in all three variations. Not grapplers, not zoners, not even rushdown.

Yea I know. That's probably part of the reason I'm so drawn to Ermac this time around. Ermac's Spectral doesn't look to zone heavy, but if he has Magneto-esque set ups and pressure I'll be more than happy. I wish they didn't go this route but I understand why they did. It makes sense and adds more options in battle for loyalist.

The only thing I'm still hoping for is that a guy like Kenshi has buffed up variations to enforce his zoning across all 3. Like a Reptile set of variations. Even if he has a "sword" variation let him keep the majority of his specials in it. Though it's becoming a very slim chance that will happen.

I hope he is at least the Cassie of zoners. Two variations prop up her rushdown capabilities, and a 3rd is a missle that pops up for juggles and helps her get in while also helping counter zoning. Fingers crossed for a reverse scenario for Kenshi.

A couple of other characters have this type of setup but not a zoner. It's the single thing I'm upset about.

My next two years will literally be decided on Kenshi's reveal. It'll either be A) Kenshi hands down. Or B) let me explore Kenshi/Ermac/Erron/Takeda.

 

[trufenix]

I disagree.

There is plenty of characters which have variations that looks like a rushdown type with insane options but i'm yet to see ANY character which looks amazing in zoning. High hopes for my boy Kenshi.

I agree with @SaltShaker at this point this thread should be titled "Where is zoning".

Us grapplers are just as worried at the lack of effective command grabs and armor. Eveyrbody who plays every playstyle is suffering this same anxiety for months but this kind of alarmist no characters fit me thinking benefits no one. There are at least 75 characters in this game, what your'e looking for is undoubtedly in there.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I've said it a million times, but I feel like NRS purposefully toned down the zoning due to not being able to cancel dashes with block and dashing/running costing stamina. This game will be about patience and mostly walking in the future. That is my opinion.

You are missing the biggest factor in all this -- the run button. The speed of what that button allows you to do will likely lead to the reverse; fast gameplay with tons of gambits and people attempting to get the jump on each other.

I'd expect more of a UMK3 pace from top-level players than a SF4 pace.

 

[trufenix]

My next two years will literally be decided on Kenshi's reveal. It'll either be A) Kenshi hands down. Or B) let me explore Kenshi/Ermac/Erron/Takeda.

Whats wrong with Kung Jin?

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

What is funny is Liu fucking Kang came out of left field, stole my heart, and looks to be the best zoning character so far.

By "zoning" I am not refering to only his projecile game (which is amazing btw) but his ability to control space and tempo which is what I consider a "zoner."

Also @SaltShaker my hype for Erron Black died when I rewatched the stream for the 15th time. Mark my words Erron Black will get abso-fucking-lutley wrecked by teleporters. His 3 gunsots backward if basically a free combo for a birdish character with a teleport (Scorpion/Kung Lao) and his caltrops will be useless vs teleporters and a character with their own zoning tools.(Liu Kang/Mileena).

Shinnok looked like total ass. That is all I have to say about that.

 

[Prinz]

I want a charcter to have Jade's flash, + glow, but tweaked accordingly. Goddamit NRS.
Btw, why Takeda has a teleport boggles me. Batgirl 2.0 -_-

 

[SaltShaker]

What is funny is Liu fucking Kang came out of left field, stole my heart, and looks to be the best zoning character so far.

By "zoning" I am not refering to only his projecile game (which is amazing btw) but his ability to control space and tempo which is what I consider a "zoner."

Also @SaltShaker my hype for Erron Black died when I rewatched the stream for the 15th time. Mark my words Erron Black will get abso-fucking-lutley wrecked by teleporters. His 3 gunsots backward if basically a free combo for a birdish character with a teleport (Scorpion/Kung Lao) and his caltrops will be useless vs teleporters and a character with their own zoning tools.(Liu Kang/Mileena).

Shinnok looked like total ass. That is all I have to say about that.

Haha once again we agree! I rewatched the reveals last night a few times and then in the morning to be sure. My hype dwindled considerably.

You're dead on. From the specials they showed, I don't see how he'll get pressure away once a teleporter gets in. He seems more of a "situational" character, not a "deal with most of the cast" character. I can see him giving some chars fits and getting absolutely wrecked by others.

Shinnok... Man. I was so hype. I was so so hype... I mean, it's only pre-release speculation at this point but still, still...

I'm strongly looking at Takeda's Ryu and Lasher variations, Ermac's MoS for Day 1, and possibly Kung Jin.

Whats wrong with Kung Jin?

Good call.

Sometimes I hate including him and put him at the end of my "going to try first list" because of Green Arrow. I know it has nothing to do with Jin himself but that GA taste is still sour. Possibly he could better than GA in Ancestral and NW in Staff, but it's too recent in my memory to get hype over him.

Arrows that drain 85% of a meter bar in 2 hits, some of the longest ranged normals in the game, dirty setups in Shaolin? Massive potential there.

Other than Kenshi himself, if Kung Jin is a strong character, strong as in not getting punished for simply sticking out a normal, then he may rise up and steal the spotlight for me.

Sleeper character for sure, and the only character I'd revealed so far that I'd truly say has all 3 variations focused as zoning or footsies exclusively.

 

[SaltShaker]

Us grapplers are just as worried at the lack of effective command grabs and armor. Eveyrbody who plays every playstyle is suffering this same anxiety for months but this kind of alarmist no characters fit me thinking benefits no one. There are at least 75 characters in this game, what your'e looking for is undoubtedly in there.

I think the only grappler without an anti-zoning tool is Ferra/Torr that I've noticed.

-Kano has knives, EX armor ball, and air ball in Commando.
-Kotal has that War God weapon slam we saw yesterday, as well as a fast spell cast healing in Sun God.
-If Jason/Goro/Jax have grappling variations I'm sure they'll have something also to deal with zoning.

Ferra/Torr is probably the only one that I can see being helplessly zoned out. But it's also the character we've seen the least of so who knows how that will even hold up.

 

[Immortal]

Us grapplers are just as worried at the lack of effective command grabs and armor. Eveyrbody who plays every playstyle is suffering this same anxiety for months but this kind of alarmist no characters fit me thinking benefits no one. There are at least 75 characters in this game, what your'e looking for is undoubtedly in there.

I really don't see how grapplers are in the same boat as zoners in MK X. SaltShaker already said everything i wanted to say about it:

I think the only grappler without an anti-zoning tool is Ferra/Torr that I've noticed.

-Kano has knives, EX armor ball, and air ball in Commando.
-Kotal has that War God weapon slam we saw yesterday, as well as a fast spell cast healing in Sun God.
-If Jason/Goro/Jax have grappling variations I'm sure they'll have something also to deal with zoning.

Ferra/Torr is probably the only one that I can see being helplessly zoned out. But it's also the character we've seen the least of so who knows how that will even hold up.

You made however one valid point - there is Kung Jin but to be honest he's for me Arrow + NW from IGAU, both characters which i really didn't like in that game.

And don't get me wrong im not negative or anything like that towards MK X. Im hype as hell overall, just have (imo) valid concerns about lack of zoning + im worried that they could stripped Kenshi from hes great zoning tools that he had in MK9 etc... Time will tell. Overall without questions im hyped for MK X.

 

[xWEBSx]

Erron Black looks like TP fodder at this point, but I believe it is going to be all dependent on his frames and advantage, he can draw out a teleport, block it, possibly counter with anti-air smoke bomb, into combo, caltrops, create space, and repeat. The thing that surprises me the most about Erron... And I hope I am wrong..does he have a natural, not super or multiple gunshot? The Variety, (Stryker-esque)? If not that mast be his biggest downfall.. Too much flash, not enough base utility.

 

[SaltShaker]

I really don't see how grapplers are in the same boat as zoners in MK X. SaltShaker already said everything i wanted to say about it:



You made however one valid point - there is Kung Jin but to be honest he's for me Arrow + NW from IGAU, both characters which i really didn't like in that game.

And don't get me wrong im not negative or anything like that towards MK X. Im hype as hell overall, just have (imo) valid concerns about lack of zoning + im worried that they could stripped Kenshi from hes great zoning tools that he had in MK9 etc... Time will tell. Overall without questions im hyped for MK X.

Same with me. I didn't like NW much and I absolutely hated everything about Green Arrow, so when I see Kung Jin I'm way less hype than I should be about his moveset. It appears to be massive upgrades, but the Injustice taste is too fresh to get too excited about him pre-release. Though he just may creep into the picture if he can reach the potential they never did.

I haven't been as hype for a game since TTT2, so I definitely hear ya, but the zoning concerns are real. 20 characters in and maybe 1 or 2 max decent looking zoners shown. While other playstyles characters look beastly. I feel at this point it's all up to Kenshi. Cyrax/Freddy/Kabal are all gone, Sonya is yet to be shown, and Kung Lao looks as strong as ever so if Kenshi is stripped down I'll be convinced that it was a blatant attempt at making MKX less zoner friendly. I don't mind if one or two moves is slightly altered but his core zoning game needs to remain strong and his variations need to enhance his zoning, not replace moves for other ones.

Erron Black looks like TP fodder at this point, but I believe it is going to be all dependent on his frames and advantage, he can draw out a teleport, block it, possibly counter with anti-air smoke bomb, into combo, caltrops, create space, and repeat. The thing that surprises me the most about Erron... And I hope I am wrong..does he have a natural, not super or multiple gunshot? The Variety, (Stryker-esque)? If not that mast be his biggest downfall.. Too much flash, not enough base utility.

Yea my hype faded after re-watching Erron. He doesn't really have a "get off" move, wake up game looks crap, and he looks slower than I thought he would be. None of his regular moves were multi-hitting shots. He didn't even have just a regular gunshot ala Cassie. His Gunslinger stance move had some multi hitters and Marksmen had the 3 shot, but that's it. His frames better be the real deal for me to play him.

 

[trufenix]

I think the only grappler without an anti-zoning tool is Ferra/Torr that I've noticed.

-Kano has knives, EX armor ball, and air ball in Commando.
-Kotal has that War God weapon slam we saw yesterday, as well as a fast spell cast healing in Sun God.
-If Jason/Goro/Jax have grappling variations I'm sure they'll have something also to deal with zoning.

Ferra/Torr is probably the only one that I can see being helplessly zoned out. But it's also the character we've seen the least of so who knows how that will even hold up.

Like you and your zoners, I don't want to play a rush down or counter zoning character who just happens to have a grab. I want to play an actual grappler.
-Mustard (I think) posted a write up that says Kano's grabs are only unblockable / armored with meter. I mained Shazam, useless grabs without meter are an issue.
-War God (Sword) Kotal doesn't have command grabs, only Sun God does and he has to land three (and sacrifice health recovery) to max out its damage. I also played Grundy, having to choose between damage and utility on every grab fucking sucks.
-Mileena has a grabby variation too, but that seems to be her softest variation, as does F/T's grab centric Lackey.

Playing devil's avocado with anyone else unrevealed is no different from me saying the same about them and zoning. Predator could be your master zoner and Tremor could be my master grappler (which would suck because I do not want to buy him). Or it could be someone already revealed cause this is all theory fighter. Either way, saying the sky is falling cause Derek and Tyler don't know how to zone is just going to get Scorpion nerfed again.

 

[xWEBSx]

Same with me. I didn't like NW much and I absolutely hated everything about Green Arrow, so when I see Kung Jin I'm way less hype than I should be about his moveset. It appears to be massive upgrades, but the Injustice taste is too fresh to get too excited about him pre-release. Though he just may creep into the picture if he can reach the potential they never did.

I haven't been as hype for a game since TTT2, so I definitely hear ya, but the zoning concerns are real. 20 characters in and maybe 1 or 2 max decent looking zoners shown. While other playstyles characters look beastly. I feel at this point it's all up to Kenshi. Cyrax/Freddy/Kabal are all gone, Sonya is yet to be shown, and Kung Lao looks as strong as ever so if Kenshi is stripped down I'll be convinced that it was a blatant attempt at making MKX less zoner friendly. I don't mind if one or two moves is slightly altered but his core zoning game needs to remain strong and his variations need to enhance his zoning, not replace moves for other ones.



Yea my hype faded after re-watching Erron. He doesn't really have a "get off" move, wake up game looks crap, and he looks slower than I thought he would be. None of his regular moves were multi-hitting shots. He didn't even have just a regular gunshot ala Cassie. His Gunslinger stance move had some multi hitters and Marksmen had the 3 shot, but that's it. His frames better be the real deal for me to play him.

I have to re-watch.. Will edit once I'm done..

 

[M2Dave]

Shinnok looked like total ass. That is all I have to say about that.

"Necromancer" Shinnok seems to be the most promising zoning character thus far. He has a very good forward and backdash, an armored MB special move that leads to a small combo, and various projectiles that either appear right next to the opponent or out of the ground. The frame data on these projectiles will determine whether Shinnok is actually a good zoning character or not, but on paper he has all the necessary tools.

 

[Immortal]

Like you and your zoners, I don't want to play a rush down or counter zoning character who just happens to have a grab. I want to play an actual grappler.
-Mustard (I think) posted a write up that says Kano's grabs are only unblockable / armored with meter. I mained Shazam, useless grabs without meter are an issue.
-War God (Sword) Kotal doesn't have command grabs, only Sun God does and he has to land three (and sacrifice health recovery) to max out its damage. I also played Grundy, having to choose between damage and utility on every grab fucking sucks.
-Mileena has a grabby variation too, but that seems to be her softest variation, as does F/T's grab centric Lackey.

Playing devil's avocado with anyone else unrevealed is no different from me saying the same about them and zoning. Predator could be your master zoner and Tremor could be my master grappler (which would suck because I do not want to buy him). Or it could be someone already revealed cause this is all theory fighter. Either way, saying the sky is falling cause Derek and Tyler don't know how to zone is just going to get Scorpion nerfed again.

To be clear Scorpion was over-nerfed coz everybody was whining about him, mostly top players. And nobody is saying that "sky is falling" this is just a normal discussion, where we have concerns which looks valid based on what we seen so far but obviously can be completely irrelevant when the game actually comes out coz like you said Darek and Tyler while funny at times aren't really that great at the game and beside that we don't know the actual frame data etc.. (longest sentence ever) So yea its just theory crafting at this point but hey atleast we talk like people here and don't create 10000000 useless mostly stupid threads like many here.

 

[Barrogh]

-Mustard (I think) posted a write up that says Kano's grabs are only unblockable / armored with meter.

I mained Shazam, useless grabs without meter are an issue.

Considering that I could just treat them as low/overhead with weird hitboxes for what they are and a bunch of additional drawbacks from their throw status... And all that in a game that didn't know a difference between ducking and blocking low... Yeah.

I also played Grundy, having to choose between damage and utility on every grab fucking sucks.

Granted, health chain didn't have bad buff, but when it comes to defence one, I hear you.

-Mileena has a grabby variation too, but that seems to be her softest variation, as does F/T's grab centric Lackey.

See above as to what I think of those grabs

"Necromancer" Shinnok seems to be the most promising zoning character thus far. He has a very good forward and backdash, an armored MB special move that leads to a small combo, and various projectiles that either appear right next to the opponent or out of the ground. The frame data on these projectiles will determine whether Shinnok is actually a good zoning character or not, but on paper he has all the necessary tools.

I hope so. His vanilla tools don't quite scream "zoner" to me.

Ability to interrupt his groung skull cascade is nice, but that's about it. It costs meter though and may still be a bill if your opponent is patient.

 

[SaltShaker]

Like you and your zoners, I don't want to play a rush down or counter zoning character who just happens to have a grab. I want to play an actual grappler.
-Mustard (I think) posted a write up that says Kano's grabs are only unblockable / armored with meter. I mained Shazam, useless grabs without meter are an issue.
-War God (Sword) Kotal doesn't have command grabs, only Sun God does and he has to land three (and sacrifice health recovery) to max out its damage. I also played Grundy, having to choose between damage and utility on every grab fucking sucks.
-Mileena has a grabby variation too, but that seems to be her softest variation, as does F/T's grab centric Lackey.

Playing devil's avocado with anyone else unrevealed is no different from me saying the same about them and zoning. Predator could be your master zoner and Tremor could be my master grappler (which would suck because I do not want to buy him). Or it could be someone already revealed cause this is all theory fighter. Either way, saying the sky is falling cause Derek and Tyler don't know how to zone is just going to get Scorpion nerfed again.

Now I understand what you're saying. You mean grappling specifically.

I think Commando Kano will be ok. Unlike Shazam, he can hit string into his grabs off block. Without meter it's bush league, but with a bar it's beastly. With a 3 hit string being able to cancel into an unblockable armored grab is going to be a nightmare. A grab that does 20%. After a blocked hit guessing between blocking the string or evading the grab is gonna be Batgirl levels of guessing.

Agree on Sun God. Seems more brawler than grappler.

Still not sure what to think about Mileena's Ravenous, need more info. Same as Ferra/Torr.

True true. I still think zoning appears to be the weakest from previously listed reasons, but I'll withhold full judgment until after Kenshi is shown. That will be the make or break on what's going on to me. Also, Scorpion looks strong and will be the #1 played character online. You know the nerf is coming.

 

[SaltShaker]

"Necromancer" Shinnok seems to be the most promising zoning character thus far. He has a very good forward and backdash, an armored MB special move that leads to a small combo, and various projectiles that either appear right next to the opponent or out of the ground. The frame data on these projectiles will determine whether Shinnok is actually a good zoning character or not, but on paper he has all the necessary tools.

Agree with this.

Necromancer Shinnok looked like he had some serious potential. One of the first variations I'll try out. Frames will dictate his value but his Necromancy projectiles mixed with his MB armored shoulder can be the real deal. It's the character I didn't like, because the other two variations were just "meh" at best imo.

 

[M2Dave]

I hope so. His vanilla tools don't quite scream "zoner" to me.

Neither did Zod's tools until they were analyzed, tested, and resolved. I am trying to avoid another "Zod is mediocre" controversy because, believe me, my zoning brothers and sisters, no person on planet Earth will blow up Mortal Kombat X more than I will if the entire game revolves around rush down.

It's the character I didn't like, because the other two variations were just "meh" at best imo.

I agree. The other two variations seem pretty shitty. "Imposter" seems gimmicky and entirely match up dependent.

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

"Necromancer" Shinnok seems to be the most promising zoning character thus far. He has a very good forward and backdash, an armored MB special move that leads to a small combo, and various projectiles that either appear right next to the opponent or out of the ground. The frame data on these projectiles will determine whether Shinnok is actually a good zoning character or not, but on paper he has all the necessary tools.

Flick appeared like a good Kenshi SCish move and might be a great tool if it has good pushback on block and decent startup/block.frames. Depending on his chip damage and ability to control space I will look at him. The largest problem that I see though is that his necromancer version looks like it might be blown up by other zoners. The start up frames appear very slow on his summoned ground hand and that worries me.

But yes I agree, on paper he has the tools but it will all come down to his frame data.

 

[Wemfs]

Erron Black looks like a really nice zoner, imo. He seems to have a lot of zoning tools.

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

talking about zoning @General M2Dave what do you think about Raiden's variation, the one that he can connects his projectiles together or Lui Kangs Duelist variation where his fireballs are similar to MMH fireballs?

 

[Thierry Henry]

The more zoners cry about the lack of zoning in this game, the more I love it!

 

[Immortal]

talking about zoning @General M2Dave what do you think about Raiden's variation, the one that he can connects his projectiles together or Lui Kangs Duelist variation where his fireballs are similar to MMH fireballs?

Both seems really slow where in the game which has run and half of the cast has some sort of teleport means bad. But obviously we have to wait till the game is released with the final judgment.

 

[xWEBSx]

I have to re-watch.. Will edit once I'm done..

First: I am not by any means a master zoner, nor am I ultimately a fan of zoners, however in order to strike balance in the game, there needs to be "the no doubt, dedicated zoner"
That being said.. Erron Black boggles my mind..Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...
Marksman.. A sniper...,has a rifle.......and a fucking tackle. Give his marksman a few different other gunshot variations.... And for Christ sakes, a simple gun shot/air gun shot like @SaltShaker said ala Cassie..
His move set reminds me a LOT of the Joker, while his combos shout Harley Quinn

Onto some potential positives:
-He does have that move where he kicks the hammer and a shot fires, not sure if that is only in combo, or could be a quase simple shot..
-It appears that many of his moves leave the opponent high up in the air, and the stream guys didn't do anything to follow up on ANY of it. What this wreaks to me is.. Keep out, keep distance, make them lose their patience and come in at you carefree, punish a stupid jump in and blow them the fuck up with meaty combo's, get your distance again, and re-assess, repeat.
- if you watch, many of his specials move him backward, and with long reaching normals (pistol in hand to extend range) I think this is going to be the "zoner" you are looking for. (Unless Kenshi gets revealed and is similar to MK)

I still stick to my first assessment of Erron Black- General Population will jump on Erron due to the bad boy/ bounty hunter appeal, however while he will have a strong showing at release, general population will seat him mid tier at best, shelf him, forget about him, and move on. I do believe (again: frame/advantage pending) that with the proper work put in, dedicated zoners like @General M2Dave , @SaltShaker, and others will find surprising success with him.

I am sorry to say it @SaltShaker, but it looks to me that NRS is going the way of grapple/rush down, in character and variation, and the zoning mans zoner is not found yet. Just because someone has a gun, or a fireball does not mean hey are a zoner. However, at the end, let's not forget, this is not MK9, run meter management is going to be huge, almost to the point where it needs to be learned just as much as combo's and variations. I believe that lots of things as a whole in the community I have read are treating this like a new version of MK, and are ultimately sleeping on a burnable run bar.

P.S:
The triple hip fire rifle shot- will be good to use mid combo.. Outside combo it will be like JC throwing out random shadow kicks, or Raiden throwing out random "he owe me moneyyyy".