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Anti- Zoners in MKX?

M2Dave

Zoning Master
talking about zoning @General M2Dave what do you think about Raiden's variation, the one that he can connects his projectiles together or Lui Kangs Duelist variation where his fireballs are similar to MMH fireballs?
I did not analyze Raiden, but Liu Kang's first stance looks the best and most versatile to me. You can visually distinguish that the fireballs have different recoveries in each variation, and the first variation has the best recovery frames. He appears to have various other non-zoning tools too.
 

Brutal Chimney

vaporus punching bag
im not sure why you said Erron Black seemed to have a lack of "get off of me" options when i see several just from the trailer alone. a lot of his stuff puts the enemy at mid screen. its not something that sends them all the way back to the other side and completely undues all the progress, but it does create space keeping him at mid screen which seems to be where he will shine, just outside of everyone else's range
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
im not sure why you said Erron Black seemed to have a lack of "get off of me" options when i see several just from the trailer alone. a lot of his stuff puts the enemy at mid screen. its not something that sends them all the way back to the other side and completely undues all the progress, but it does create space keeping him at mid screen which seems to be where he will shine, just outside of everyone else's range
1) Shortened Stages
2) Run

Short stages, full screen here will be like mid screen in other games.
 

Brutal Chimney

vaporus punching bag
1) Shortened Stages
2) Run

Short stages, full screen here will be like mid screen in other games.
you cant run in on him though, he also has good anti air which makes jumping in difficult. yes he's weak to teleports but i imagine that would be the case regardless.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
you cant run in on him though, he also has good anti air which makes jumping in difficult. yes he's weak to teleports but i imagine that would be the case regardless.
......
Mmmmmm.... Basically, without a GTFO me move, you get him on his back, he is fucked.

Which I am pretty sure what Salt was talking about when he mentioned it. Once your in on Erron you are golden.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
First: I am not by any means a master zoner, nor am I ultimately a fan of zoners, however in order to strike balance in the game, there needs to be "the no doubt, dedicated zoner"
That being said.. Erron Black boggles my mind..Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...
Marksman.. A sniper...,has a rifle.......and a fucking tackle. Give his marksman a few different other gunshot variations.... And for Christ sakes, a simple gun shot/air gun shot like @SaltShaker said ala Cassie..
His move set reminds me a LOT of the Joker, while his combos shout Harley Quinn

Onto some potential positives:
-He does have that move where he kicks the hammer and a shot fires, not sure if that is only in combo, or could be a quase simple shot..
-It appears that many of his moves leave the opponent high up in the air, and the stream guys didn't do anything to follow up on ANY of it. What this wreaks to me is.. Keep out, keep distance, make them lose their patience and come in at you carefree, punish a stupid jump in and blow them the fuck up with meaty combo's, get your distance again, and re-assess, repeat.
- if you watch, many of his specials move him backward, and with long reaching normals (pistol in hand to extend range) I think this is going to be the "zoner" you are looking for. (Unless Kenshi gets revealed and is similar to MK)

I still stick to my first assessment of Erron Black- General Population will jump on Erron due to the bad boy/ bounty hunter appeal, however while he will have a strong showing at release, general population will seat him mid tier at best, shelf him, forget about him, and move on. I do believe (again: frame/advantage pending) that with the proper work put in, dedicated zoners like @General M2Dave , @SaltShaker, and others will find surprising success with him.

I am sorry to say it @SaltShaker, but it looks to me that NRS is going the way of grapple/rush down, in character and variation, and the zoning mans zoner is not found yet. Just because someone has a gun, or a fireball does not mean hey are a zoner. However, at the end, let's not forget, this is not MK9, run meter management is going to be huge, almost to the point where it needs to be learned just as much as combo's and variations. I believe that lots of things as a whole in the community I have read are treating this like a new version of MK, and are ultimately sleeping on a burnable run bar.

P.S:
The triple hip fire rifle shot- will be good to use mid combo.. Outside combo it will be like JC throwing out random shadow kicks, or Raiden throwing out random "he owe me moneyyyy".
Yea I kind of got the Joker/Harley vibe too. Not crazy about that.

He does seem like a zoner in the sense of the definition, just not a mind blowing one. Like a mix for the updated version of the game. I'll for sure run him through the lab though. He has potential if he can get guys off of him which I didn't see. I wish they wouldn't have tried to do "too much" with him and just went full on zoning. Like why does he have a tackle, really? Why did Cyborg have a tackle is what I thought of. That silly slide? Two universal specials that could have been something else relating to his guns. I want to believe in him, but I'm seeing "MU Dependent" all over him.

So far I'll try MoS and Mystic Ermac as well as Necromancer Shinnok before him. They appear to have better all around tools to deal with the cast than Black if their data isn't crapped on. Black and Jin are on my radar though.
 

NHDR

Noob
Liu Kang in his fire variation looks like a good zoner. Multiple fireballs that cover a lot of space? Also, Sub-Zero might be fine with his ice clone variation. I also don't want this game to be too rush down heavy ala SF4, but I think there's reason to be optimistic. I'm also waiting to see what happens with Kenshi, but I'm heavily leaning towards Gunslinger Erron Black. Just too cool.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Yea I kind of got the Joker/Harley vibe too. Not crazy about that.

He does seem like a zoner in the sense of the definition, just not a mind blowing one. Like a mix for the updated version of the game. I'll for sure run him through the lab though. He has potential if he can get guys off of him which I didn't see. I wish they wouldn't have tried to do "too much" with him and just went full on zoning. Like why does he have a tackle, really? Why did Cyborg have a tackle is what I thought of. That silly slide? Two universal specials that could have been something else relating to his guns. I want to believe in him, but I'm seeing "MU Dependent" all over him.

So far I'll try MoS and Mystic Ermac as well as Necromancer Shinnok before him. They appear to have better all around tools to deal with the cast than Black if their data isn't crapped on. Black and Jin are on my radar though.
Tackle/slide on Erron is all about the flash.. To draw in the gen pop..aka: as useful as teets on a bull.

Edit:
I don't like Erron Black...
But I guess, I mean, if I had to reach...
And the opponent is scared to jump in on you, but gets reckless in his forward dash, you could tackle/slide, also as a way to cause damage, get your self back to neutral, and then re-distance yourself..

I don't like Erron Black at all.
 
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SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
im not sure why you said Erron Black seemed to have a lack of "get off of me" options when i see several just from the trailer alone. a lot of his stuff puts the enemy at mid screen. its not something that sends them all the way back to the other side and completely undues all the progress, but it does create space keeping him at mid screen which seems to be where he will shine, just outside of everyone else's range
What do you think Erron will do to get opponents out of his face once he gets in? That slow mo Marksmen rifle swing? Sandball? Normals? What will he do once they get in and start Johnny Cage'ing him?

I didn't see anything which was one of my big turn offs. Too many characters have strong "get in" options so as a zoner you need a strong "get off me" option as well.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
What do you think Erron will do to get opponents out of his face once he gets in? That slow mo Marksmen rifle swing? Sandball? Normals? What will he do once they get in and start Johnny Cage'ing him?

I didn't see anything which was one of my big turn offs. Too many characters have strong "get in" options so as a zoner you need a strong "get off me" option as well.
use your golf swing man..
Look at it this way... You will save lots of time, cause the match will end that much more quickly..

ONTO THE NEXT!
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Also, shout outs to everyone in this thread.

Clear difference of views and perspectives about how the game should be played as well as play styles themselves, but the entire discussion has been hella civil with great points being made all throughout from both sides.

It's like bizarro land in this thread in a good way.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Like why does he have a tackle, really? Why did Cyborg have a tackle is what I thought of.
Well, a potentially low-profile enough unblockable that created space is kind of ok in my book.
Cyborg's one sucked because it failed to create real guessing game on wakeup and didn't work in other situations too because of silly hitbox that was making it whiff where it should haven't.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I doubt it'll be any more unblockable as Kano's, Cassie's, etc normal command grabs.
To be honest, I will believe that one when I see it, even though I shouldn't really question this source (granted, I haven't seen the original). It's gonna be a letdown if it's true though.
 
I dont understand- There's plenty of zoning in this game. My understanding is that the problem is that there aren't enough characters with variation-specific zoning tools?

I suppose it's a valid complaint, but doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of variations?

There's also alot of people dedicated to zoning that seems to have a problem with teleports. Isn't reading teleports (or other ways of getting around zoning) a standard practice in zoning? I mean it's nothing new, right?
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
There's also alot of people dedicated to zoning that seems to have a problem with teleports. Isn't reading teleports (or other ways of getting around zoning) a standard practice in zoning? I mean it's nothing new, right?
To be honest, this meta just has a habit of turning zoning from spacing game into guessing game. Pressure, if you will, just from fullscreen or so.
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
I love how a "Who are the anti-zoners" thread turned into a "Wait a minute... who are the zoners?"

I feel like zoning in MKX will be extremely similar to zoning in USF4, as opposed to IGAU. Less about putting projectiles on the screen, and more about space-control.

There are so many anti-zoners in MKX. From super obvious ones like Scorpion (who can just teleport in), to less obvious ones like Cassie (who can just look to trade her missiles with the opponent's projectile or hit them with Air Akimbo so she can run in).
 

PaletteSwap

Misanthropiate
Most people on TYM don't use the traditional definition of zoning, just so you know. They are mainly talking about projectile based characters.
Funny you said that. I'm guilty of it too. I just got done posting on Tom Brady's thread about picking a character you are comfortable with and I said something to the effect of "I like zoners who aren't zoners" referring to Ermac's midrange TK antics.

Most people think of projectile characters as zoners, but we forget about a certain green dude from the jungle that zones with his body.
 

Brutal Chimney

vaporus punching bag
I doubt it'll be any more unblockable as Kano's, Cassie's, etc normal command grabs.
The jury is still out on that one though. we've seen evidence this may not be the case as when Tyler used Commando it looked liked a blocking Mileena got hit with a normal command grab.

Also something to note his Erron has some strong lows that you're going to need to crouch to block further stoping forward movement, Otherwise he's just going to knock you off the ground and blast you away. or at least that seems to be the intent
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
I love how a "Who are the anti-zoners" thread turned into a "Wait a minute... who are the zoners?"
That was the entire point of my first post in this thread lol

I feel like zoning in MKX will be extremely similar to zoning in USF4, as opposed to IGAU. Less about putting projectiles on the screen, and more about space-control.
I totally agree and have been saying this for a while. Your best zoners are going ti be the characters that force the oppenent to play their game (Liu Kang, Mileena, Sub Zero)