"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[rev0lver]

Lex Luthor 6-4 But I need to play rev0lver to understand how a high lvl Lex plays, until then just disregard this number as theory + high but not highest lvl experience.

It could be in Joker's favor, but idk yet. There's a lot in the mu in my favor but it can be super tough to get in and start doing stuff when I need to.

 

[Cage Redfield]

Wait... the 1+3 on that string still comes out on block? Or are you talking about inputting it, but it doesn't come out on block and you are just following up with hook charge during that advantage from the b12?

I'm saying that if I land b12 1+3 and it connects, Joker is placed in an area where his D2 whiffs, but I can use my hook charge, outranging the move. Same deal with Hook Charge. And Lobo's always either use b12 because of it's + frames and it being his only low launcher, or end all their combos with Hook Charge for oki. The distance B12 1+3 and Hook Charge puts the opponent at is too far for Joker to connect with his D2.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

It could be in Joker's favor, but idk yet. There's a lot in the mu in my favor but it can be super tough to get in and start doing stuff when I need to.

This may be a naive statement because I really don't know the option that well either, but I feel like Joker's gun deals with Lex's trait alot of the time pretty well when you try to throw it on at a distance during setups. He can just shoot it off of you real fast and then deal with whatever you're following it up with, while you don't have any options to punish that gunshot. That's one very small aspect of the matchup, just thought I'd throw that out there and see what the reaction is lol. Thanks for letting me use your converter last week btw! I ordered one, but it still hasn't come =( so I may have to bum it off you again tomorrow if you're going .

I'm saying that if I land b12 1+3 and it connects, Joker is placed in an area where his D2 whiffs, but I can use my hook charge, outranging the move. Same deal with Hook Charge. And Lobo's always either use b12 because of it's + frames and it being his only low launcher, or end all their combos with Hook Charge for oki. The distance B12 1+3 and Hook Charge puts the opponent at is too far for Joker to connect with his D2.

Gotcha. That's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation and the input man!

 

[Qwark28]

There's no way Joker's D2 out-ranges my Hook Charge. The max distance of Hook Charge is like, B12 1+3 on hit distance. Which puts Lobo at jumping distance away from the opponent. Unless Joker's D2 can reach from round-start-like areas, Lobo is not going to get bodied by D2 trying to do Hook Charge.

As for punishing my trait load, Lobo can safely guarantee his trait load mid-combo or after he lands a trait mb pump shot. Ending a combo with 21 xx trait load and f21 xx trait load can only be punished if you tech roll and have a fast enough reversal (I doubt Acid Flower reaches at that range and Crowbar most likely doesn't reach Lobo in time), and if I'm wrong about that, he can just send you full screen with AA throw or Space Hook during a combo/off an anti-air standing 3.

If your only option to deal with Hook Charge MB is to push-block it, that means you have to waste a bar to get me off you, and if I'm not mistaken, Joker requires meter for his stuff. Saying push-block beats this move because you can push-block me into teeth is like saying you can push-block NW's Staff Spin into teeth. What if I Hook Charge you before you set up teeth? What if I did a Hook Charge MB while teeth where out and by the time you push-block it, the teeth already exploded?

As for mid-shot being 6f, I'd have to test that. I've never used it to punish anything outside of whiffed/blocked unsafe zoning.

For your first point, D2 does reach that far but is just a little less ranged than D2 which is faster and gives a combo/setup on block/hit. What can Lobo get off of a MB charge +3 on block? Only thing I see is S3 into a special.

You don't want Joker fullscreen, fair enough on the mid-combo reloads.

No, pushblock I said because of teeth, every knockdown I can end in teeth so waking up is never an option. MB charge timing for pushblock is the same as normal charge, you cannot move when teeth are out.

And all these are without mentioning Joker's corner game, where one touch equals 75% into a 50/50 mixup which is safe for Joker and doesn't even guarantee you exit from the corner.

 

[Qwark28]

It could be in Joker's favor, but idk yet. There's a lot in the mu in my favor but it can be super tough to get in and start doing stuff when I need to.

It seems much harder to get something going for you than it is for me, your wakeups are also pretty horrible so there's that.

We should play a few sets online to get a feel of how the MU goes.

 

[Cage Redfield]

For your first point, D2 does reach that far but is just a little less ranged than D2 which is faster and gives a combo/setup on block/hit. What can Lobo get off of a MB charge +3 on block? Only thing I see is S3 into a special.

You don't want Joker fullscreen, fair enough on the mid-combo reloads.

No, pushblock I said because of teeth, every knockdown I can end in teeth so waking up is never an option. MB charge timing for pushblock is the same as normal charge, you cannot move when teeth are out.

And all these are without mentioning Joker's corner game, where one touch equals 75% into a 50/50 mixup which is safe for Joker and doesn't even guarantee you exit from the corner.

B1, which is faster than standing 3 and leads to more advantage.

I'll give you the teeth setup making it harder for me to wake-up.

Both characters are "one touch and you're dead" characters, which is mostly why I think it's a 5-5. We both control space pretty well, both hit like a truck, both don't have the best of normals and use one or two normals for the most part. You have your corner shenanigans, I have the ambiguious jump-in setup that reverses your wakeups. Other than having a better corner game than me, I just don't see how Joker beats Lobo in any of these areas.

 

[rev0lver]

It seems much harder to get something going for you than it is for me, your wakeups are also pretty horrible so there's that.

We should play a few sets online to get a feel of how the MU goes.

I actually don't see why Lex's wakeups are bad. CC is unsafe of course but can be safely used to get out of certain situations, and (at least offline) can be used on reaction to a lot of things since it's so fast. Making you respect an option like that isn't necessarily bad. Joker's wakeups play into my favor though since none of them are teleporting/advancing. But yeah we'll play sometime.

 

[Qwark28]

B1, which is faster than standing 3 and leads to more advantage.

I'll give you the teeth setup making it harder for me to wake-up.

Both characters are "one touch and you're dead" characters, which is mostly why I think it's a 5-5. We both control space pretty well, both hit like a truck, both don't have the best of normals and use one or two normals for the most part. You have your corner shenanigans, I have the ambiguious jump-in setup that reverses your wakeups. Other than having a better corner game than me, I just don't see how Joker beats Lobo in any of these areas.

Joker's 50/50s don't require meter and have great wallcarry, corner touch of death combos are something Lobo has to deal with, in that case, as with most other rushdown characters, backing up into the corner works in his favour.

Joker's normals are actually pretty good, he has D2/D3/F2/B1/J2/J3 and multiple of his strings are very little - on block when cancelled into teeth on hit/block and have setups

These characters go pretty even midscreen but the corner is what makes this in Joker's favour IMO. When a rushdown character is chasing down someone and has to go " damn, reached the corner" then that's fucked up, the thought of one mistake, one crossup leading into 75% is scary as hell, not to mention Joker's corner game is excellent even when his back is there, it's one of the reasons DD and Bane have to be careful in the corner because there you HAVE to deal with Joker's teeth and D2, you must go through his defense and if you fuck up and get crossed it's GGs.

 

[Qwark28]

I actually don't see why Lex's wakeups are bad. CC is unsafe of course but can be safely used to get out of certain situations, and (at least offline) can be used on reaction to a lot of things since it's so fast. Making you respect an option like that isn't necessarily bad. Joker's wakeups play into my favor though since none of them are teleporting/advancing. But yeah we'll play sometime.

True but personally I wouldn't want such an unsafe wakeup to rely on in times.

 

[Fromundaman]

True but personally I wouldn't want such an unsafe wakeup to rely on in times.

It's a hell of a lot better than flower is TBH, and if you see someone baiting it you can just wake up normally (in this matchup that would mean tech rolls) or even wakeup MB probe/trait/grab (Not sure why no one seems to remember you can wake up with non-invincible moves too. Some oki traps can actually be avoided just by throwing out probes or grabs on wakeup. ).


On a side note, I'm still not seeing how Joker vs Nightwing is 5-5. Instant air wingdings shut down a LOT of our options just by themselves.

 

[Qwark28]

It's a hell of a lot better than flower is TBH, and if you see someone baiting it you can just wake up normally (in this matchup that would mean tech rolls) or even wakeup MB probe/trait/grab (Not sure why no one seems to remember you can wake up with non-invincible moves too. Some oki traps can actually be avoided just by throwing out probes or grabs on wakeup. ).


On a side note, I'm still not seeing how Joker vs Nightwing is 5-5. Instant air wingdings shut down a LOT of our options just by themselves.

Instant air dings are jumpable and severely -.

 

[Fromundaman]

Instant air dings are jumpable and severely -.

Is there a specific range you have to jump them at? I've had my j3 stopped by wingdings so many times I've stopped trying. Hell, I've had more success trying to backdash wingdings then forward dash in than I've had trying to jump them.

He also seems to zone us much better than we do him and have just as good of blockstrings, which themselves lead into safe 50-50s. I have trouble seeing this as even but maybe I'm not seeing something.
On a side note, is there an easy way to deal with staff pressure? So far I've had success with pushblocks and parries, but those drain meter or give me HAs (God that parry would be so much more useful in this matchup if it didn't give me HAs...).

 

[Qwark28]

Is there a specific range you have to jump them at? I've had my j3 stopped by wingdings so many times I've stopped trying. Hell, I've had more success trying to backdash wingdings then forward dash in than I've had trying to jump them.

He also seems to zone us much better than we do him and have just as good of blockstrings, which themselves lead into safe 50-50s. I have trouble seeing this as even but maybe I'm not seeing something.
On a side note, is there an easy way to deal with staff pressure? So far I've had success with pushblocks and parries, but those drain meter or give me HAs (God that parry would be so much more useful in this matchup if it didn't give me HAs...).

from neutral jump distance an early j3 will beat wing dings

if theyre jumping pre emptively low wing dings then j3 over them

if theyre doing jump back high height wing dings either chase them if you can or block and j3 from further away.

no such thing as staff pressure, he only has lows and a 22f overhead, fuzzy guard it and he cannot open you up. interrupt 1 f1 staff spark with with s1/s2 full combo

escrima 50/50s are only via crossup flipkicks with are reactable.

low gas can interrupts escrima zoning on a lead and gunshot destroys staff zoning

 

[Fromundaman]

Thanks, going to go mess with this then.

That said what do you mean he has no staff pressure and only lows? He only has D3, the second hit of the high>low string and ground spark as lows in staff. I also thought all of his mids were + on block?

Also doesn't the flipkick only cross up if MBed?

 

[Qwark28]

Thanks, going to go mess with this then.

That said what do you mean he has no staff pressure and only lows? He only has D3, the second hit of the high>low string and ground spark as lows in staff. I also thought all of his mids were + on block?

Also doesn't the flipkick only cross up if MBed?

he has no mixups with which to open you up

staff stance has 1 overhead to worry about and 1 low, both seeable

escrima has d3, b2 and crossup flipkicks, both versions can cross

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Also, you can dash out of the advantage block strings that setup you up for a 50/50 rather than try to guess the block, can't you?

 

[Qwark28]

Also, you can dash out of the advantage block strings that setup you up for a 50/50 rather than try to guess the block, can't you?

depending on the string, yes.

 

[Fromundaman]

Ooooooh... I'd been told by a NW player it only crossed up if MBed and basically I had to guess whether he'd MB or not.

That should make things easier.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Gilbagz]

from neutral jump distance an early j3 will beat wing dings

if theyre jumping pre emptively low wing dings then j3 over them

if theyre doing jump back high height wing dings either chase them if you can or block and j3 from further away.

no such thing as staff pressure, he only has lows and a 22f overhead, fuzzy guard it and he cannot open you up. interrupt 1 f1 staff spark with with s1/s2 full combo

escrima 50/50s are only via crossup flipkicks with are reactable.

low gas can interrupts escrima zoning on a lead and gunshot destroys staff zoning

Hey Qwark can you explain how gunshot destroys staff zoning?
gunshot is faster than ground blast with ground blast coming out at 21f
but the animation on ground blast causes him to duck gun shot
Furthermore, if he ducks a single gunshot, he can get's a free ground blast which you are forced to jump or block
To play safe he can just mb that ground blast
And once you block a single groundblast, its over
He's +9 (+18 on the mb)
You can't retaliate with gunshot at all until you manage to jump a ground blast, which you can only do after blocking a standard ground blast

I do not see how Joker can outzone nightwing in staff at all in this match.
You lose the chip war by far, he duck gunshot all day and force you to block ground blast
I've lost like 10%+ in chip to ground blast alone when a nightwing decides to spend his meter on mb ground blast.

 

[Fromundaman]

You can catch the ground pound at the very beginning of the move with gunshot. Because of this, if you hold the gun out and have fast reactions you can actually catch him as he starts the move as well.

What this means is that when you're neutral on life, both of you can punish each other on a read.
With a life lead, you can just hold out the gun and punish any ground pound he does (Unless he waits out the entire "hold out the gun" duration at which point it's back to neutral and you ran out some time.).
Also our super punishes all of his projectiles on reaction.


That said, when NW has a lifelead it can be REALLY hard to get in since he can just wait for you to do something and punish with ground pound or flying greyson.

 

[rehti]

I am not very good at execution but I have been trying things these days. Basically, after we B3, there is 2 main otpions, Ji2 or D2 ... However, has anyone ever tried things after a RLGmb? It looks like the opponent is going higher than a normal D2 and stay very close to Joker which make me think there is something that can be done with that. I know this cost 2 meters but if it can lead to a 55% combo, I would take it I think. Since I am very bad with the D2xxteeth setup, I want to know if anyone ever tried that option. It might give more room for something more between the 2 teeth... I dont know maybe J3 into D2 RLG?

What you guys think?

 

[Fromundaman]

Depends on how you start your combo since you can't do multiple RLG MB in a combo.

I usually use D2>MB RLG to extend combos if I started it off of teeth so that I can get a B3 afterwards. Actually I'm pretty sure I only started doing that after seeing someone here do it XD

 

[rehti]

you can do multiple MB RLG what are you talking about?

 

[Fromundaman]

you can do multiple MB RLG what are you talking about?

Huh... well I just learned something.

I didn't know you could do MB for the same move more than once per combo.

 

[Qwark28]

Hey Qwark can you explain how gunshot destroys staff zoning?
gunshot is faster than ground blast with ground blast coming out at 21f
but the animation on ground blast causes him to duck gun shot
Furthermore, if he ducks a single gunshot, he can get's a free ground blast which you are forced to jump or block
To play safe he can just mb that ground blast
And once you block a single groundblast, its over
He's +9 (+18 on the mb)
You can't retaliate with gunshot at all until you manage to jump a ground blast, which you can only do after blocking a standard ground blast

I do not see how Joker can outzone nightwing in staff at all in this match.
You lose the chip war by far, he duck gunshot all day and force you to block ground blast
I've lost like 10%+ in chip to ground blast alone when a nightwing decides to spend his meter on mb ground blast.

Gunshot destroys staff zoning when you have a decent lead. It will catch the pound during startup, he only ducks right before the pound is out, which is approx 15f in if I had to guess.

You actually trade with pound if you block one and reversal gunshot since he has slight travel time, I calculate it like this when it happens

21-9=12

16-12= 4

4f of travel time means that you should be able to get a gunshot reversal and judging by his spark, it does have a decent amount of travel time.

When you have a very good lifelead you can counter all of his zoning low rlg, you will catch him during recovery, on block for chip and sometimes for a gunshot combo, so he cannot zone you out to regain the lifelead.

When up close he cannot deal with jump ins, he has no AA on par with Aquaman, WW or air throw characters and even those can get jumped on if you're not predictable.

Your damage and wallcarry far exceeds his, his setups are more baiting and his wakeups are good though, in the corner the same stuff applies, touch of death.

You excel up close, he excels in keepaway, except that when you have the lead his keepaway is not as good, yours becomes better and both up-close games remain the same. Teeth, J3 and D2 are excelent defensive tools.