"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[Qwark28]

Joker is not viable.

Honestly, he's too much of a technical character for me to sit and write paragraphs upon paragraphs on every single character.

 

[KonDcnT]

I was thinking more along the lines of splitting up the match ups amongst the group and have each person research a few match ups. What I have seen on this forum is a lot of a few people being spread thin over being responsible for researching match ups or tech. imho, if we share the responsibility we may find the missing linkalot fafaster. Just my thought at the moment

 

[Qwark28]

I was thinking more along the lines of splitting up the match ups amongst the group and have each person research a few match ups. What I have seen on this forum is a lot of a few people being spread thin over being responsible for researching match ups or tech. imho, if we share the responsibility we may find the missing linkalot fafaster. Just my thought at the moment

I've played and know at least 20 matchups and know about 15 of them inside out, I'll be the one doing the main analyses and it's a huge list of things per character.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

There are a few threads along those lines already. We could make a more comprehensive one or just re-focus one of the others. It's on the to-do list either way.

 

[Gilbagz]

Hey guys found some stuff that makes Lantern's b1,3 a mind game in joker's favour.
Thinking Lantern is a 3.5-6.5 now, perhaps even a 4-6.
If we play super patient rushdown till we hit the corner, Joker can easily make up a lifelead and then run away and just dodge rockets.
Once you know the spacing on his air rockets, b1,3 and f3, this match up is very much a 4-6.

 

[Qwark28]

lantern is 4-6

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah I agree, I just hate the footsie game with him and the fact that he has sooooo many reset and crossup options. But I would agree that it's 4-6.

 

[OnlineRon91]

8-2, period.

 

[Qwark28]

What do you guys think about these? This is the list I posted for the living tier list and next up is my revision.

My MU chart for Joker, first number him, second his op.

Aquaman 3-7
Ares 4-6
Bane 5-5
Batgirl 4-6
Batman 4-6
Cat woman 4-6
Cyborg 4-6 possible 3-7
Deathstroke 4-6
Doomsday 4-6
Flash 3-7
Green Arrow 5-5, possible 4-6
Green Lantern 3-7 potential to be 4-6
Harley Quinn 4-6
Hawk girl 4-6
Black Adam 4-6
Killer Frost 5-5
Lex Luthor 5-5
Lobo 5-5
Martian Manhunter 4-6
Night wing 5-5
Raven 4-6
Scorpion 5-5
Shazam 5-5
Sinestro 3-7
Solomon Grundy 4-6
Superman 4-6
Wonder Woman 3-7
Zatanna No idea
Zod 3-7

Bad- 20
Even- 8
Good- 0
Undecided- Zatanna

Revised



Aquaman 3-7
Ares 5-5
Bane 5-5
Batgirl 4-6
Batman 4-6
Cat woman 4-6
Cyborg 4-6 Need to play Relaxedstate
Deathstroke 4-6
Doomsday 4-6
Flash 4-6 to 3-7
Green Arrow 5-5, possible 4-6
Green Lantern4-6
Harley Quinn 4-6
Hawk girl 5-5
Black Adam 4-6
Killer Frost 5-5
Lex Luthor 6-4 But I need to play rev0lver to understand how a high lvl Lex plays, until then just disregard this number as theory + high but not highest lvl experience.
Lobo 6-4
Martian Manhunter 4-6
Nightwing 5-5
Raven 4-6 could be even in the future Blind_Man need a breakdown of what Raven can do up close vs J's J3/D2/J2
Scorpion 5-5
Shazam 6-4
Sinestro 3-7
Solomon Grundy 4-6
Superman 4-6 maybe even in the future
Wonder Woman 3-7
Zatanna No idea
Zod 3,5-6,5 I can't give a better number.

Bad- 17
Even- 6-7
Good- 3
Undecided- Zatanna

Let me know what you think, I'm completely redesigning my concepts of this character, I believe he has a lot of potential.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I'm completely redesigning my concepts of this character

Can you elaborate on your reasoning/thought process?
I pretty much agree everywhere except Lobo, which I think is a 4-6, maybe 5-5. And I guess I'd peg Flash more as a solid 3-7.
Otherwise I think you're pretty much dead on.
Also.... KI is awesome .

 

[Qwark28]

Can you elaborate on your reasoning/thought process?
I pretty much agree everywhere except Lobo, which I think is a 4-6, maybe 5-5. And I guess I'd peg Flash more as a solid 3-7.
Otherwise I think you're pretty much dead on.
Also.... KI is awesome .

Calculating risk/reward and thinking more long term with Joker, e.g accumulating and slow damage over sudden bursts with resets.

I have lobo as 6-4 because he has no answer to J3, his damage is just a little bit above ours, his wakeups are horrible when teeth and pushblock collide, his normals are shit and his mixup game is pretty weak without taking risks.

 

[The PantyChrist]

But with how quickly he can load nuclear shells and the damn range you should never even be able to get close, unless he wants you close and lobos dash is better than ours

 

[Qwark28]

Why are you getting hit by nuclear shells though? Yes, you have to respect them but if the Lobo player just zones he's wasting meter and giving you opportunities for damage when he reloads. Lobo can do unless he actually hits you with the shells, you should not be zoning him anytime you suspect he's gonna shoot, if they like mindlessly shooting then they will have no meter and no shells for combos.

2 shells on block is 7% chip, one gunshot during reloading is 8%, you win 1% and the meter for gunshot and he loses a bar for MB pump shot.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Glad to hear you are taking a more calculative approach. I need to rewire my brain to do the same, because it's absolutely necessary for this character.
Lobo can duck a gunshot and punish for I believe 26% with his 6f mid MB pump shot, which leads into a free reload. And I believe standing 3 can AA ji3, but I'm not certain... it has more range than most uppercuts though, and then he can cancel that into MB nuke pump shots for 34%. Plus he has massive damage which he can access off of 50/50 with 2 xx low nuke shot or 21 xx low nuke shot. His punish game is insane as well, 54% off a b12 xx MB b3, ~60% off of a 113 leading into BGB stuff, and 50%+ off of his 7 or 8 frame 113 punish regularly, which he can also choose to drop and safe load nuke shells and just lame us out. We have similar damage, but it necessitates the corner or a level with a BGB and a hell of a lot more risk.
Our reset game is great against him; I was wrong previously about his wakeups, he has no way out of a well times MB f3 on teeth, and the timing isn't very strict. I think its gotta be played patiently, but he has more/better options up close and a better distance game, so I think I gotta give it to the main man on this one. I'd stick to 4-6 or 5-5.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Though a lot of times it's not him mindlessly shooting, but the fear that he has them loaded while he has the life lead. 1 mistake is another 28%

 

[Qwark28]

Glad to hear you are taking a more calculative approach. I need to rewire my brain to do the same, because it's absolutely necessary for this character.
Lobo can duck a gunshot and punish for I believe 26% with his 6f mid MB pump shot, which leads into a free reload. And I believe standing 3 can AA ji3, but I'm not certain... it has more range than most uppercuts though, and then he can cancel that into MB nuke pump shots for 34%. Plus he has massive damage which he can access off of 50/50 with 2 xx low nuke shot or 21 xx low nuke shot. His punish game is insane as well, 54% off a b12 xx MB b3, ~60% off of a 113 leading into BGB stuff, and 50%+ off of his 7 or 8 frame 113 punish regularly, which he can also choose to drop and safe load nuke shells and just lame us out. We have similar damage, but it necessitates the corner or a level with a BGB and a hell of a lot more risk.
Our reset game is great against him; I was wrong previously about his wakeups, he has no way out of a well times MB f3 on teeth, and the timing isn't very strict. I think its gotta be played patiently, but he has more/better options up close and a better distance game, so I think I gotta give it to the main man on this one. I'd stick to 4-6 or 5-5.

Not unless on a read, his pump shot is 17f and must be done on a read, not reaction.

B13 MB B3 costs 2 bars and you have no reason not to block first hits low.

Standing 3 only AAs on a read, not reaction, he needs to pre emptively throw it out.

standing 2 has no range at all, you can pushblock him out when he's so meter dependent + you have teeth.

We have 48% 1 bar 78% with background bounce, he has 58% one bar and trait, which means he won't be shooting you, he NEEDS those shells for damage which is why lobos who just throw them away are easy pickings, he also will not get close to you when your D2/D3/J3/J2 are normals against which he has no solution. Teeth also nullify his wakeup game due to pushblock and don't let him get in with charge or dash. Not to mention Joker doesn't have anything - enough to neccesitate a punish.

We outfootsie him, open him up easier, can properly defend, outzone and have constant meter advantage.

Though a lot of times it's not him mindlessly shooting, but the fear that he has them loaded while he has the life lead. 1 mistake is another 28%

And why would you be shooting when you don't have the lifelead, much less in general when you suspect he's gonna throw it out? It benefits us to throw his shells, he's wasting damage and mixup opportunity, each time he uses up shells he forfeits any kind of his hard to access mixup game and counterzoning.

You have gun constantly, he has damage everytime you allow him to reload, that's a constant advantage. You don't have to spam gun all the time either.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I'm talking about b1 more as a punish (cancelling into MB b3 is confirmable), but the fact that he has a fast low as an option is always there, and with b12 being +4 on block, the risk/reward is very much in his favor. It sets up a throw or d1 pressure.
Standing 2 is more of a threat to be simply after a ji2, even on block, because you can either go into the 50/50, or do 2 xx czar toss for a tick throw into a whole bunch of easy damage.
His high pump shot is 17 frames, but if you do df1b, it uses his MID pump shot, which is 6f and his for only 2% less damage; I don't know why more people don't talk about or use this, but there are some great Lobo's out there that know how to abuse this to punish very effectively.
You may be correct on standing 3 only working on read, but it doesn't really matter either way because even if you guess wrong and they stay on the ground you can cancel it to make it safe.
I agree on damage potential being bigger for Joker, but it's definitely more situational and requires more work.
We do slightly outfootsie him by about 1f (d1: 6f vs 7f, b1: 9f vs 10f, etc), but Lobo has superior screen control at most other places on the screen (50/50s with hook charge and low chain, constant nuke shell threat).
I can't see it being better than 5-5 for these reasons.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm talking about b1 more as a punish (cancelling into MB b3 is confirmable), but the fact that he has a fast low as an option is always there.
Standing 2 is more of a threat to be simply after a ji2, even on block, because you can either go into the 50/50, or do 2 xx czar toss for a tick throw into a whole bunch of easy damage.
His high pump shot is 17 frames, but if you do df1b, it uses his MID pump shot, which is 6f and his for only 2% less damage; I don't know why more people don't talk about or use this, but there are some great Lobo's out there that know how to abuse this to punish very effectively.
You may be correct on standing 3 only working on read, but it doesn't really matter either way because even if you guess wrong and they stay on the ground you can cancel it to make it safe.
I agree on damage potential being bigger for Joker, but it's definitely more situational and requires more work.
We do slightly outfootsie him by about 1f (d1: 6f vs 7f, b1: 9f vs 10f, etc), but Lobo has superior screen control at most other places on the screen (50/50s with hook charge and low chain, constant nuke shell threat).
I can't see it being better than 5-5 for these reasons.

Who cares if S3 is safe, they cannot anti air your jumps, that's exactly what you want as Joker.

Why are you letting a floaty character jump in on you? This is supposed to be at the highest lvl, you can't just let a 40+ frame jump in unpunished.

Mid pump shot is slightly faster but definitely not 6f

What do you mean more work? He needs shells, bars and some way to get in on a character that out footsies him, all we need is a bar and a J2, even without the bar we can still get 50/50s that are safe and lead to resets.

What punish man, whats he gonna punish? You still haven't told me how he will get in and how he will apply those mixups, all I see is that he's gonna shoot you and jump in from what I've gathered. And footsies is not frame advantage or a faster D1. Our D2 anti airs him, has more range and leads to a combo on hit and is cancellable into teeth so you can pushblock any attempts to get in after it. Our D3 has just as much distance. Hook charge and low hook is not a mixup, Hook charge only hits overhead in less than max D2 distance and low hook is 20f and -16.

I have played this MU both on and offline, it is not easy at all for Lobo to get in and once he does it is easy as hell to keep him out. The only way lobo will ever get in is by dashing under gunshot, MBing charge ( which still has pushback ) and hitting you with nuclear shells once in a while. He has no + in your face, he has no decent normals that don't get outzoned by ours and everything he does requires meter. What happens when he runs out?

Joker won't just sit there and let him get in due to fear of shells. You will zone as usual, punish reload attempts and rack up the damage, use teeth to keep him out and pushblock him if he does something stupid.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

The point is that they can AA your jumps on read, and to some degree on anticipation, and if they guess wrong, they can make it safe, reducing your ability to jump against him.
Joker is free to jump at when he's getting up. That sets up the situation I was talking about. Otherwise, you are correct, his jump is very floaty and can be dealt with easily. That said, whiffs happen at every level of play, and jump ins are going to occur.
Mid pump is 6f. Period. Look it up. This means any time you shoot at him when he's traited, all he has to do is duck and 26% you, into a free reload.
If I were a Lobo at range against Joker, I would have no problem eating 8% to load a trait that has exponentially more damage and can be used as a punish, and lets me trait up again for free. Outside of that, there are a ton of ways for Lobo to safely load up after landing a combo.
I don't get what you mean by "what punish?"... Joker isn't completely safe by any means, and mistakes happen regardless of your level of play. I'm just pointing out that mistakes against Lobo lead to huge punishes. I'm not saying he gets them for free, just that they are present.
I could be wrong, but I think hook charge's overhead does outrange Joker's d2... it hits further than startup positions, which is pretty much the max range of d2.
He does have frame advantage, I just explained that his b13 is +4, and his MB hook charge leaves him at +.
Closing gaps is absurdly easy for him. His dash is incredibly fast, has great distance, and goes under gunshots.
You're right that low hook is somewhat reactable... but it's not easy. And the fact that there is an overhead option at many ranges makes it tough to predict when you are in that range.
There are plenty of things Joker beats him at; Joker is superior in the air and absolutely demolishes him when Joker is in a situation where he can reset him. I'm just listing the reason why I think the matchup isn't 6-4.
For the above reasons, combined with the reasoning you have provided, I think my final opinion would be that it's 5-5, but I can't agree with 6-4. I just don't think we're in favor in this matchup.
Perhaps Cage Redfield can comment? I'm not sure how much experience he has with the Joker matchup, but I'm curious what he thinks because he has a very good Lobo (sorry there is so much to read in this and the last couple posts!!! ).

 

[Qwark28]

Overhead hook has less reach than D2, mid takes some time to come out, his dashes are easy to read because they're so spammable, you know they'll close the gap but you also have teeth out to completely stop his momentum.

It's not that low hook is reactable, it's that he has nothing else to really do. MB charge is +3 but can be pushblocked into teeth and leaves you at almost jump distance, making +3 not mean much besides a standing 3 check, B13 assumes he already is in.

Fun fact, his dash actually has the startup listed as a regular dash, you can hit him out of it sometimes.

There's no way the mid is 6f, I did actually look it up and I went into practice mode to see, the punish is easier but it is deifnitely not 6f.

If they guess wrong they whiffed a S3 when it comes to AAing, everyone can anti air any jump in the game on a read, doesn't mean much. They still cannot react to J3 without flicking around S3 like a spastic.

Gunshot interrupts trait refill if done right at the beginning.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah I've noticed that about his dash lol. I think it still gets him under things most of the time. You just need to actually time it instead of spam, which brings us to your high-level-of-play scenario- not gonna just be spamming there.
Idk, maybe the data is wrong on the mid shot, but the point I'm making is he can duck a gunshot and destroy you if he's traited. You can't stop the trait from loading consistently, even if you hit him, the shells go in and then you're playing his game. You have to hit him at the first few frames to stop it. That only occurs by chance, no way to do it on reaction.
The S3 stuff is tight. I'll defer to your judgement for now, but I'd have to test it for myself to say for sure.
I find that people often struggle to react to a dash into czar throw, and if you buffer it properly his hitbox stays low pretty much the whole time.
It's close is all I'm really saying. I think they both have great options against each other in many situations, and I think it comes out pretty even. I think you could literally draw out a map across the screen with the matchup favoring each character at different slots on the screen. The reason I think Lobo wins the matchup is that his map would be slightly larger. Lol, that sounds retarded, but I'm sticking to it!

 

[Cage Redfield]

There's no way Joker's D2 out-ranges my Hook Charge. The max distance of Hook Charge is like, B12 1+3 on hit distance. Which puts Lobo at jumping distance away from the opponent. Unless Joker's D2 can reach from round-start-like areas, Lobo is not going to get bodied by D2 trying to do Hook Charge.

As for punishing my trait load, Lobo can safely guarantee his trait load mid-combo or after he lands a trait mb pump shot. Ending a combo with 21 xx trait load and f21 xx trait load can only be punished if you tech roll and have a fast enough reversal (I doubt Acid Flower reaches at that range and Crowbar most likely doesn't reach Lobo in time), and if I'm wrong about that, he can just send you full screen with AA throw or Space Hook during a combo/off an anti-air standing 3.

If your only option to deal with Hook Charge MB is to push-block it, that means you have to waste a bar to get me off you, and if I'm not mistaken, Joker requires meter for his stuff. Saying push-block beats this move because you can push-block me into teeth is like saying you can push-block NW's Staff Spin into teeth. What if I Hook Charge you before you set up teeth? What if I did a Hook Charge MB while teeth where out and by the time you push-block it, the teeth already exploded?

As for mid-shot being 6f, I'd have to test that. I've never used it to punish anything outside of whiffed/blocked unsafe zoning.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

snip

Yeah, most of this is in line with what I was thinking. However, Joker's d2 does connect from the starting position of a match (it has one of the largest horizontal ranges for a d2 in the game). That being said, I think hook charge's overhead still connects a little farther than that.
Thanks for the input man .

 

[Cage Redfield]

Yeah, most of this is in line with what I was thinking. However, Joker's d2 does connect from the starting position of a match (it has one of the largest horizontal ranges for a d2 in the game). That being said, I think hook charge's overhead still connects a little farther than that.
Thanks for the input man .

It does. B12 1+3 and Hook Charge on hit puts Joker in a situation where his D2 doesn't connect, but my Hook Charge will.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

It does. B12 1+3 and Hook Charge on hit puts Joker in a situation where his D2 doesn't connect, but my Hook Charge will.

Wait... the 1+3 on that string still comes out on block? Or are you talking about inputting it, but it doesn't come out on block and you are just following up with hook charge during that advantage from the b12?