General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero XL Cyber Sub-Zero Discussion Thread

[Harlequin969]

God this character is so much fun. Honestly even with the slower ball nerf, he still gets low 30s meterless with DE iceball. The corner carry is huge even if you end a combo in Drone summon instead of slide. The corner vortex is still there. F2 is a good spacing tool. If they respect it start doing f34 instead. In the corner he can do solid 27-30% into the setup. Dive kicks aren't the best but it's just practice for me personally. CSZ still lives just has a slightly different gameplan.

 

[Kindred]

God this character is so much fun. Honestly even with the slower ball nerf, he still gets low 30s meterless with DE iceball. The corner carry is huge even if you end a combo in Drone summon instead of slide. The corner vortex is still there. F2 is a good spacing tool. If they respect it start doing f34 instead. In the corner he can do solid 27-30% into the setup. Dive kicks aren't the best but it's just practice for me personally. CSZ still lives just has a slightly different gameplan.

I wish I could share your sentiment. I just find him frustrating to play. He has that early MK9 ermac feel. Whereby he destroyed players that arent very good but seriously suffers against really good players. You're forced to work 5 times harder for a win despite being the same skill level as your opponent when facing better players.

 

[Harlequin969]

I wish I could share your sentiment. I just find him frustrating to play. He has that early MK9 ermac feel. Whereby he destroyed players that arent very good but seriously suffers against really good players. You're forced to work 5 times harder for a win despite being the same skill level as your opponent when facing better players.

I've yet to face anyone high level yet, but I do understand that. I can't drop anything if I want to get anything started with this character. I also played Smoke on release though and he suffered the same momentum based problem imo so I'm used to it.

 

[RM Ree]

I spent a pretty good deal of time in the lab tonight, tooling around with what wake-ups are stuffed by bomb set-ups. I'm finding that opponents who attempt to punish our new HTB routes with armored wake-ups are heavily punishable. I was able to hit 45% meterless in one case, shown below.

Vs. Raiden, (corner) jip, 111 xx ice ball, jip, b3u4 xx FDK, f43, NJP, 21, 114 xx slide, bomb (wake-up MB bobalay)

Punished with s4 xx slide (bomb explodes), f43 xx CDK, NJP, f43 xx CDK, 114 xx slide.

Although the "set-up" or more accurately, the bait, is iffy. But I think there are a number of possibilities similar to this. More to come.

 

[Harlequin969]

I think my timing was off because I did the bomb setup against a mileana and they raw rolled and punished me. Bomb hadn't even hit the ground yet.

 

[RM Ree]

I think my timing was off because I did the bomb setup against a mileana and they raw rolled and punished me. Bomb hadn't even hit the ground yet.

Yeah unfortunately, corner slide > bomb is punishable by every character in the game (wake-up throw). The practice needs to be tweaked for sure.

 

[Harlequin969]

Yeah unfortunately, corner slide > bomb is punishable by every character in the game (wake-up throw). The practice needs to be tweaked for sure.

No it was spear bomb. A few times they've armored out as well but that's cause I'm not using the armor break or baiting it.

 

[RM Ree]

No it was spear bomb. A few times they've armored out as well but that's cause I'm not using the armor break or baiting it.

How fast is Mileena's raw roll, like 9f?

Also, what are CSZ players using to armor break? 21 and f1 xx slide work meterless on slower attacks. I think we can do better.

Does "... f2, bomb, 21 xx DS (bomb explodes)" actually combo? Would 21 xx slide combo? Need MOAR lab time.

 

[RM Ree]

So I have a few little finds that are interesting and helpful, I think anyway.

21 xx slide does combo into bomb on hit (armor break or otherwise) dealing ~40%, and it's safe on block. Frame perfect might be exaggerating, but I had varying degrees of success vs Tempest MB spin. The take away is that it works.

Our go-to punish when we bait an armored wake-up on cornered opponents should be s4 xx slide > bomb for 40+% meterless. I realize it's not possible on everyone, but I'll eventually make a punish type list... Unless someone else wants to lab that out for me . So far it works on Raiden MB bobalay and SZ MB slide.

Another thing is CSZ has a safe jip after slide vs. 10f armored wake-ups (Goro MB chest bump) or slower, and will armor break/ trade with 17f wake-ups (Kotal MB OH sword) when followed with 1112 string. This is similar to Cryomancer's post hammer knock down and could be useful when attempting to jail into our high hitting pressure strings.

 

[Harlequin969]

Often times I find myself mistiming the htbs on an icebomb in the corner but I thought about something. Icebomb is hella plus. So instead of going for a htb sometimes we can hold block and then go for a guranteed 50/50

 

[RM Ree]

Often times I find myself mistiming the htbs on an icebomb in the corner but I thought about something. Icebomb is hella plus. So instead of going for a htb sometimes we can hold block and then go for a guranteed 50/50

A lot of people are leaning towards the jump-out since Pig released his "how to beat Triborg" video. I think you've gotta draw some kind of line between baiting the armor and jailing into the bomb (in some cases, you can do both).

 

[Harlequin969]

A lot of people are leaning towards the jump-out since Pig released his "how to beat Triborg" video. I think you've gotta draw some kind of line between baiting the armor and jailing into the bomb (in some cases, you can do both).

I haven't watched that video yet but I'll probably head over to it now.
Also can you explain your 21 slide armor break setup. I think I get it, use 21, 1 hits and then slide which should be fast enough to break armor, and then the bomb explodes to freeze them.

Edit: Watched it. Didn't know some of that Sektor stuff. But for CSZ there are tools around just making them eat the bomb which gives advantage so it's not as bad.

 

[RM Ree]

I haven't watched that video yet but I'll probably head over to it now.
Also can you explain your 21 slide armor break setup. I think I get it, use 21, 1 hits and then slide which should be fast enough to break armor, and then the bomb explodes to freeze them.

Edit: Watched it. Didn't know some of that Sektor stuff. But for CSZ there are tools around just making them eat the bomb which gives advantage so it's not as bad.

Yes, the 21 armor break set-up is basically exactly what it sounds like; 21 hitting fast enough to break armor. However, 21 doesn't combo into bomb in the usual set-up (end f2 ~ bomb), nor does it combo if you use 21 xx DS like the f13 xx DS string will (there is a bug where DS seems to add extra hitstun). So, the combo becomes 21 xx slide (bomb explodes), b2, jik, 21, 114 xx slide - 38% or b2, ji2, f43 xx CDK, f2 - 35%. Naturally the question will come to mind, "Is that safe?" The answer is "mostly, yes," as the only characters who can punish it are Kung Lao, Reptile, and maybe Mileena. Use meter to make this conversion more reliable.

I'm labbing the MU more, so expect more to come of this. This MU seems in CSZ's favor.

 

[RM Ree]

@Harlequin969 regarding jumping out of set-ups; if you read you're opponent will try for it, a damaging metered counter is jik xx MB FDK (bomb explodes), f43 xx CDK, NJP, 21, 114 xx slide - 37%, 1 bar. It option selects into MB Dive Kick so it's meter friendly, but could corner CSZ. Is this worth? I also saw REO using ji1 (whiff) xx Dive Kick which, if timed properly will beat all jump out attempts, as well as WU block (beaten by delayed WU?).

@YOMI REO inspired by your set with M2Dave, I hit the lab and found some MU specific stuff.

• Tremor cannot wake-up armor after slide ender if CSZ continues to pressure. Safe jump ji2 > 111 breaks both MB Stone Slam and MB Rock Blast clean. His options are block, delayed wake-up and (unless cornered) back dash.

This next section revolves around Tremor's tech roll options.

• If Tremor tech rolls the f2 (or NJK) ender while in the corner, CSZ can again break all armor options. Also, the extra time spent tech rolling makes MB Rock Blast useless as the set-up bomb will freeze regardless of CSZ's follow up.
• However, if CSZ refrains from freezing mid-combo and ends with the 114 xx Ice Bomb set-up, Tremor is forced to tech roll or he ends up in the same position as the previous bullet. Tremor must identify CSZ's combo route and tech appropriately to restore his armor options.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

I always make an effort to keep my "Paulo Requests" to a minimum. But I feel as though this warrants some attention from @colt I don't imagine it was something intended to make it into the current state of the game.

Sektor, Cyrax & Smoke all have special moves that combo without meter from F13. Smoke will launch, Cyrax will recapture, Sektor teleport.

Why then is Cyber Sub Zero the only one required to use meter to get his Ice Ball to connect? I could almost understand B1/3 not being able to combo. Even though Cyrax and Sektor both can combo from B1/B3/F4 and F13 regardless of space.

I don't believe CSZ is bad, his corner mix ups are still there and he remains one of the more mobile characters in the game. That being said, he has lower than average damage and lacks one of the more basic tools that his counter parts get.

For the record I'm aware that the CSZ has discussed many of these points already, I'm just curious as to why these changes were made if they were intentional or if the character will get some of his older tools back during a later Hot Fix.

 

[RM Ree]

So, f43 whiffs on crouch blocking opponents sometimes, often in the corner. Making me pretty sad, NRS.

 

[Harlequin969]

So, f43 whiffs on crouch blocking opponents sometimes, often in the corner. Making me pretty sad, NRS.

Yeah, you can crouch under the 3 and make it whiff entirely. That's been known for awhile

 

[RM Ree]

Yeah, you can crouch under the 3 and make it whiff entirely. That's been known for awhile

More posting it next to the @colt post, not cuz it's new or anything... But just because if you're blocking, high attacks should make contact.

It's bad enough NRS pooped all over this character with some of the harshest nerfs we've seen yet, but the basic MKX mechanics don't even work with him... #makeMKgreatagain #buffKitana

 

[Harlequin969]

More posting it next to the @colt post, not cuz it's new or anything... But just because if you're blocking, high attacks should make contact. #make MK great again

I agree. I started with smoke so imagine all the +2 moves that got neutral ducked or just whiffed cause fuck frame data. I cry

 

[RM Ree]

Can we discuss the CSZ corner meta a bit?

On occasion, I've been using 114 xx bomb on block instead of raw 114 for the +2f. It's pretty safe, often unexpected. I get a lot of counter pokes and/ or jump outs. Counter poke is beaten by reversal throw into bomb and NJP beats the jump out. There are obvious ways out of this, but it's another tool.

Also, b2 xx ice bomb after f2 ender causes the panic jump almost every time. I usually meet these with jik > 114 xx ice ball. The times it doesn't, you get a 50/50 from b1/ b3 distance.

Thoughts? Am I out of my mind yet?

 

[Matador Fiend]

This character is so frustrating to play against an opponent who knows what to do. Sad really

 

[RM Ree]

Can we upload some of these frustrating matches in the match footage thread? I'm never really feeling like I'm at a disadvantage with him.

 

[RM Ree]

I'm working on an in-depth look at CSZ's corner set-ups. Right now I'm including b3d4, f43 xx CDK, f13 xx DS and 21... throw. Any suggestions on other set ups I should include?

 

[The_Tile]

I'm working on an in-depth look at CSZ's corner set-ups. Right now I'm including b3d4, f43 xx CDK, f13 xx DS and 21... throw. Any suggestions on other set ups I should include?

21, IADK. I've not looked properly post patch but pre patch this was dirty when used along with 21, throw.

 

[DarksydeDash]

So I was poking around the Cyrax thread and they came up with double bomb setups that destroy armor and tech rolls. We would be able to do the same thing theoretically as long as we don't freeze the opponent in a combo. Anyone been experimenting with this?