General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero XL Cyber Sub-Zero Discussion Thread

[The_Tile]

B3d4 works vs. delayed WU and f43 xx CDK works vs tech roll. iaCDK is good as well.

Unless something has changed, F43xxCDK doesn't work on hit cause F43 launches them too high, unless you use the ExDK. Pre patch it didnt anyway.

 

[RM Ree]

Unless something has changed, F43xxCDK doesn't work on hit cause F43 launches them too high, unless you use the ExDK. Pre patch it didnt anyway.

You're right, I was assuming they'd block until the CDK ~ bomb.

EDIT: But f43 ~ bomb hits I think. Is it easy enough to hit/ block confirm? My muscle memory demands I dive kick lol

 

[The_Tile]

You're right, I was assuming they'd block until the CDK ~ bomb.

EDIT: But f43 ~ bomb hits I think. Is it easy enough to hit/ block confirm? My muscle memory demands I dive kick lol

Ah, dunno why i never thought of that. I'm not at my xbox to try right now but id assume so, might take a bit of getting used to though.

 

[14K]

Sorry for the delay guys, i had to work pretty late yesterday and couldnt test anymore tech or share. But heres what iv been working on:

So after taking a look at our current HTBs i see the problem is that they have enough time to just get out if you miss time it just a lil bit, this is because we use our freeze "token" to start the combo, meaning we cant drop the bomb as an ender, but what if we didnt use our freeze to start the combo!
Thats what got me thinking, that if we mix it up and start the combo with B3U4 we can go into the same old combo but instead end it with 114xxCbomb or standing4 into Cbomb ( both give you diferent setup times ) actually giving us a perfect timing to do 213 which is an overhead that hits pretty much at the same time as the bomb exploding giving us the same freeze as any of our previous setups...

Now i know 114 and/or standing 4 are not HKDs but they actually give us enouth time to set up the HTBs because we cancel the normal into bomb, which inherently is faster than getting a HKD with F2 and dropping the bomb...

B3U4 is obviously not safe, but its a low starter and any other mix up into freeze is also not safe, so its not like we are adding extra risk into the equation... I tried this online a couple times before i had to go, but to set it up i mostly used the following: F1 baits, its non committal so you dont have to go for this every time, you can still resort to the OH or more baiting, the other option is that if i spent my freeze already instead of ending the combo in F2 ill just meterburn grab into the B3U4 to do this setup...

Its still a guess game ofc because with 213 you can slow armor break some characters, but obviously not all, so if they decide to spend meter its character dependent if you win or they... for instance Kung Lao will take 1 hit of your string but wont be fast enough to escape the freeze of the bomb if this is done correctly.. Its not the best thing in the world but i had some success applying it in actual matches

The other thing im still testing out is to setup the HTB in a way that when you jump the camera follows you hiding the bomb making it really hard to know when to block, but i still need to work it out better its not quite there yet, dont even know if i got something here or not, but the concept is very gimmicky which i like the idea of..

EDIT: ill still keep hiting the lab see if i find anything at all that would help us, but so far this is it, so if you guys wanna test it or play around with the idea of this setup maybe something will come to you guys and we can find still even better

 

[14K]

Just found something out that i had no clue OO, everyone in the world might know this already but i seriously never knew you could do this, if you Drone Burn B2 it doesnt take away your bounce, so you can NJP and still bounce the character... interesting stuff... always learning soemthing new

 

[ThePunisher026]

I'd like to clear something up for us that want Triborg to be touched up a little bit.

1 - There was so much going into the character they we all can see they obviously put into Triborg, only for them to dumb the character so far down to the point we feel bad when we play against people online who are not aware of the changes.

2 - We spent money to get what we want and yet, we were only able to enjoy what we bought for a limited time because of this downgrade. Had we known ahead of time what they wanted to do to Triborg, I'm sure some of us wouldn't have wanted to buy him. Some of us just bought the characters individually, y'know?

3 - We ALL know that learning a character takes time. But the downgrades are so great that it doesn't even feel like Triborg anymore. It feels like a totally different and lamer character. Ever since Mortal Kombat XL came out, I literally wrote down his entire frame chart against other characters. It took a long friggin time and now it's useless. You guys can look at my player profile on PSN (ThePunisher026) and see my record with Triborg because of how much I studied and prepared to get into tournaments with specifically Cyber Sub Zero.

4 - Cyrax has to struggle so hard to get damage now. It's embarassing compared to what other characters can squeeze out with no problem. I can get a 50% damage combo with Jacqui with only just burning one bar AND a 47% with NO bars. Making a character slower and weaker kind of seems like they intentionally wanted Triborg to suck in overall matchups against the other characters.

5 - Slowing down the ice ball is unnecessary considering most of the other moves he already has was made slower. Hardly being able to combo into it really highly makes it unfair for the character to be useable against the other rushdown characters like Johnny, D'Vorah, Lao etc. If we get an offense against any of the rush characters, it's not like we can instantly turn the fight around by doing heavy damage. Now we're also limited to how far we can take the match because of the mid screen vortexes that don't exist anymore.

Again guys, I put a LOT of work into the character and I won't say "I'm the best Cyber Sub ever" but I will say this, I was good because of the work I did. The overall nerf to Triborg mains really just feels like robbery at this point.

 

[RM Ree]

1 - There was so much going into the character they we all can see they obviously put into Triborg, only for them to dumb the character so far down to the point we feel bad when we play against people online who are not aware of the changes

I played a guy with a mic not too long ago that laughed at me for picking CSZ, saying things like "he's useless now" and "I hope you know they nerfed him!" The match did not go how he thought it would, and he ended up quitting on me.

I've always been a character loyalist. It may be foolish, but I'm going to keep fighting the "good" fight. I don't blame anyone for dropping him either, mind you. I'll continue to share what I might find and hope to bring some non-believers back little by little.

 

[ThePunisher026]

I played a guy with a mic not too long ago that laughed at me for picking CSZ, saying things like "he's useless now" and "I hope you know they nerfed him!" The match did not go how he thought it would, and he ended up quitting on me.

I've always been a character loyalist. It may be foolish, but I'm going to keep fighting the "good" fight. I don't blame anyone for dropping him either, mind you. I'll continue to share what I might find and hope to bring some non-believers back little by little.

Yeah, actually last night I gave Cyber Sub a run online and I did okay. I still can't help but feel the ice ball is overdone. It does pain me to go against the Cyber Sub players that don't know about the nerfs though, lol. The female matches are too difficult though because of the hitboxes. You're limited to how much you can do midscreen.

 

[Steven_a]

I wouldn't mind if they made drone enhanced ice ball the same start up as before the patch.

 

[DarksydeDash]

What is the success you guys have been having with f12DE? I'm thinking it is our best punisher because it gives us free bombs.

 

[Steven_a]

What is the success you guys have been having with f12DE? I'm thinking it is our best punisher because it gives us free bombs.

I've had a lot of success with f12DE but never really use bombs unless it's in the corner. I generally do f12 DE > 21 > f131xxSlide and summon a drone after that. F12DE is +2 on block iirc so you can check people for mashing unless they armor the gap between f12 :^(

 

[Revenger7x]

What is the success you guys have been having with f12DE? I'm thinking it is our best punisher because it gives us free bombs.

I like F4xxIce Pew myself for whiff punish

 

[DDutchguy]

I like F4xxIce Pew myself for whiff punish

F4~Iceball has a tendency to not connect from max range though.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I like F4xxIce Pew myself for whiff punish

Its good unless you have the drone. Because it is negative and extremely hard to hit confirm. :\

 

[ThePunisher026]

F4~Iceball has a tendency to not connect from max range though.

F4 does punish a lot of things, but I've been having issues punishing against female characters. I used to punish with F13 but that doesn't work anymore :'(

 

[Harlequin969]

A few quick questions for CSZ:
When you use ice ball DE is it less negative? I found one of my training partners wasn't able to punish it as easily as a regular ice ball. He was using KJ standing 1 string.

When trying to work in the neutral I know that CSZ kinda struggled with this before and all the borgs have shitty pokes but what are you guys doing when they get up close. I use f2 for spacing and bombs when I can but in my face I've got next to nothing to work with at least from my experience.

I find myself not going for bombs outside of the neutral. I try to end a lot of my combos into drone summon because I think drones > htbs atm. Especially with DE iceball getting to 30% combos. Has anyone found success doing this?

What is the success you guys have been having with f12DE? I'm thinking it is our best punisher because it gives us free bombs.

In the corner I use f12, d1 (max height), 114, close bomb.
I think someone posted in the combo forum this one, f12DE, Njp, jik, 21, f131 slide. Of course you can change slide to bomb. It netted like 30% ish or more. Can't remember at the moment.

 

[Revenger7x]

A few quick questions for CSZ:
When you use ice ball DE is it less negative? I found one of my training partners wasn't able to punish it as easily as a regular ice ball. He was using KJ standing 1 string.

When trying to work in the neutral I know that CSZ kinda struggled with this before and all the borgs have shitty pokes but what are you guys doing when they get up close. I use f2 for spacing and bombs when I can but in my face I've got next to nothing to work with at least from my experience.

I find myself not going for bombs outside of the neutral. I try to end a lot of my combos into drone summon because I think drones > htbs atm. Especially with DE iceball getting to 30% combos. Has anyone found success doing this?


In the corner I use f12, d1 (max height), 114, close bomb.
I think someone posted in the combo forum this one, f12DE, Njp, jik, 21, f131 slide. Of course you can change slide to bomb. It netted like 30% ish or more. Can't remember at the moment.

I like using b2 and b2 cancels in the neutral
Oki I use 212, 213, 21 slide unless they know the gaps

 

[RM Ree]

When trying to work in the neutral I know that CSZ kinda struggled with this before and all the borgs have shitty pokes but what are you guys doing when they get up close. I use f2 for spacing and bombs when I can but in my face I've got next to nothing to work with at least from my experience.

Up close I guess you can narrow down options by thinking about why an opponent is up close. Are they pressuring you, or are you pressuring them? Who's at advantage, if any? For the time being, I'll assume neutral and take a few, slight liberties.

D1 vs. D3. D1 is 6f, but I don't think too many people use this over d3 unless you're dealing with a < 7f gap in pressure and you've got no meter (DF Liu Kang?).

Neutral jump and forward/ backward jump are pretty fast, what like ~5f? As such NJP or jump out are good options, the latter leading to a dive kick whiff punish in many cases. Even if you're hit, they opponent gets an unorthodox juggle.

B2 is pretty great, whether you cancel into special or let it rock. And the options it leads into on hit are amazing (~50% route w/ successful set-up). Include drones in the equation and this option gets that much better as its +2 on block.

Throw is a surprisingly good option. 10f, makes neutral pokes negative when used as a reversal. Usually successful since opponents wait for your poke to retaliate.

Backdash is literally made of dicks, coded into the system. Rarely ever works for me, always get poked out or full combo punished.

TL; DR it's a lot to chew on. You have to block, or take risks to get out.

 

[Harlequin969]

I like using b2 and b2 cancels in the neutral
Oki I use 212, 213, 21 slide unless they know the gaps

B2 is pretty great, whether you cancel into special or let it rock. And the options it leads into on hit are amazing (~50% route w/ successful set-up). Include drones in the equation and this option gets that much better as its +2 on block.

I remember reading that B2 can function as an impromptu backdash and get full combo punishes. Is the timing strict for that because I rarely get it to work properly when I do go fo it.

 

[RM Ree]

I remember reading that B2 can function as an impromptu backdash and get full combo punishes. Is the timing strict for that because I rarely get it to work properly when I do go fo it.

Since it is a command normal and not a special (no reversal/ wake-up window), it has to be timed properly. It is not usually difficult, not unless you're trying to shoot string gaps with it (possible, but frame tight). I'm sure you've seen people say it before, but it's best used to anti-air, as it naturally evades and trip guards. In the close neutral like what was mentioned, you're looking for that in-your-face spacing to whiff punish a poke or play footsies.

 

[Harlequin969]

Since it is a command normal and not a special (no reversal/ wake-up window), it has to be timed properly. It is not usually difficult, not unless you're trying to shoot string gaps with it (possible, but frame tight). I'm sure you've seen people say it before, but it's best used to anti-air, as it naturally evades and trip guards. In the close neutral like what was mentioned, you're looking for that in-your-face spacing to whiff punish a poke or play footsies.

Does it work in the corner? Like are you actually invincible or are you just quickly sliding back to dodge the attack.

 

[RM Ree]

Does it work in the corner? Like are you actually invincible or are you just quickly sliding back to dodge the attack.

If CSZ is in the corner, it's a bad option. No invincibility unfortunately, he's just fast.

 

[DarksydeDash]

So found a way to get 35% (with drone call) in the corner and into a setup. Basically after a bomb hits, do B2, 4, F43xx Close Dive kick, F2. It does way less damage scaling.

 

[Harlequin969]

So found a way to get 35% (with drone call) in the corner and into a setup. Basically after a bomb hits, do B2, 4, F43xx Close Dive kick, F2. It does way less damage scaling.

How're you setting up bombs period? Since we can't summon a bomb out of a freeze or even a freeze in the corner. Does f2 still have enough advantage to throw out a bomb?

 

[DarksydeDash]

How're you setting up bombs period? Since we can't summon a bomb out of a freeze or even a freeze in the corner. Does f2 still have enough advantage to throw out a bomb?

Yes.