Why Kustom “Variations” are needed for competitive play (Hear me out)

[JSF]

I am aware that I’m most likely in the minority with this mindset but I completely believe that we should be able to use kustom variations in competitive play for MK11 based on how the game is designed so far. By that I mean we should be able to choose which specials we want to use beyond the base moveset.


How would it work?

Well designing and naming and customizing your own variations is already in the game and being advertised so that can stay as is but there should (and probable will be) a tournament mode just like INJ2 had. In MK11’s tournament mode it should be set up so instead of picking a variation at the select screen you instead pick your moves, and the moves already are set up to take 1, 2, or 3 slots so you’re picking 3 or less and I don’t see this taking much longer than picking a variation in MKX.


MKX 2.0?

Here is why we shouldn’t have 3 preset variations by the developers, we all have seen and played MKX. Every character has a variation that’s borderline useless in competitive or high level play, it became exactly what they said it wouldn’t and that was everyone picking the strongest variation and the others not even getting bugged to compensate unless the strong one was nerfed into the ground which doesn’t fix the problem. The overall balance wasn’t great either it wasn’t balanced in a way where if you struggled against one character you could just switch variation and do better, but that is exactly what MK11 could be if we could choose our own moves


So how would it be balanced?

It would actually be easier to balance these moves because they already have a balance aspect to them, if a one slot move is too good make it a two slot move, if two moves together are too powerful you can make them both 2 slots, you could do the same for buffing moves, if a move is never used because it’s 2 slots but isn’t too powerful make it 1 slot. Then you can still nerf or buff the traditional way of changing properties and frame data etc.

Let’s be honest NRS can’t make 3 or more equally useful and balanced variations. The last game was a counterpick fest with overpowered zoning. No NRS fighting game has been balanced, MKX was the closest so let us pick whatever moves we want and if you see something super broken just nerf it or make us give up other things to have it. I think this method would work out great. I love NRS games but I can’t have blind faith that things will be ok if they pick 3 preset variations because the last time they did it it didn’t work and the game after it was balanced worse. Anyone agree or strongly disagree? Let’s discuss
Also I typed this on my phone at work so sorry for any typos

Also PLEASE add an online ranking system you can literally copy what SFV did just give us SOMETHING

 

[kevkopdx]

Don’t you think, inevitably, their will be only one or two load outs that are better than the rest and we’ll end up in the same situation anyways?

I’m for locked variations just to ensure speedy character selection and for a more straightforward system of labbing matchups

 

[Mind Flex]

I love the idea of PLAYING my own custom variation in competitive. I HATE the idea of paying money to enter a tournament and losing to a random build that I've never seen or labbed against.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I though NRS said they aren't talking about this yet.

 

[RoGE]

Hmm... How about experimenting withONLINE custom variation tournaments? You'd skip the custom process entirely as everyone will have their loadouts saved and nothing is on the line, mostly for fun and to test and see what the best loadouts are.

 

[Slymind]

I love the idea of PLAYING my own custom variation in competitive. I HATE the idea of paying money to enter a tournament and losing to a random build that I've never seen or labbed against.

Is that any different than facing a player with a newfound tech that you didn't know? because variations or not, these are bound to happen.

 

[Crimea]

don't fool yourself. It won't be easier to balance kustom variations

 

[Marlow]

Hasn't this thread/discussion already been done?

 

[Mind Flex]

Is that any different than facing a player with a newfound tech that you didn't know? because variations or not, these are bound to happen.

You can download new tech from a character you understand in a single set. It's another thing to download the player, his tech, and a custom character that you are seeing for the first time in that same amount of time. And by YOU...I really just mean me. I'd be more on board if tournaments are at least 3 out of 5.

If I had to lean one way or the other I'd much rather pick to allow them because making custom variation is already fun just from theorycraft. 6 months from now all the extra studying wont matter anyways.

 

[cgerrr]

I'm totally for it: it produces creativity, replayability and depth. It's NRS job to balance moves, that any combination could be viable to the extent. And it's a competitive player 'job' to study those before tournaments.

 

[_CHINOCUDEIRO_]

Now think in a button check and....a kustom variation check of both players before EVERY match in every tournament

 

[TopTierHarley]

Now think in a button check and....a kustom variation check of both players before EVERY match in every tournament

Ban button checks, they can do it from the menu so there's reason for them.

 

[JSF]

Hasn't this thread/discussion already been done?

if it has i apologize i missed it...i work a lot

I love the idea of PLAYING my own custom variation in competitive. I HATE the idea of paying money to enter a tournament and losing to a random build that I've never seen or labbed against.

its the same as if someone played a variation in MKX that little to no people used like wrestler Jax or something, and im saying you should be able to see the moves they select at the character select screenso it isnt a secret what youre fighting against.

don't fool yourself. It won't be easier to balance kustom variations

it wouldnt be harder, if a move is too good or too cheap make it require you to give up other moves to keep it, same with buffing moves.

 

[SaltShaker]

I will say, I am now indifferent on the decision as I feel both can be equally effective.

The main knock I hear is "oh it's impossible to balance", but is it? Because with variations one can be built around one of the moves, and when you nerf/buff it, it can ultra buff or ultra nerf that variation/character altogether unintentionally (or buffing/nerfing normals that indirectly affect a variation). Look no further than MKX variations pre/post patches. With Kustom, if one move needs adjusting, you can adjust that move exclusively while the entire rest of the kit is in tact. Move is too strong? Nerf it while the entire moveset now makes more sense. This has already proven difficult with preset variations. Slot totals for specials also helps balance because you can't put an ultra powerful move (Geras time reversal) with another one, and some moves are 2 slots as well.

Even if you say "well what about the different combinations that can be put together", I am not buying this anymore either. Take that Kano stream we just watched. What three specials are you gonna put together that are so powerful they break the game? Let us say one is, the same way a variation can be. Why would it be less efficient to adjust one move out of ten available and hopefully not kill it, than an entire variation and hopefully not kill 1/3 of the moves? Not buying.

The only argument I kind of understand is not knowing as many MUs as easily, because you may run into someone using a unique setup you haven't seen before. Well, even here I don't sympathy, as I play Tekken almost daily. Yea sometimes you may run into Kuma where your MU knowledge is limited against his 100 moves on a 40 man roster, but it is life, and kudos to the Kuma player. Most good to great players will likely use the better moves anyway, and over time we'd learn all the moves regardless. If you get flustered once in a blue by a unique setup a couple of months into the game, the trade off might actually be worth it.

 

[Circus]

I understand why my thread was locked and why some of you are skeptical, so let me explain what @Marinjuana explained in his comment on the thread:

@ismael4790
@Gamer68
@TackyHaddock

Watch this clip:

https://clips.twitch.tv/SillyGlamorousWatermelonTwitchRPG


16 Bit, who goes on this forum daily and knows well what the competitive scene is asking for, said this about an online day1 tournament. He said "if you equip this". Is it one HELL OF a slip?

To me, it's clear that they haven't really been experimenting with any kind of tournament variations.

This late, someone like 16Bit would definitely know.

I know it's just an observation and not a confirm, but I truly don't see this going any other way tbh.

 

[Circus]

I will say, I am now indifferent on the decision as I feel both can be equally effective.

The main knock I hear is "oh it's impossible to balance", but is it? Because with variations one can be built around one of the moves, and when you nerf/buff it, it can ultra buff or ultra nerf that variation/character altogether unintentionally (or buffing/nerfing normals that indirectly affect a variation). Look no further than MKX variations pre/post patches. With Kustom, if one move needs adjusting, you can adjust that move exclusively while the entire rest of the kit is in tact. Move is too strong? Nerf it while the entire moveset now makes more sense. This has already proven difficult with preset variations. Slot totals for specials also helps balance because you can't put an ultra powerful move (Geras time reversal) with another one, and some moves are 2 slots as well.

Even if you say "well what about the different combinations that can be put together", I am not buying this anymore either. Take that Kano stream we just watched. What three specials are you gonna put together that are so powerful they break the game? Let us say one is, the same way a variation can be. Why would it be less efficient to adjust one move out of ten available and hopefully not kill it, than an entire variation and hopefully not kill 1/3 of the moves? Not buying.

The only argument I kind of understand is not knowing as many MUs as easily, because you may run into someone using a unique setup you haven't seen before. Well, even here I don't sympathy, as I play Tekken almost daily. Yea sometimes you may run into Kuma where your MU knowledge is limited against his 100 moves on a 40 man roster, but it is life, and kudos to the Kuma player. Most good to great players will likely use the better moves anyway, and over time we'd learn all the moves regardless. If you get flustered once in a blue by a unique setup a couple of months into the game, the trade off might actually be worth it.

Something to note on this thread too, is that some moves (even if they are 1 slot moves) can't be used in combination with other kustom variation moves:

Like here you can't use Bio-Magnetic Pull alongside Bio-Magnetic Trap.

And we know some kustom moves completely replace some character's base specials.

I think that even if there is some "broken combination" found that they won't have to go to great lengths to nerf a single move just because of a combination.

This means that if you use one move from that "broken combination" in one of your own kustom sets, that you won't have to worry because they could just nerf the combo.

Like I said, I might just be naive, but the more I think about it, I really do think that the kustom system in tournament play is the way to go even in the long run.

 

[Rathalos]

Watching all the new characters.
I mean, like the way the specials are, I just don't see 3 set variations working.
Custom variations kinda need to be a thing.

They just need a damn good UI for it to work.
Both for selecting them on the select screen to make it fast and snappy.
And also, in match so you know what your opponent has selected at all times.

 

[SaltShaker]

Something to note on this thread too, is that some moves (even if they are 1 slot moves) can't be used in combination with other kustom variation moves:

Like here you can't use Bio-Magnetic Pull alongside Bio-Magnetic Trap.

And we know some kustom moves completely replace some character's base specials.

I think that even if there is some "broken combination" found that they won't have to go to great lengths to nerf a single move just because of a combination.

This means that if you use one move from that "broken combination" in one of your own kustom sets, that you won't have to worry because they could just nerf the combo.

Like I said, I might just be naive, but the more I think about it, I really do think that the kustom system in tournament play is the way to go even in the long run.

Yep agreed. As much as people complain about being counterpicked I think it would help against that too. If your character is solid enough, and you have enough mastery of them, it's a lot easier to adjust to your MU adjusting your kit if you didn't like what you played, than moving to an entirely new character. That's because you'll have mastered your entire kit with said character than say, "I play Summoner Quan Chi but never even touched the other two variations, I switched to Bone Shaper Shinnok". You'll do something like "guy keeps jumping with his strong jump character, let me replace Magnetic Pull with Bio-Magnetic Trap". Sounds better to me.

The more they show of this game it's really starting to make sense for Kustom. These are not purposely overpowered Inj2 gear moves. They aren't problematic and it fits the game. I've definitely come around to it now.

 

[stokedAF]

The only way that could work is to have a community that accepts an unbalanced game. People love marvel even though it’s broken. Have the option to make a tournament have the extra input amplify mechanic and the button holds for Krushing blows. People that know characters will be the best regardless of the variation.

Options are the best outcome to me. To have separate “anything goes” tournaments wouldn’t hurt anyone, it’s Mortal Kombat. But this is coming from someone who would watch a top 8, not pay to play on any serious level lol.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

While I find custom variation to be a fun gimmick for casual play, I think it's a bad idea for competitive gameplay.

You main point is that everybody will focus on the strongest variation, but it will be the same thing for custom variations. A few months after the release of the game, there will be one or two optimized kits per character that everybody will use in tournament, so it won't really change from the current situation.

It will make counter pick unviable, unless you allow the players to set up 5 to 6 variations for different characters before each game. It will be quickly boring for both the players and the viewers.

It's also harder to learn the match ups considering there are a ton of possibilities for each character, I don't think it's fair to face an opponent with a kit you weren't able to study before.

 

[spidey300]

we have absolutely no idea what the competitive settings will be like because they're being super vague about it. they only talk about custom because casuals

 

[Vslayer]

Even if in a tournament setting you'd encounter some move combination you aren't used to, isn't being versatile and coming up with a gameplan on the fly a part of being a good fighter? Even if there are set variations, people will play them differently and ultimately, that's the hardest thing about playing other people. I think it's possible for players to quickly go over each other's custom variations before starting the bracket. It may bring some unknown variables, but I think this will make matches may more entertaining to watch and play.

I think realistically tho, NRS will make pre-set variations but not necessarily the default ones they've shown. Like take CrossFit competitions, for example, you will get the workouts a few days before to prepare for them, but it's never the same which means you need to be versatile and to at least be able to do all lifts and moves. I feel that's the route they should take, but that's just me.

 

[pure.Wasted]

It's also harder to learn the match ups considering there are a ton of possibilities for each character, I don't think it's fair to face an opponent with a kit you weren't able to study before.

If it's unfair for you to play against your opponent's unique kit, and it's unfair for your opponent to play against your unique kit...

Doesn't that mean it's fair?

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

If it's unfair for you to play against your opponent's unique kit, and it's unfair for your opponent to play against your unique kit...

Doesn't that mean it's fair?

Touché

 

[DanCock]

im actually hoping that we can use our Kustom move sets in kompetitive play/tournaments. make it so on the select screen we can quickly do our button Config and our Kharacter config. give us a limited time to do this as well, this way some jack ass wont keep us waiting for themselves to decide what they want.

this system isnt game breaking like the gear system was and it looks as if it is being balanced.