Why Kustom “Variations” are needed for competitive play (Hear me out)

[SaltShaker]

While I find custom variation to be a fun gimmick for casual play, I think it's a bad idea for competitive gameplay.

You main point is that everybody will focus on the strongest variation, but it will be the same thing for custom variations. A few months after the release of the game, there will be one or two optimized kits per character that everybody will use in tournament, so it won't really change from the current situation.

It will make counter pick unviable, unless you allow the players to set up 5 to 6 variations for different characters before each game. It will be quickly boring for both the players and the viewers.

It's also harder to learn the match ups considering there are a ton of possibilities for each character, I don't think it's fair to face an opponent with a kit you weren't able to study before.

Here's a counter argument to that-

Say Character X has 12 specials for Kustom. Now say the variation system breaks these into 3 base moves, and 3/3/3 per variation. Once player Y is using the character, it is true that he may say "I prefer to rotate these 8 moves in my kit depending on MU or stage, I don't use the other 4 ever". With so much availability, I don't see people exclusively using the same three moves only. Compare this to MKX, where the overwhelming majority simply played the strongest variation of a character. So many three variation characters ended up one variation characters. I'd argue custom will allow more moves to be in play from characters because they aren't restricted to variations. You also avoid the "after one nerf that variation is never seen again" aspect too.

Like the Rath guy said, it would have to be set at the character select screen before you go into the match in the UI. Kinda like how the old school games did it on the go when you selected grooves or styles or etc. Character - Moves - Stage - Fight. That way it can be quick, around the same as preset would be.

In the beginning of the game maybe, but 6 months later? I don't think so. It's only so many times you can face Kano and his specials before you have seen them enough times to know how to fight. And remember, some specials replace others, so you aren't learning those combinations because they don't exist. One of my main training partners in Tekken main's Lei, a guy who has over 200 moves, where over half of them are viable. Any MU played enough becomes experience. If you don't know the MU though it would have a bigger effect than what happens now, but I'm not sold it's necessarily a bad thing.

Ultimately if they keep preset I'll still play until the end of time, but I am definitely open to either option. I think NRS would be able to successfully pull off either (improved preset variation system of MKX history or succeed with Kustoms).

 

[MadPropz101]

All moves should be usable in competitive play. I hated never using all those cool Inj2 moves because they were not tournament viable...some of them were kinda op though, but I think they should give it a chance in MK11 and try to balance it out.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Here's a counter argument to that-

Say Character X has 12 specials for Kustom. Now say the variation system breaks these into 3 base moves, and 3/3/3 per variation. Once player Y is using the character, it is true that he may say "I prefer to rotate these 8 moves in my kit depending on MU or stage, I don't use the other 4 ever". With so much availability, I don't see people exclusively using the same three moves only. Compare this to MKX, where the overwhelming majority simply played the strongest variation of a character. So many three variation characters ended up one variation characters. I'd argue custom will allow more moves to be in play from characters because they aren't restricted to variations. You also avoid the "after one nerf that variation is never seen again" aspect too.

Like the Rath guy said, it would have to be set at the character select screen before you go into the match in the UI. Kinda like how the old school games did it on the go when you selected grooves or styles or etc. Character - Moves - Stage - Fight. That way it can be quick, around the same as preset would be.

In the beginning of the game maybe, but 6 months later? I don't think so. It's only so many times you can face Kano and his specials before you have seen them enough times to know how to fight. And remember, some specials replace others, so you aren't learning those combinations because they don't exist. One of my main training partners in Tekken main's Lei, a guy who has over 200 moves, where over half of them are viable. Any MU played enough becomes experience. If you don't know the MU though it would have a bigger effect than what happens now, but I'm not sold it's necessarily a bad thing.

Ultimately if they keep preset I'll still play until the end of time, but I am definitely open to either option. I think NRS would be able to successfully pull off either (improved preset variation system of MKX history or succeed with Kustoms).

I understand what you meant here. Even if I still prefer default variatons for tournament standard, probably because I still don't understand completely how custom variations work, I think you made a valid point here. I trust NRS to take the right decision here.

I like to play games the way they're imaginated by the developement team, so I hope I'll still get my default variations

 

[Deleted member 59910]

The only way that could work is to have a community that accepts an unbalanced game. People love marvel even though it’s broken. Have the option to make a tournament have the extra input amplify mechanic and the button holds for Krushing blows. People that know characters will be the best regardless of the variation.

Options are the best outcome to me. To have separate “anything goes” tournaments wouldn’t hurt anyone, it’s Mortal Kombat. But this is coming from someone who would watch a top 8, not pay to play on any serious level lol.

Is mortal kombat x balanced? I feel more comfortable if I can adjust my moves than waiting for an update trying (and failing) to balance the game.

 

[stokedAF]

Is mortal kombat x balanced? I feel more comfortable if I can adjust my moves than waiting for an update trying (and failing) to balance the game.

To the point of being broken? I’m not a good judge of that honestly. It wasnt unbalanced to me though. I’m thinking of matches where everyone just kept doing the aqua man trident pokes. Boring shit like that.

They do have a tough time keeping things balanced sometimes and custom variations would only make it worse. I do get your point though and it makes sense. Fix your own gameplay to fix the problem would have to be the answer in custom variations.

 

[HeroesNZ]

I think Kustom is necessary, you really don't want to be watering down MK11 anymore than it already has been. And the specials are all fine, nothing is super whacky or busted like I2 gear

Just needs a good UI and I say def let it rock. Gonna be super disappointed if we end up using preset variations

 

[PetulantWaste]

I'm not a tournament player so feel free to write off what I say if you are but I think kustom variations could put us at the forefront of fighting games. What other fighting game allows you that much freedom to build a character to your heart's desire? It will cause some time control issues. I suggest that players be asked to write down their builds (2 or 3) BEFORE their match and be locked into set build. That way there's not a counter-pick battle where people wait to see their opponent's build before creating their own. Of course, if you want to play many characters it would be a long list but asking players to make a list of 4-5 character builds that they plan to use may not be asking too much. After all, it could be enforced with a timer. You have 20 seconds to make your build. If you don't have it done then you forfeit the match at the TC's discretion...

I'm not saying it'll be a perfect system I'm just throwing out possible solutions. I would love to watch matches and think "that's so-and-so's Erron Black" or "that's this guy's Kano" because I recognize their specific build and how it fits into their identity as a player.

As far as possible cheap builds, that's exactly what's fun about experimenting, finding a perfect build for YOU as a player to shine. Any obviously broken or super OP stuff is gonna get nerfed or patched.

 

[SaladPlateLover]

I think low key people want custom moves but there's a stigma toward balance. They say balance is everything. Well I say, don't make balance excessive

 

[DDustiNN]

Even if in a tournament setting you'd encounter some move combination you aren't used to, isn't being versatile and coming up with a gameplan on the fly a part of being a good fighter?

I tried saying this before and was chastised for it. Apparently the only thing that matters is memorizing frame data.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

If so... Ability select cannot be hidden. I should be able to know what move set the opponent has before I get hit with an ability-only move I couldn't possibly be ready for. In all other fighting games, you know what to expect when the character is selected. Hidden variation select in MKX was different because you'd see the name at round start. A variation name like "Kustom 1" would not be helpful. There should also be a timer on ability select. Nothing would kill hype more than 20 seconds of counterpicking abilities.

 

[DDustiNN]

While I find custom variation to be a fun gimmick for casual play, I think it's a bad idea for competitive gameplay.

You main point is that everybody will focus on the strongest variation, but it will be the same thing for custom variations. A few months after the release of the game, there will be one or two optimized kits per character that everybody will use in tournament, so it won't really change from the current situation.

It will make counter pick unviable, unless you allow the players to set up 5 to 6 variations for different characters before each game. It will be quickly boring for both the players and the viewers.

It's also harder to learn the match ups considering there are a ton of possibilities for each character, I don't think it's fair to face an opponent with a kit you weren't able to study before.

You wouldn’t have to “set up” 5 or 6 different variations. The idea is to just quickly select moves from a list via the character select screen, similar to selecting variations. And it won’t take long. People will already know what they want to pick.

As for matchups... a real pro should be able to adapt and overcome.

 

[Sablicious]

Let me condense and consolidate all the naysayer spergs of wisdom into one, succinct statement (+ image):

WHAAAAAAAAAAA... MUH BALAAAAAAAAANCE!!... CALL A WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMBULANCE!!

PS: It'll never happen.
PPS: I, for one, would be well happy with a simple "free" mode, where any and all "Augments" and non-default specials could be equipped, in any manner players like... You know, to facilitate the radical idea of "customising the characters to play as way YOU like" (-Ed Boon)
PPPS: Which won't happen either, 'cause 99% of the play time would be spent in such a mode -- leaving the rest of the game near-exclusively for hapless "proe$" to flowchart BnB spam each other into comas in... Kind of like how no one plays vanilla SFV, only the "Mysterious Mod" version.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

After all the trailers and stuff so far... I'm for having customs be the competitive standard.

 

[Vslayer]

I tried saying this before and was chastised for it. Apparently the only thing that matters is memorizing frame data.

Don't you know that you can't have a different opinion? It's HERESY!

 

[Xelz]

I will say, I am now indifferent on the decision as I feel both can be equally effective.

The main knock I hear is "oh it's impossible to balance", but is it? Because with variations one can be built around one of the moves, and when you nerf/buff it, it can ultra buff or ultra nerf that variation/character altogether unintentionally (or buffing/nerfing normals that indirectly affect a variation). Look no further than MKX variations pre/post patches. With Kustom, if one move needs adjusting, you can adjust that move exclusively while the entire rest of the kit is in tact. Move is too strong? Nerf it while the entire moveset now makes more sense. This has already proven difficult with preset variations. Slot totals for specials also helps balance because you can't put an ultra powerful move (Geras time reversal) with another one, and some moves are 2 slots as well.

Even if you say "well what about the different combinations that can be put together", I am not buying this anymore either. Take that Kano stream we just watched. What three specials are you gonna put together that are so powerful they break the game? Let us say one is, the same way a variation can be. Why would it be less efficient to adjust one move out of ten available and hopefully not kill it, than an entire variation and hopefully not kill 1/3 of the moves? Not buying.

The only argument I kind of understand is not knowing as many MUs as easily, because you may run into someone using a unique setup you haven't seen before. Well, even here I don't sympathy, as I play Tekken almost daily. Yea sometimes you may run into Kuma where your MU knowledge is limited against his 100 moves on a 40 man roster, but it is life, and kudos to the Kuma player. Most good to great players will likely use the better moves anyway, and over time we'd learn all the moves regardless. If you get flustered once in a blue by a unique setup a couple of months into the game, the trade off might actually be worth it.

I'm coming around on this, too. Based on experience with Injustice 2's custom moves, the balance issues seemed tremendous. But the way NRS engineered custom moves this time around looks way better: moves cost points, the system can prevent certain moves from being combined with others to avoid broken builds, and NRS has refrained from custom moves that appear game breaking (except maybe Geras' forward time ability).

Plus, as others have pointed out, NRS' new custom move design might be easier to balance than variations because as single underpowered move won't impact all other moves in a build. Let's say a build uses three unique/custom moves. If one move isn't viable - it's underpowered, over-nerfed, whatever - then an entire variation, and therefore the other two moves in the build, won't see competitive play. But in custom variations, the build might be able to swap out the underpowered move for something else, therefore at least the two other moves still see use. So not only does this system buffer against non-viable moves, it could also ensure the character variety that NRS originally intended with MKX.

There could still be issues, and I'm not 100% sold, but I went from 0% to 75% sold And other genres have gone through transitions from standardized setups to custom loadouts. Call of Duty popularized custom loadouts in competitive FPS play. League of Legends in the MOBA space (which was really an offshoot of the RTS scene). In all cases, when handled properly, issues with customization weren't as profound as feared, and made those games more addictive and popular. And added a deeper level of competitive play.