Why isn't cartwheel punishable on block?

[UsedForGlue]

They aren't the same, roundhouse is hit confirming and overhead, cartwheel is not hit confirming but not overhead. So each one has it's own advantage IMO. I do agree it is dumb to have it able to be stringed after ms f1.

Roundhouse isn't overhead.

I just can't understand why a special move that launches and travels is that safe.

 

[UsedForGlue]

The projectile is good as is, I don't see anything wrong with it.

It has excellent recovery. And sonya players have no need to do it from anywhere under fullscreen, I think its rare to get a JIP punish on a sonya player throwing rings.

And for a character that doesn't zone with projectiles as a speciality , she makes it very difficult for characters that specialise in projectiles or long distance zoning to get started.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

My bad, it's not overhead, It's just not duck-able.

 

[THTB]

For a projectile of it's type, the recovery is actually among the best in the game. 15-20f startup for a projectile is average in this game, and it's recovery for a 20f standard projectile, it recovers the fastest. It's not easy to try to trade with it if your projectile isn't fast in the first place, or doesn't duck under it.

For a character who is so fierce up close, it's weird she'd have such a good projectile.

 

[Gabriel032]

It has excellent recovery. And sonya players have no need to do it from anywhere under fullscreen, I think its rare to get a JIP punish on a sonya player throwing rings.

And for a character that doesn't zone with projectiles as a speciality , she makes it very difficult for characters that specialise in projectiles or long distance zoning to get started.

I have the impression that you've never played Sonya against a heavy zoner, but that's OK.

 

[Gabriel032]

For a projectile of it's type, the recovery is actually among the best in the game. 15-20f startup for a projectile is average in this game, and it's recovery for a 20f standard projectile, it recovers the fastest. It's not easy to try to trade with it if your projectile isn't fast in the first place, or doesn't duck under it.

For a character who is so fierce up close, it's weird she'd have such a good projectile.

I agree that it's unusual, but it's not like Sonya needs to be nerfed at this point. What is needed is that people stop being so fucking lazy and start learning the matches and actually trying to make reads. This is obviously not directed to you. I agree with you, her projectile is above average to a rushdown character, but every rushdown char in this game is different and have their pros and cons.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

Roundhouse isn't overhead.

I just can't understand why a special move that launches and travels is that safe.

Only reason I can think of is pretty much everyone one of her 30% or more combos has it in it to keep damage going. I don't really recognize 1 dash 1 1 1 1 1 1 as a combo either.

Without it, you couldn't 2, 1, cartwheel b2,1, ect
you couldn't 11 4 cartwheel ect
Her combos would have pathetic damage without it to continue the combo I guess. Not the fact that it's safe, the fact that it travels and is a launcher. Being not safe on block would be fine with me.

 

[GamerBlake90]

It has excellent recovery. And sonya players have no need to do it from anywhere under fullscreen, I think its rare to get a JIP punish on a sonya player throwing rings.

And for a character that doesn't zone with projectiles as a speciality , she makes it very difficult for characters that specialise in projectiles or long distance zoning to get started.

Uhm...explain, please? I don't follow.

 

[Cerebru]

People here whining about Sonya's Cartwheel, you can blow it up with NJP combo or cross over to make it whiff.

If you block Sonya's Cartwheel, you can D1 her first - same applies to her Ex armored Cartwheel.

Also, her Dive Kick is punishable but online Sonya gets away with that.

Sonya NEEDS that armored Ex Cartwheel against Kabal/Kenshi. Stop crying here to nerf it, learn the game!

Who gives a s*** that it's an armored combo starter, why is no one complaining about Scorpions Ex Spear, Rain's Ex Roundhouse Kick, Kabal's Ex Nomad Dash.... because you can punish those? Learn to NJP punish Sonya's Cartwheel!

exactly you can punish them.... any thing that rewarding deserves a decent punish

 

[Gabriel032]

Remember, Sonya's cartwheel is punishable... Only not on block. There's no such thing as a move completely safe in this game.

 

[Cerebru]

Kabal has no need for a reset and a good rushdown game.

Cyrax has no need for 80% combos for 1 bar.

Jax has no need for a corner 140+% combo.

Kenshi has no need for a lot of armored attacks.

See my point?

can raiden have his original tele back.... or his original +1 at the end of his strings ? HE NEEDS IT!

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

IMO, no launcher should be safe on block. That's one of the many things I don't get about MK.

Maybe you don't understand how all the characters work. "Every launcher full punishable" would destroy some character's games, and would be pretty hard to apply. Are you gonna make Sektor's 1 2 B1 launching string punishable? He get's more off that than Sonya does with a cartwheel. If Nightwolf's Axe weren't safe, his pressure game would be dead. And are we really gonna make Jade's overhead staff punishable? Does she need to be raped that much harder?

 

[salvificblood]

Sonya's ring toss is retarded. Anybody trying to make the argument that it isn't good are living in denial. She can actually somewhat keep up in a zoning war with Noob Saibot if the Sonya players knows how to zone at the most rudimentary level.

Sonya is disgustingly dirty. If i am pressuring sonya with Sub-Zero and we're both low health, that armoured cartwheel that is completely safe on block is a joke. It makes me take the damn risk when it should be her having to take the risk. Ex cartwheel blows up the clone and followup 21 pressure, so the Sonya player knows I will have to block more often than not (there's only so many times you can cross somebody up), and just by her having a bar of meter she has a free pressure reversal because it's completely safe even if I read it and block it. That is frustrating in the extreme when taken with all her other tools. You can hardly pressure her in the first place because of the threat of her neutral jumping and divekicking you out of your strings and the elestic range of her d4 ms nonsense.

Get real people.

 

[Error]

If Sonya trades a ring toss with Noob's clone she get's knocked down allowing Noob to throw another clone. The best aspect of her projectile is it's recovery, it still has a really slow start-up so all she can use it for is disrupting zoners.

If a Sonya is using EX cartwheel but only blowing through a clone then she can be whiff punished. And just throwing out EX moves without knowing whether or not they will hit is a risk in itself.


Why isn't leg grab safe on block? A much more intriguing question

 

[salvificblood]

If Sonya trades a ring toss with Noob's clone she get's knocked down allowing Noob to throw another clone. The best aspect of her projectile is it's recovery, it still has a really slow start-up so all she can use it for is disrupting zoners.

If a Sonya is using EX cartwheel but only blowing through a clone then she can be whiff punished. And just throwing out EX moves without knowing whether or not they will hit is a risk in itself.

She's an absolute tank up close, the only character who compares up close is Johnny cage and look at what Johnny cage has for a projectile...

If you use the ex cartwheel like a retard, then obviously it isn't going to save you, but a Sonya as good as Foxy will not use it like that. You completely avoided the context of my post to make a generic comment about the move being whiff punishable. On that note, although it's irrelevant to the situation I was describing, I can't count the amount of times I've jumped over her cartwheel, dashed towards her and into a string only to get blown up by the divekick. Fighting Sonya is like playing the last hole in a game of crazy golf.

 

[Salad Petresky]

Sonya's Ex Cartwheel gets beat by cross overs/njp, Kabal's Ex Nomad Dash rarely gets beat.

Sonya's Ex Cartwheel blocked can be stuffed by D1 then cross over (if apply) to end her pressure, Kabal gets full combo punish because he can cancel his Nomad Dash - two different scenarios. If Kabal didn't have his Nomad Dash cancel ability then his Dash would probably be the same as Sonya's current blocked property.

Dude that can be says the same with ex cartwheel. It NEVER gets beat and SAFE on block, and bait people into making mistake just by having 1 bar. You are saying ex nomad is more scarier than kartwheel? GTFO... lol talking to people dont know about fighting game is pointless.

 

[RomeoBravoDelta]

Are you gonna make Sektor's 1 2 B1 launching string punishable?

Technically it is punishable since 12 wiffs on crouch. You can uppercut out or you can d4 into pressure if you character's grant's enough advantage.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Are you gonna make Sektor's 1 2 B1 launching string punishable?

It already is. 1 whiffs high. Hell, 12 whiffs high if you're not standing directly on top of them. Sektor's strings are really punishable. You don't see it in tournament play, and I'm honestly not sure why, but Sektor's strings are seriously filled with holes. It's pretty bad and it will be a problem eventually.

edit: that makes no f'ing sense. The 2 in 12 won't whiff if the opponent is simply crouching if you're standing on them, but it'll whiff completely if you're crouch blocking them?! WTF NRS. Anyways, point being, Sektor's awesome 6 frame launcher is really punishable.

 

[Error]

She's an absolute tank up close, the only character who compares up close is Johnny cage and look at what Johnny cage has for a projectile...

If you use the ex cartwheel like a retard, then obviously it isn't going to save you, but a Sonya as good as Foxy will not use it like that. You completely avoided the context of my post to make a generic comment about the move being whiff punishable. On that note, although it's irrelevant to the situation I was describing, I can't count the amount of times I've jumped over her cartwheel, dashed towards her and into a string only to get blown up by the divekick. Fighting Sonya is like playing the last hole in a game of crazy golf.

I read your other post wrong, when you said 21 pressure I thought you meant she was blowing through your clones and going right in to pressure you. I do find it funny that there's this sudden outrage towards Sonya's cartwheel, did something happen in tournaments recently that I missed?

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

It already is. 1 whiffs high. Hell, 12 whiffs high if you're not standing directly on top of them. Sektor's strings are really punishable. You don't see it in tournament play, and I'm honestly not sure why, but Sektor's strings are seriously filled with holes. It's pretty bad and it will be a problem eventually.

edit: that makes no f'ing sense. The 2 in 12 won't whiff if the opponent is simply crouching if you're standing on them, but it'll whiff completely if you're crouch blocking them?! WTF NRS. Anyways, point being, Sektor's awesome 6 frame launcher is really punishable.

I know but its not punishable on block, which is what we were talking about. Launchers being punishable on block.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I know but its not punishable on block, which is what we were talking about. Launchers being punishable on block.

A good majority of people instinctively block Sektor low due to his b34 string though, I think that string ultimately hurts him due to his really bizarre properties on his strings. Sektor getting armor would be pretty groovy in my book though! Heck, his EX ITU is -7 on block, it'd actually be punishable even if it were armored! You could punish it with a d1/d4 and link it into something nasty certainly. Quan could get a 3 frame d1~trance, for instance. That's totally fair imo.

edit: did I really justify a full screen armored move? I did...and it still makes more sense than Sonya's EX cartwheel. Wow.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

Maybe you don't understand how all the characters work. "Every launcher full punishable" would destroy some character's games, and would be pretty hard to apply. Are you gonna make Sektor's 1 2 B1 launching string punishable? He get's more off that than Sonya does with a cartwheel. If Nightwolf's Axe weren't safe, his pressure game would be dead. And are we really gonna make Jade's overhead staff punishable? Does she need to be raped that much harder?

Maybe it's you the one who's don't understanding what I'm saying. I didn't say "every launcher" full punishable, I said "launchers shouldn't be safe on block". And I not only meant that only launchers shouldn't be safe on block, but that the mechanics should be better thought out. Because there's almost no risk for Reptile players to use 3,2,1. It's their pressure tool, their most damaging launcher and it's all safe on block, so there's almost no need to use other strings. They don't even need to cancel it to acid hand because all 3, 32 and 321 are 0 on block. Where's the risk/reward factor?

Now as for Jade, that was a bad shot. Jade is clearly a badly designed character. For the next MK installment, NRS should just sit down and think "What do I want this character to be? A rushdown character? A zoning character?" (with every char. ofc) and please don't come with the "well obviously Jade is not bad, it's just that nobody plays her at her best but when someone with good footsies plays with her you all we'll see her true potential." Well, guess what, every goddamn character in every goddamn fighting game needs good footsies. Please.

But let's say Jade is a well designed character. She has pressure strings, fast punishers that lead to small combos, slow punishers that lead to higher damage combos and a string that's her most punishable string on block, but leads to her best combo. (either damage or situation dependent)
Well, fact of the matter is that Jade's staff overhead is over 30f (and a overhead, but let's say its just a Hid hitting special, no low or overhead). That's over half a second in which any human being can input a faster string or special and interrupt her momentum. And that's not even taking into consideration other factors like armor and such.
It is a launcher, so it obviously has a big reward on hit. It's slow as fuck, so it shouldn't be as punishable as Kung Lao's 6f spin, but it still should leave her at some sort of disadvantage. It's all about character planification and the risk/reward factor.
Of course Kung Lao's antiair launcher should be highly punishable on block. Because it's fast as fuck, it is a launcher and is and has a HUGE hitbox. I think that to this point people should understand what I mean when I say that launchers shouldn't be safe on block.

And I think that we all can agree that NRS did not fully take the risk/reward factor into consideration when they made the game. Wasn't it stupid that kung lao's spin gave pushback on block?

Clear?

 

[Error]

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I would like to see you try to outzone Kabal, Noob, Kenshi, Freddy, Kitana, Mileena or Sindel with Sonya's rings. Good luck.

Even Scorpion can beat Sonya if she spams rings. He gets two hellfires while she gets one ring.

You should only use rings against a heavy zoner if you have a huge life lead.

Sonya will outzone or keep up with Kitana

A lot of people says she is top 5, but in my opinion, that is exactly what stops her of being. If you play her, there is a good chance that you'll need a backup char. She has 3-7 matches, she is not unbeatable like a lot of people think she is.

Her only bad matchup is Kabal, and thats probably not a 3-7.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Maybe it's you the one who's don't understanding what I'm saying. I didn't say "every launcher" full punishable, I said "launchers shouldn't be safe on block". And I not only meant that only launchers shouldn't be safe on block, but that the mechanics should be better thought out. Because there's almost no risk for Reptile players to use 3,2,1. It's their pressure tool, their most damaging launcher and it's all safe on block, so there's almost no need to use other strings. They don't even need to cancel it to acid hand because all 3, 32 and 321 are 0 on block. Where's the risk/reward factor?
Now as for Jade, that was a bad shot. Jade is clearly a badly designed character. For the next MK installment, NRS should just sit down and think "What do I want this character to be? A rushdown character? A zoning character?" (with every char. ofc) and please don't come with the "well obviously Jade is not bad, it's just that nobody plays her at her best but when someone with good footsies plays with her you all we'll see her true potential." Well, guess what, every goddamn character in every goddamn fighting game needs good footsies. Please.

Something being safe and something at disadvantage are not the same thing. Plenty of strings and launchers are safe on block, but they dont give advantage. Which means a 6 or 7 frame D1 or D3, or a fast special (in my case Kenshi's spirit charge) will hit them before they can start their next move. Maybe you know this already, I don't know. I don't know you. But people can't just keep spamming blocked strings and blocked launchers with no consequence. If they are, then you're just not interrupting them with your own tools.