Why isn't cartwheel punishable on block?

[THTB]

Maybe it's you the one who's don't understanding what I'm saying. I didn't say "every launcher" full punishable, I said "launchers shouldn't be safe on block". And I not only meant that only launchers shouldn't be safe on block, but that the mechanics should be better thought out. Because there's almost no risk for Reptile players to use 3,2,1. It's their pressure tool, their most damaging launcher and it's all safe on block, so there's almost no need to use other strings. They don't even need to cancel it to acid hand because all 3, 32 and 321 are 0 on block. Where's the risk/reward factor?

Now as for Jade, that was a bad shot. Jade is clearly a badly designed character. For the next MK installment, NRS should just sit down and think "What do I want this character to be? A rushdown character? A zoning character?" (with every char. ofc) and please don't come with the "well obviously Jade is not bad, it's just that nobody plays her at her best but when someone with good footsies plays with her you all we'll see her true potential." Well, guess what, every goddamn character in every goddamn fighting game needs good footsies. Please.

But let's say Jade is a well designed character. She has pressure strings, fast punishers that lead to small combos, slow punishers that lead to higher damage combos and a string that's her most punishable string on block, but leads to her best combo. (either damage or situation dependent)
Well, fact of the matter is that Jade's staff overhead is over 30f (and a overhead, but let's say its just a Hid hitting special, no low or overhead). That's over half a second in which any human being can input a faster string or special and interrupt her momentum. And that's not even taking into consideration other factors like armor and such.
It is a launcher, so it obviously has a big reward on hit. It's slow as fuck, so it shouldn't be as punishable as Kung Lao's 6f spin, but it still should leave her at some sort of disadvantage. It's all about character planification and the risk/reward factor.
Of course Kung Lao's antiair launcher should be highly punishable on block. Because it's fast as fuck, it is a launcher and is and has a HUGE hitbox. I think that to this point people should understand what I mean when I say that launchers shouldn't be safe on block.

And I think that we all can agree that NRS did not fully take the risk/reward factor into consideration when they made the game. Wasn't it stupid that kung lao's spin gave pushback on block?

Clear?

Reptile has a safe, hitconfirmable string that leads to juggles because his offense runs on slow normals/specials. 321 may be 0 on block, but when your only way to get characters to actually respect that it's 0 on block is to use a combo-punishable special, it's a lot worse than it looks.

The launchers in this game have downsides to them. That's why some are safe. MK9 isn't the only culprit on high damage from safe moves.

 

[Death]

Sonya will outzone or keep up with Kitana




Her only bad matchup is Kabal, and thats probably not a 3-7.

How do you fight Kenshi/Freddy. They seem horrendous and way tougher than kabal.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

How do you fight Kenshi/Freddy. They seem horrendous and way tougher than kabal.

I think Sonya only beats Kenshi if the Kenshi player is too aggressive in their mid screen zoning. That dive kick will fuck up spirit charge pressure. And a bad habit of Kenshi players is that they want to play all their matches the same way. When there's several matchups where he has to be played very differently. If Kenshi is calm once Sonya is in her scary zone, he'll come out on top. Especially if he respects her ability to EX through his frame traps, and just let her burn her meter.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

How do you fight Kenshi/Freddy. They seem horrendous and way tougher than kabal.

Kenshi isnt as bad as everybody thinks, its just that folk love walking right into his kill zone, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You have to make him scared to use his specials.

From what I've seen so far Sonya doesnt have to respect Freddies NMS, makes it alot easier getting near him.

 

[Sao87]

Cartwheel ends her pressure. By all means lets balance the game around online and ruin her as a character.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

Something being safe and something at disadvantage are not the same thing. Plenty of strings and launchers are safe on block, but they dont give advantage. Which means a 6 or 7 frame D1 or D3, or a fast special (in my case Kenshi's spirit charge) will hit them before they can start their next move. Maybe you know this already, I don't know. I don't know you. But people can't just keep spamming blocked strings and blocked launchers with no consequence. If they are, then you're just not interrupting them with your own tools.

Well I guess you understand that I meant that launching strings shouldn't be the pressure strings, and that every command in the game should have the risk/reward factor in it. I thought the last two paragraphs made clear my point.
See it as "what do I get on hit?" "what do I get on block" ? It should be balanced with that factor in mind. Clearly, MK is a greatly balanced game in it's own sauce, but to me it has big issues even in it's own rules, and bigger issues in the logic of it's core mechanics. To an extent, people will agree with me (and 1.00 MK9 will remind you all of it). Hopefully NRS has more experience for the next MK.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

Kenshi isnt as bad as everybody thinks, its just that folk love walking right into his kill zone, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You have to make him scared to use his specials.

From what I've seen so far Sonya doesnt have to respect Freddies NMS, makes it alot easier getting near him.

I'm not sure I know what you mean, make him afraid to use his specials how? You are a better Sonya player than me, but I don't have that much trouble against Kabal comparably to Noob and Kenshi no matter how good they seem to be for my shitty online standards anyways. Where exactly is Kenshi's kill zone? Under mid screen and close enough for upslash and spirit charge to hit?

 

[RTM2004]

Dude that can be says the same with ex cartwheel. It NEVER gets beat and SAFE on block, and bait people into making mistake just by having 1 bar. You are saying ex nomad is more scarier than kartwheel? GTFO... lol talking to people dont know about fighting game is pointless.

It's NOT SAFE on block. Again, you need to watch Sonya's Meter.

Ex Nomad Dash is just as effective as her Ex Cartwheel, collision breaks through pressure.

 

[RTM2004]

I'm not sure I know what you mean, make him afraid to use his specials how? You are a better Sonya player than me, but I don't have that much trouble against Kabal comparably to Noob and Kenshi no matter how good they seem to be for my shitty online standards anyways. Where exactly is Kenshi's kill zone? Under mid screen and close enough for upslash and spirit charge to hit?

I saw a topic Mr. Mileena made about Kitana getting in on Kenshi somewhere around here.

Duck Kenshi's Teleflurry
Dash Block his Slashing which makes it easier to close space.
Stay outside his Spirit Charge range.
Make him respect her Energy Ring Toss on trade close, he needs fast reflexes to reflect it back (thanks to F0xy)
Ex Cartwheel to get in, do much damage possible, bait his wake up attacks, cross up.

It's still a super annoying matchup but once you are in on Kenshi, never let him escape.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

well that does make sense, I usually do most of that, I do ring tosses from mid screen, usually too fast for them to react, the teleflurry is still annoying though, alot of times people will use the enhanced one with extra hits or do random down slashes, it's an obnoxious match, not impossible, but definitely harder for her to win than it is for him IMO.

 

[RTM2004]

well that does make sense, I usually do most of that, I do ring tosses from mid screen, usually too fast for them to react, the teleflurry is still annoying though, alot of times people will use the enhanced one with extra hits or do random down slashes, it's an obnoxious match, not impossible, but definitely harder for her to win than it is for him IMO.

True. Once he is out of meter for armor/breakers, Sonya does heavy damage to beat him up badly. I think the biggest error people make is not being patient with Kenshi and knowing the spacing accurately when to attack. He is very annoying but when people learn the holes of the character Kenshi then he won't be as overrated as he is now, look what happened to Mileena etc.

 

[THTB]

Wait wait wait, I just read some of these posts from page 5.

Gabriel032 Sonya's projectile is 20f startup, like 47f total animation. Compare that to, say, Reptile's projectile...20f startup, 51f total animation. Kung Lao low hat...19f, 51f. 4 frames doesn't seem like it'd make a difference in a projectile war, but it's EXTREMELY noticeable in MK9. The startup isn't even that bad.

She can keep up with a lot of characters, and in some cases do better.

 

[Espio]

Wait wait wait, I just read some of these posts from page 5.

Gabriel032 Sonya's projectile is 20f startup, like 47f total animation. Compare that to, say, Reptile's projectile...20f startup, 51f total animation. Kung Lao low hat...19f, 51f. 4 frames doesn't seem like it'd make a difference in a projectile war, but it's EXTREMELY noticeable in MK9. The startup isn't even that bad.

She can keep up with a lot of characters, and in some cases do better.

Are you talking about Reptile's forceball start up or his acid spit?

 

[THTB]

Spit is what I was referring to. My bad.

 

[Shady]

*looks at Shady from across North America*

It's still a disadvantage for her, just not enough to punish. You are at better odds after it if you can react, it's just tricky to read when a move ends but it's a full combo punish if you have a fast enough starter.

 

[salvificblood]

Cartwheel ends her pressure. By all means lets balance the game around online and ruin her as a character.

I fail to see why it would ruin the character, I really do. Does Sub-Zero having a super punishable slide and ex slide ruin his game? I think Sonya would still have it really good even if she could be full combo punished for ex cartwheel on block. I don't see the logic behind, "it ends her pressure". So what, she can dial it in and the worst she eats is a poke but if she lands it, my goodness, she gets a combo into a reset and then you're dead. Same thing if she blows your pressure up with it. The risk/reward is completely skewed in her favour.

Perhaps give the move more pushback but make it fast, advancing special punishable with some characters being able to dash in and full combo. At the very least, it should be punishable by something. It's -3 right now. -3 is a joke for all thatshe gets from the move because it's a massive psychological obstacle when facing Sonya. How are you supposed to play anything like a normal pressure game when you know she has this garbage? You can't. Sonya is very spoiled as a character. I will take free pressure reversal every time I have meter for a potential -3 on block or a complete blow up of my opponent if they press a button at the wrong time.

There would be tears if sub-Zero's ex slide was only -3 on block, and his armoured move doesn't even combo and he gets destroyed for trying to armour out of pressure sometimes.

For those comparing Rain's roundhouse to the cartwheel, don't even... if I jump over Rain when he tries to ex roundhouse, I get a full combo, the same cannot be said for Sonya. She whiff punishes my attempted whiff punish with the divekick when I jump over her cartwheel.

 

[smokey]

As great as it may seem, just dont play like an idiot when sonya has meter, respect it and bait it, drain her meter dry and then you can stop worrying for at least 1 blockstring until she has the bar again.

Also, if you play just outside her D4 range, any cartwheels can be backdash or NJP punished if she wants to counterpoke you with it.

At the end of the day though if you are trying to rush down any character that has an armoured special and a meter, you are likely to get blown up. Sonya just does a really good job of blowing you up because it goes into full combo and 112ms setups.

Sonya using non ex cartwheels to bait a solid opening with EX cartwheels are genius and i hope you poke them out of it every time, draining the meter.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I have the impression that you've never played Sonya against a heavy zoner, but that's OK.

I think you mean ''I am assuming you've never played...''

Remember, Sonya's cartwheel is punishable... Only not on block. There's no such thing as a move completely safe in this game.

You don't appear to understand the difference between punishable and safe. They are two different things, people are asking why is the move safe on block and not punishable. A move being safe on block and a move being fully punishable on block, change the property of the move entirely.

I can name you tons of moves that are ''completely safe on block''. Il name one, Sheeva's Grab, +10 on block, couldn't get more safe than that mate.

 

[Gabriel032]

I think you mean ''I am assuming you've never played...''

You don't appear to understand the difference between punishable and safe. They are two different things, people are asking why is the move safe on block and not punishable. A move being safe on block and a move being fully punishable on block, change the property of the move entirely.

I can name you tons of moves that are ''completely safe on block''. Il name one, Sheeva's Grab, +10 on block, couldn't get more safe than that mate.

I said completely safe, not completely safe on block. Basically every 0 on block move is completely safe on block, since the enemy cannot counter you.

About the first quote, I'm sorry if I make a few mistakes in my posts, but english is not my native language.

Wait wait wait, I just read some of these posts from page 5.

Gabriel032 Sonya's projectile is 20f startup, like 47f total animation. Compare that to, say, Reptile's projectile...20f startup, 51f total animation. Kung Lao low hat...19f, 51f. 4 frames doesn't seem like it'd make a difference in a projectile war, but it's EXTREMELY noticeable in MK9. The startup isn't even that bad.

She can keep up with a lot of characters, and in some cases do better.

Yes, I know. I said before that Sonya can outzone a lot of the cast. That's why Sonya destroys Kung Lao, she beats him at every range. But she doesn't outzone a fully zoning-oriented char.

I don't know about Reptile though. Can she outzone him? I'm asking because I don't have offline experience with the match, normally online Reptiles don't zone a lot.

As I said, I agree, her projectile is really good, she outzones basically every other rushdown char in the game. But she still struggles against zoners.

 

[Gabriel032]

I see the point of the thread, Sonya is a great character and cartwheel being safe on block makes her even better. But it's very hard to play her without having a backup char IMO. You have to be a fucking god.

Sonya will outzone or keep up with Kitana


Her only bad matchup is Kabal, and thats probably not a 3-7.

How exactly do I outzone Kitana with Sonya? Seriously, I feel her rings just aren't good enough to trade with Kit's iAFs. Any tips?

And even though I only play online, I have a terrible time against Kenshi, even when I throw rings just outside of Spirit Charge range baiting an answer. And I have been told that offline Kenshi is even better, and that online Sonya is a lot harder to fight. I can't see how it isn't a bad match for her.

I don't know about Freddy. People just don't play Freddy. I just assumed it was a 4-6 because he's such a good zoner.

Anyway, I feel Sonya is just like Mileena was a couple of weeks/months ago. Until people learn how to fight her, there's gonna be a lot of whining.

 

[Slego]

A blocked kartwheel honestly isn't that awesome, it puts you at no advantage and spaces you too far away, the ones that try and kartwheel all day are the ones that give you options to escape pressure, which allows you to play your game.

Not sure if this has been covered,(too lazy to read all the posts), but you can directly punish kartwheel with a njp if you read it, which isn't terribly hard. Also works on EXKart.

EDIT: I guess I would say the weaknesses in kartwheel aren't necessarily in the move, but rather how it relates to the rest of sonyas game, and her moveset.

 

[Peckapowa]

ex cartwheel is a little ridiculous.