Why is Zod top 5 ?

[godlessmode]

Based on that dudes logic this just in:

KABAL BOTTOM TIER DUE TO HARD TO USE

You are misunderstanding my point, and by the look of it are doing so on purpose.

People approach tier-lists in different ways, which is why tier-list discussions always go so "wonderfully". Many people argue that without tournament results all speculative positioning in a tier-list is "theory fighting".

However, understanding that a character has more potential but that potential has a steep, or challenging learning curve, or an execution barrier can help convey to both parties why a character should be top 5, but has yet to show strong tournament results.

Further, I find it very rude and dismissive of you to take that stance when you obviously didn't bother to understand my post whatsoever. Especially since I explicitly stated that...

"Zod is top 5 in theory"

If you would like to argue that he is top 5 in practice, you need to show evidence of that stance. Right now you have a theory that he is top 5 based on the attributes you listed (which is a strong theory) but in practice? How many majors has Zod won? How many significant locals?

MMH has placed better in less time. He is not only in theory strong. But has shown to be strong in practice as well. Right now, Zod is theory strong.

But maybe instead of providing constructive discussion I should take a dismissive, and rude approach like you have?

 

[SimSim]

One thing is for sure though, he's top 1 most fun character to use

I remember telling you in stream chat "Jailhouse, you should buy Zod, he has similar fireball game to Cyborg", and you were like "He does look kind of fun, I might give him a chance".. You owe it all to me!! Going to next level?

 

[dribirut]

BTW in a week or less that fairy you call a main is going to b free to my martian. Geeeeet ready

meant to quote cowboy lol

 

[dribirut]

Ok but when u played me w superman u couldn't touch me at all

Maybe it's u and not the character WoundCowboy

I'm extremely suspect of a superman player who can't take games off of me

I haven't manned super in a while. the first time we played is when I mained him

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I haven't manned super in a while. the first time we played is when I mained him

It was halfway a joke

I like u

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

You are misunderstanding my point, and by the look of it are doing so on purpose.

People approach tier-lists in different ways, which is why tier-list discussions always go so "wonderfully". Many people argue that without tournament results all speculative positioning in a tier-list is "theory fighting".

However, understanding that a character has more potential but that potential has a steep, or challenging learning curve, or an execution barrier can help convey to both parties why a character should be top 5, but has yet to show strong tournament results.

Further, I find it very rude and dismissive of you to take that stance when you obviously didn't bother to understand my post whatsoever. Especially since I explicitly stated that...

"Zod is top 5 in theory"

If you would like to argue that he is top 5 in practice, you need to show evidence of that stance. Right now you have a theory that he is top 5 based on the attributes you listed (which is a strong theory) but in practice? How many majors has Zod won? How many significant locals?

MMH has placed better in less time. He is not only in theory strong. But has shown to be strong in practice as well. Right now, Zod is theory strong.

But maybe instead of providing constructive discussion I should take a dismissive, and rude approach like you have?

Sorry to be rude

Forever mid tier ZOD is

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

The one thing I will say in here is that I do think MMH is better than Zod overall, and that I do think that Zod is better than WW overall.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Wait, that was two things.

 

[godlessmode]

Sorry to be rude

Forever mid tier ZOD is

Bottom 5, thats why I dropped superman for him.

 

[TheCanadian]

Right now it's disputable, but when he gets the Man of Steel costume he's in top 5 100%. Yes, the costume matters! It's like playing ball with new Jordans, IT MATTERS!!!!

 

[Colonel-Gilgamesh]

MMH has the chops to knock many of the top contenders off their perch, no doubt of that.

I dunno, I still think Zod is top five. Among other things, Trait just shuts down everything ever if you get it out safe. If Marvel top me anything, it's that any strategy where the opponent is stuck has to guess to survive or take massive damage for 4 seconds is incredibly valuable

 

[haketh]

For people saying we haven't seen anything in actual tournament play for Zod, have you not seen the AK or WNF tournaments

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

For people saying we haven't seen anything in actual tournament play for Zod, have you not seen the AK or WNF tournaments

No this is TYM where tournaments only count if they are in the Northeast US

 

[Colonel-Gilgamesh]

No this is TYM where tournaments only count if they are in the Northeast US

If we're talking about how TYM responds to 'counting tournaments'

http://testyourmight.com/threads/for-those-keeping-score-at-home.36262/

This is pretty much proof that that's a bad idea

 

[SaJa]

Ok so for now Zod top 10, and when the man of steel skin will come, Zod will be top 5.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

I remember telling you in stream chat "Jailhouse, you should buy Zod, he has similar fireball game to Cyborg", and you were like "He does look kind of fun, I might give him a chance".. You owe it all to me!! Going to next level?

Lol next level is scratched until further notice. Maybe next week, maybe never..maybe when I quit this tiring and stressful job and don't have to drive 45 minutes to get there every time

So who wants to play online?? Lolll

 

[SimSim]

Lol next level is scratched until further notice. Maybe next week, maybe never..maybe when I quit this tiring and stressful job and don't have to drive 45 minutes to get there every time

So who wants to play online?? Lolll

-Turns off Spooky stream-

 

[latte lollipop]

lemme tell you why zod is top 5... when I fight him, he back up all the way to his corner & shoot whatever until i get in my own corner. Then he shoot a bunch of whatever again so i cant go over there and punch him in the face! & then lemme tell you he's all in his corner & i'm in my corner & then his little buddy trait pops up behind me wanting in on the fun, so I get pounded from behind & get nailed from up front. Cute right? & that my dear, is why you may think he's top 5!

 

[RenegadeVA]

Psh. If that guy's logic is true, C.Viper officially named bottom most tier character in UMvC3

@AKPigoftheHut

Except their are numerous C.Viper players putting in work @ majors and getting top 8's and winning.

Zero didn't win majors for a while either, mostly thanks to Chris G.

Anyway, I'm sorry that Pig hasn't been able to travel to any majors, but until he does, Zod will fovever be top 5 of Pig's living room.

Prove me wrong, sure, by all means. But you can't get all ruffled if people want results to back up your claims. MMH has done more in 1 month than Zod has in 2.

And to "ease of use" and tier lists...

Yes. You do not rank characters b/c they're easy or derpy. That's why Gief is not ranked high in SF4 and Wesker isn't top in UMVC3 (although people thought he was)

However, you can't assume 100% perfect play, because no one is perfect, and people mess up all the time. If people assumed perfect play, Strider would be #1 in MVC2 (or Dark Sakura). You would assume in KOF that people can do Iori and Beni infinites for free... And that Chun Li and El Fuerte can infinite of any clean hit... Or that P-Zangief can just parry everything and SPD in CvS2.

Thing is... they can't.

So you have to assume players are going to play in tournaments between (ideally) 85-95% efficiency. This takes the form of combo drops, unoptimized/easier combos, less than perfect spacing/setups, w/e. If a character can still be effective when played at that level (or doesn't even need it), that's good. If they lose for free if they drop 1 thing (i.e. SF4 Seth with low health), then that's really bad.

If the "reason why X character is good" occurs in that 85-100% efficiency zone (i.e. 1f links, extremely hard infinites, easy mistake inputs etc) , you have serious problems w/ the character in how practical it is to win with them. And you have to rank them accordingly.
Strider in MvC2 was GDLK... until that Wall Climb happened instead of teleport and he died.

That's the difference between theory fighter and real, honest results.

Game is still new and people need time to flesh out and perfect characters, certainly.

Another wrench is that you also have to calculate what players are severely outperforming their characters *cough*ChrisG*cough* and go from there. If only one player is doing well with a character, you have to wonder if they are an outlier as opposed to the norm.


Anywho, next major you go to: MM or play Rico, REO, Riyo, ForeverKing, Khaotik, KDZ. Go over .500 , then you may have a point.

 

[Breakin Wordzz]

Top 5 damage
Top 2-3 mix ups
Top 2-3 trait
2 bad MUs IMO so far ......and they might not be bad
Zoning
Rush down
Set ups
Top 8 mobility
Top 5 air control
Top 5 AA damage
48% full screen 1 MB combo
55% 1 MB close screen combo
7-8 sec trait regeneration
W trait owns your face for free w interactables and there isn't a f ing thing u can do
3 frame parry stops most FTs
D3 goes under black Adam d1 lightning and superman f23 and pig on pig stage , etc
Trait grab is a 10 frame 44%-53% on block punisher from anywhere on screen
15% guaranteed chip w trait
Fast meter builder
Traps out the ass
Most people who try to use him will go donkey raped cause he takes a lot of time effort and skill unlike some characters in this game, he's top 3 hardest to play IMO at max capacity and skill level in all MUs and most will never understand why he's great cause they constantly get blown up
And because I f ing said so ....

SaJa

And he is like the only character who can cancel a dash into a move.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

@AKPigoftheHut

Except their are numerous C.Viper players putting in work @ majors and getting top 8's and winning.

Zero didn't win majors for a while either, mostly thanks to Chris G.

Anyway, I'm sorry that Pig hasn't been able to travel to any majors, but until he does, Zod will fovever be top 5 of Pig's living room.

Prove me wrong, sure, by all means. But you can't get all ruffled if people want results to back up your claims. MMH has done more in 1 month than Zod has in 2.

And to "ease of use" and tier lists...

Yes. You do not rank characters b/c they're easy or derpy. That's why Gief is not ranked high in SF4 and Wesker isn't top in UMVC3 (although people thought he was)

However, you can't assume 100% perfect play, because no one is perfect, and people mess up all the time. If people assumed perfect play, Strider would be #1 in MVC2 (or Dark Sakura). You would assume in KOF that people can do Iori and Beni infinites for free... And that Chun Li and El Fuerte can infinite of any clean hit... Or that P-Zangief can just parry everything and SPD in CvS2.

Thing is... they can't.

So you have to assume players are going to play in tournaments between (ideally) 85-95% efficiency. This takes the form of combo drops, unoptimized/easier combos, less than perfect spacing/setups, w/e. If a character can still be effective when played at that level (or doesn't even need it), that's good. If they lose for free if they drop 1 thing (i.e. SF4 Seth with low health), then that's really bad.

If the "reason why X character is good" occurs in that 85-100% efficiency zone (i.e. 1f links, extremely hard infinites, easy mistake inputs etc) , you have serious problems w/ the character in how practical it is to win with them. And you have to rank them accordingly.
Strider in MvC2 was GDLK... until that Wall Climb happened instead of teleport and he died.

That's the difference between theory fighter and real, honest results.

Game is still new and people need time to flesh out and perfect characters, certainly.

Another wrench is that you also have to calculate what players are severely outperforming their characters *cough*ChrisG*cough* and go from there. If only one player is doing well with a character, you have to wonder if they are an outlier as opposed to the norm.


Anywho, next major you go to: MM or play Rico, REO, Riyo, ForeverKing, Khaotik, KDZ. Go over .500 , then you may have a point.

You know the only major since Zod's release has been Summer Jam and that is a notoriously small one.

Is that the ONLY thing that you are taking into account for this post? Where you said MMH has done more than Zod?

 

[RenegadeVA]

You know the only major since Zod's release has been Summer Jam and that is a notoriously small one.

Is that the ONLY thing that you are taking into account for this post? Where you said MMH has done more than Zod?

A "notoriously small" one that managed to have all of the Northeast talent for Injustice. But MMH has made a bigger splash on streams/locals and whatever as well.

It's still early, yes. I said that myself. I just prefer a "wait and see" approach instead of "OMG X CHAR IS TOP 5" until we've actually seen them used in elite matches that mean something.

 

[godlessmode]

You know the only major since Zod's release has been Summer Jam and that is a notoriously small one.

Is that the ONLY thing that you are taking into account for this post? Where you said MMH has done more than Zod?

I was factoring in the larger locals when I said something to the same effect. And it isn't intended to dismiss the accomplishments of yourself or others. I doubt anyone is intending to discredit your, or anyone else's results - I wasn't.

However, If you compare the performance of Zod and MMH for their first 30 days there is a drastic difference.

Beyond that, it seems fairly clear that MMH has the more important toolset in the current meta.

Also, what happens when they fix the HKD moves and his ability to use KT grab "mid string" (which is a bug)?

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

A "notoriously small" one that managed to have all of the Northeast talent for Injustice. But MMH has made a bigger splash on streams/locals and whatever as well.

It's still early, yes. I said that myself. I just prefer a "wait and see" approach instead of "OMG X CHAR IS TOP 5" until we've actually seen them used in elite matches that mean something.

Yeah it only had people from one region, that's kind of the point.

And REO is the only MMH to place top 3 in locals consistently so far. We have 2 Zods in the US and 1 in the Philippines that have placed top 3 consistently.

Do you know something I don't?

 

[RenegadeVA]

Yeah it only had people from one region, that's kind of the point.

And REO is the only MMH to place top 3 in locals consistently so far. We have 2 Zods in the US and 1 in the Philippines that have placed top 3 consistently.

Do you know something I don't?

Apparently that the Northeast (and EC in general) is probably the best region for Injustice overall?

REO placed with MMH and eliminated the EVO champ along the way, and the 2 Zod's are in their living rooms. MMH def has a better resume than Zod in half the time.

I don't discount that he's a good character. Just I wanna see him do well at a big tournament first.

Why is this so impossible for people to understand? It's a combination of theory and application that shows a character is good.