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Who needs to use top tier to place?

TakeAChance

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
THTB said:
Can't do much from full screen? Hard knockdown low projectiles. He just needs to nade you once, then boom.
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Derptile said:
Erron Black has no trouble getting in on anyone. Godtier runspeed, Slide, Command Grab, advancing normals, and he can still throw nades down and use them as poverty reptile slimeballs.
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Boys, Simmer, we are on the same side. I was using his example! I'm no Erron Expert, But I don't see how Quan would be a huge issue for him.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Warrior
SS_RedShadow said:
Actually I can. Predator doesn't have an overhead starter therefore by your logic he is a mid-low tier. Kung Lao SUPER low tier because he doesn't have a low starter and he has a very punishable teleport.

Tanya SUPER DUPER low tier because she doesn't have any overhead starters unless you are counting the 50 frames overhead that nobody uses. Tremor is of course also low tier because he doesn't have an overhead starter. ANY character that doesn't have both overhead and low starters is an instant low tier by this logic.

But what you don't seem to get is that this game is not just 50/50s, it's much MUCH more. Tanya makes up for the lack of any real 50/50 with the ability to pressure in on variation and the ability to zone(which she can't do as good anymore).

This game like any other fighting game is about mind games as well as mixups NOT 50/50s. Which people seem to get confused by. 50/50s are not mixups, they are part of mixups.

Take @Pig Of The Hut for example. He showed people that 50/50s are not really mixups. By using Kenshi and being able to open opponents up even though he doesn't have an overhead starter.

There is something called THROW which every character has got and therefore every character has a mixup. Will he run and grab me? Or will he run and as I let go of block expecting a throw he goes for a special move that goes into a 30% or more combo? That's a mixup.

Do characters benefit from having both low and overhead? Sure 100% they do but that does not make them top tier. Takeda has a low and overhead starters, is he top tier? You see what I'm trying to say. 50/50s doesn't make a character top tier just like Kitana is top tier not because of 50/50s but because of what she brings to the table in terms of really safe strings/high METERLESS damage/super duper good armoured moves/mobility/zoning/frame traps.
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Why are you telling me this? I never said any of these things like that idiotic assumption that Tanya's low tier because she lacks a true 50/50. So what? You can have 50/50s and STILL be low tier. Example: Hawkgirl in Injustice or even Ivy in Soul Calibur. You can have AMAZING pressure tools or like you put it mind games and guess what? You can still be mid or low tier. Doesn't matter what game it is, unless you have ALL of these tools at your disposal with a great move set, you are going to be placed accordingly to what you have or don't have. Which is why variations at this current meta game, is crucial. Tanya in all of her variations have GREAT pressure options but with the nerf, she is not as good as she used to be. Tremor is a new character that people haven't utilized to the fullest however, if you have a great player like M2Dave state that his character design is flawed and already going to render him low tier, it doesn't matter what he has he will always be bad in the current meta game.

SonicFox could probably take Kenshi and do the exact same thing that Pig is doing but if Kenshi the CHARACTER, doesn't already have good tools to make him work to his fullest potential, it doesn't matter what he does. He's still going to lose matchups because of how poorly his character was designed.
 
SS_RedShadow

SS_RedShadow

I lost because of Player 1 advantage.
Skylight1 said:
Why are you telling me this? I never said any of these things like that idiotic assumption that Tanya's low tier because she lacks a true 50/50. So what? You can have 50/50s and STILL be low tier. Example: Hawkgirl in Injustice or even Ivy in Soul Calibur. You can have AMAZING pressure tools or like you put it mind games and guess what? You can still be mid or low tier. Doesn't matter what game it is, unless you have ALL of these tools at your disposal with a great move set, you are going to be placed accordingly to what you have or don't have. Which is why variations at this current meta game, is crucial. Tanya in all of her variations have GREAT pressure options but with the nerf, she is not as good as she used to be. Tremor is a new character that people haven't utilized to the fullest however, if you have a great player like M2Dave state that his character design is flawed and already going to render him low tier, it doesn't matter what he has he will always be bad in the current meta game.

SonicFox could probably take Kenshi and do the exact same thing that Pig is doing but if Kenshi the CHARACTER, doesn't already have good tools to make him work to his fullest potential, it doesn't matter what he does. He's still going to lose matchups because of how poorly his character was designed.
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Exactly. If Kitana was on Kenshi's level SonicFox would have lost.

And as for why I told you all that, it's because the only reason you gave me for why Kitana is Mid/low tier is because she doesn't have overhead starter in a game that is based around 50/50s which the game ISN'T.

What Kitana lacks in 50/50s she more than makes up for in other places. What makes a character top tier and low tier is not about their move-set per se but by their bad match ups and how many bad match ups they have.

For example. Kenshi can't deal with Pressure as good as Kitana can therefore in this game that favors rushdown a character that can't counter rushdown is going to be low tier. Kitana can very well deal with rushdown characters which means more than half the cast which means Top tier.

Please tell me why YOU think she is Mid/low tier besides the 50/50s because you already said yourself that 50/50s don't make a character top tier or low tier.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Warrior
SS_RedShadow said:
Exactly. If Kitana was on Kenshi's level SonicFox would have lost.

And as for why I told you all that, it's because the only reason you gave me for why Kitana is Mid/low tier is because she doesn't have overhead starter in a game that is based around 50/50s which the game ISN'T.

What Kitana lacks in 50/50s she more than makes up for in other places. What makes a character top tier and low tier is not about their move-set per se but by their bad match ups and how many bad match ups they have.

For example. Kenshi can't deal with Pressure as good as Kitana can therefore in this game that favors rushdown a character that can't counter rushdown is going to be low tier. Kitana can very well deal with rushdown characters which means more than half the cast which means Top tier.

Please tell me why YOU think she is Mid/low tier besides the 50/50s because you already said yourself that 50/50s don't make a character top tier or low tier.
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Did you not read that entire comment I posted? I said if a character is not given certain tools (pressure, anti-rushdown options, space control, whether you want to agree or not 50/50s, ect.) it DOESN'T MATTER how good a character is, they will be judged accordingly to what they have or don't have. What makes a character top tier is that they have EVERYTHING and good match-ups to boot. Sheeva had great damage but she lacked rushdown, a great projectile to counter zoning, she had nothing to stop intense pressure from characters like Kabal or Smoke and her match-ups were HORRIBLE. Kitana has moderate to good damage in royal storm, who has to take the life lead or else her options are limited once she's on that ground. Her wakeup is decent, nothing to be so shocked about but it isn't the worst in the game.
 
Robotic

Robotic

Gentleman.
You're sitting at a professional Hold em table with other pros. You have the choice of PICKING your 2 starting cards. The rest is somewhat of a crap shoot in the other cards falling as they may and the skill set of the other pros. Why would u NOT select the best pocket cards possible when money is on the line?

This is how I envision pros tackling this game and other fgs. I dont, though, because I have no intention of making a run. I just want to pick a character I like to play and play the shit out of it. To answer the OP, I would say Perfect Legend, but I would also add, so what? The opposite end of that spectrum is pure dick riding so I refuse to join in, lol
 
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SS_RedShadow

SS_RedShadow

I lost because of Player 1 advantage.
Skylight1 said:
Did you not read that entire comment I posted? I said if a character is not given certain tools (pressure, anti-rushdown options, space control, whether you want to agree or not 50/50s, ect.) it DOESN'T MATTER how good a character is, they will be judged accordingly to what they have or don't have. What makes a character top tier is that they have EVERYTHING and good match-ups to boot. Sheeva had great damage but she lacked rushdown, a great projectile to counter zoning, she had nothing to stop intense pressure from characters like Kabal or Smoke and her match-ups were HORRIBLE. Kitana has moderate to good damage in royal storm, who has to take the life lead or else her options are limited once she's on that ground. Her wakeup is decent, nothing to be so shocked about but it isn't the worst in the game.
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I've already said that 50/50s are a good thing to have but they are not what makes a character good. I agree that a character needs something but you seem to want her to have EVERYTHING to be considered top tier.

Tempest Kung Lao is top tier and he doesn't have a real answer to zoning especially Kitana's zoning or even mid level zoning like Kenshi's zoning. So he struggles in one area but makes up for it in another area just like Kitana struggles in 50/50s she does have good zoning she has mobility to get away and she does have pressure, not the best in the game but still it's more than Kenshi's got.

She also IS the character to pick to counter rushdown, space control is what she does what she keeps throwing fans and having you respect her advancing d,b,1 that leads into 30% damage.

Kitana has pretty damn good damage not moderate. 50% or more is not just moderate or good. 35% or more METERLESS is not moderate.

Again what makes her mid tier? I still don't get it, she has an answer to almost everything and very little bad match ups. Tell me what are her bad match ups in your opinion and why she struggles in these match ups?
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Warrior
SS_RedShadow said:
I've already said that 50/50s are a good thing to have but they are not what makes a character good. I agree that a character needs something but you seem to want her to have EVERYTHING to be considered top tier.

Tempest Kung Lao is top tier and he doesn't have a real answer to zoning especially Kitana's zoning or even mid level zoning like Kenshi's zoning. So he struggles in one area but makes up for it in another area just like Kitana struggles in 50/50s she does have good zoning she has mobility to get away and she does have pressure, not the best in the game but still it's more than Kenshi's got.

She also IS the character to pick to counter rushdown, space control is what she does what she keeps throwing fans and having you respect her advancing d,b,1 that leads into 30% damage.

Kitana has pretty damn good damage not moderate. 50% or more is not just moderate or good. 35% or more METERLESS is not moderate.

Again what makes her mid tier? I still don't get it, she has an answer to almost everything and very little bad match ups. Tell me what are her bad match ups in your opinion and why she struggles in these match ups?
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We're obviously not going to find a common ground here so let's agree to disagree.
 
IIINCORRUPTIBLE

IIINCORRUPTIBLE

Mortal
Clark L. said:
So .... I aint going to lie. im a little drunk, and thought it was funny to ask. who in the tournament community needs to use top tier characters to place, and naturally who doesn't? like I think Ya bOii @YOMI MITYEAP doesn't need need top tier to place, But WHO DOES?
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I don't know about specific names, but the tier lists are just an opinion anyway -- despite the fact that the better ones are based on a scientific formula.
 
Zatoichi

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
On the topic of what makes a good character...

Safe, Simple Pressure
Being able to convert high damage off of just about anything
Good pokes
Fast, combo-starting specials with some priority
Resets
Run Cancel specials

Just my opinion.
 
IROC

IROC

WP IROC
KingForever takes the cake. I could say a couple more, but they have redeamed themselves as of lately
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Warrior
xKhaoTik said:
Lolwut have you not seen mournful?
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Have you seen a mournful place top 10 in a major? No, so whatever you're going with that statement is futile. I've seen plenty and I even play mournful and I believe it isn't up to par with royal. Not even close.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Warrior
ESG Jagged said:
and to top it off he switched to EB to win that, cuz he lost the round with Kitana
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Just to further prove that Kitana is not at all top tier and just was used as a secondary. Erron Black has more options to control a match more so than Kitana's one fan trick-pony.
 
MadeOfMetal

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Skylight1 said:
Just to further prove that Kitana is not at all top tier and just was used as a secondary. Erron Black has more options to control a match more so than Kitana's one fan trick-pony.
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no she has a game, he just went back to his roots, id say she is up there
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Skylight1 said:
Have you seen a mournful place top 10 in a major? No, so whatever you're going with that statement is futile. I've seen plenty and I even play mournful and I believe it isn't up to par with royal. Not even close.
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what that's like saying Jax is bad lmao. Tyrant is a beast with him but we havent seen him place lately, so your point is lame.

anyone with a brain could tell you mournful has better zoning than RS and every kitana player kinda agree with that. a projetcile that hits mid/OH and creates mixups > a duckable one.


that was a nice attempt you tried tho lol
 
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