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Question - Johnny Cage What does TYM think of Johnny as of 8-13-2015?

Killer Xinok

Killer Xinok

"Online is your forte!" - A Wise Man, 2015
Error404 said:
Mine also gives you full stamina back. How much damage does your version do?
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I'm not sure, and can't do the combo now to be sure :( but if you notice, if can't do 4skrc after your combo, and this one I've said, the stamina recovers right after the np comes out.. but it was just a opinion, you can keep on doing your combo
 
Error404

Error404

Noob
Killer Xinok said:
I'm not sure, and can't do the combo now to be sure :( but if you notice, if can't do 4skrc after your combo, and this one I've said, the stamina recovers right after the np comes out.. but it was just a opinion, you can keep on doing your combo
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Not a problem .I'll test it in about an hour when I'm finally home and tell you.
 
Wam-Zlay

Wam-Zlay

Reptile / Noob
  • Where do you think he lies in the tier placement?
Mid Tier
  • What variation is better?
I prefer Stunt double, but i guess A List is more popular /better
  • What are his weak points?
zoning
  • What are his strengths?
great pressure (A-List), high dmg (stunt double), 500$ glasses
  • Does he need Help in the patch department?
i don´t think he needs a buff, just his strings (hitboxes) should get fixed
  • What is the Max damage he can do in both MID/CORNER?
Stunt double around 80% in rage mode with 3 meter
BnB´s are around 20-50%
  • Does any of his 3 variations have Bad MU's against most of the cast?
i don´t think so

What does TYM feel about the variations?

i love stunt double because of his ghosts, i also would like to touch a-list, but i don´t have that much time atm

is any of the 3 viable against most of the cast?

I think all variations are viable. Maybe A-List > the others a little bit
 
Asodimazze

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
I do 113SKRC, 12SKDC, f4, f24, d1, f3xxnut. It does 28% if I remember correctly and requires less stamina since you run only once.

If you want to go full pro you can also do: 113SKRC, 12SKDC, f4, f24, 12, f3xxnut for 1% more but it is way to hard to do consistently.
 
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Kompetitor

Kompetitor

Johnny Cage Specialist
I think Johnny Cage is solid top 10, maybe top 8, if we are talking A-List. He has really good pressure and can keep his opponents on lockdown if used correctly, I believe my cage is really strong, but i still am not using all of his cancels effectively, like 4 skrc for an example. The only play I think cage is bad in is anti airs, like his uppercut isnt even reliable, so i just njp when they jump, hoping to catch them (just not kitana). He also whiffs moves every once in a while, but that doesnt happen often enough to be a huge problem.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
rafaw said:
  • Where do you think he lies in the tier placement?
Somewhere between 10~15 in A-list
  • What variation is better?
I played a lot of SD and A-list, FC is just his worst for sure, A list is harder but imo its his best variation by a good margin.
  • What are his weak points?
As everybody said, his whiffing problems are terrible, 1 dont hit crouch block, 21 dont hit, 114 1 and 4 whiffs a lot... small hitbox caracters are a problem.
Anti air with armor is reliable actually, exdb4 cover a lot of air space(even behind JC) but lacks damage, and exNP lead to 25% combo but is more position/time specific to anti air.
His jump and air punch normals are bad, ji3 is not bad and has a lot of horizontal hitbox.
  • What are his strengths?
Im sure that the answer is pressure here, he got tons of guaranted cancels that makeup for the lack of 50/50, you can skrc of 114/f3/4/12/333/b34/d4/f2 2 times if you have full stamina, and when you mix 12/11 with f2/throw after lets say 4skrc, it creats a situation thats a true nightmare to defend.
Against zoners he can do pretty well, exsk cover almost fullscreen and has armor to close the distance, and his fb is really good, at 3/4~1/2 of the screen its even plus on block.
One of the best pokes in the game with d4, its incredible on block(-1) and on hit(+22) has good reach and low profile.
A lot of footsies tools, F3 is a fast mid(11) that advance around jump distance and in A-list can be canceled to be very plus on block to guaranted pressure, d4 is amazing too, ex sk is safe on block and cover full screen, f2 advances a lot for a fast overhead(15).
  • Does he need Help in the patch department?
Yes, not for buffs but for fixes on his whiffing problems, not much.
  • What is the Max damage he can do in both MID/CORNER?
Reliable you can get for bnb mid: F24~D1~F3xxnp 23% or F24~D1~F3xxExnp~12~F3xxnp for 33% both of those can be raw f2 or of a F3rc, starting with 113(thats 9 frames) you get a bit less damage.
Corner bnb: F3rc 121(fullcharge) d1 12121212xxNp for 34%(not sure) or F3rc121(fullcharge) d1 12~4Exnp~4np for 39% both combos dont need F3 starter.
Max damage he can do mid is around 29~30% into reset and corner around 40~42% into reset
  • Does any of his 3 variations have Bad MU's against most of the cast?
All 3 have a lot of bad MU´s, mostly 4-6... but MU wise im not sure yet.


Good to see someone starting a good discussion for Johnny :D
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Your last point I agree with, mostly through theory though. I think JC would benefit greatly from the top tier being toned down. He has some bad MU from mid tier or upper mid tier chars as well (such as Sub Zero) but that's any character that is balanced, no one should have no bad MU lol.

The hitbox issues when fighting female characters are rough, that's my only complaint really for A-List. It's a rewarding variation to play but it's hitbox issues make it hard to justify going all in and devoting major time to.

As an aside, for fisticuffs, I think the b121 string needs to stay how it is. When it was over buffed it became brain dead, IMO. I think a good way to make the variation legit would be to change his bf1 special to give it some more properties, maybe like how liu kang flame fist was changed.
 
rafaw

rafaw

#YouSuck
GGA Dizzy said:
Your last point I agree with, mostly through theory though. I think JC would benefit greatly from the top tier being toned down. He has some bad MU from mid tier or upper mid tier chars as well (such as Sub Zero) but that's any character that is balanced, no one should have no bad MU lol.

The hitbox issues when fighting female characters are rough, that's my only complaint really for A-List. It's a rewarding variation to play but it's hitbox issues make it hard to justify going all in and devoting major time to.

As an aside, for fisticuffs, I think the b121 string needs to stay how it is. When it was over buffed it became brain dead, IMO. I think a good way to make the variation legit would be to change his bf1 special to give it some more properties, maybe like how liu kang flame fist was changed.
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On the matchup discussion thread i posted it, if the bullshit ever get patched in the top tier caracters, JC would get better for sure, imo the whiffing issues are the only real problem with a-list, if they fix it he will be totally viable in tournaments.

FC were a bit stupid before, the problem of b121 imo is the startup frames, this should be better. And a change to bf1 activation/function. Ex version a lot faster would help...beying comboable of f3 :D
 
boy_wunda

boy_wunda

birdie boys unite
Why would you do f2 4, d1, f3, nut punch instead of f2 4, 12, rc, 12, f3, nut punch?
Doing something like: jip, f2 skrc, f2 4, 12, rc, 12, f3, ex nut puch, f3, nut punch will grant you 36 percent from anywhere on the screen, not bad imo. Also, if you replace f2 skrc by 113 skrc or 4 skrc the damage only goes up.
 
rafaw

rafaw

#YouSuck
boy_wunda said:
Why would you do f2 4, d1, f3, nut punch instead of f2 4, 12, rc, 12, f3, nut punch?
Doing something like: jip, f2 skrc, f2 4, 12, rc, 12, f3, ex nut puch, f3, nut punch will grant you 36 percent from anywhere on the screen, not bad imo. Also, if you replace f2 skrc by 113 skrc or 4 skrc the damage only goes up.
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Bc after f24 d1 is reliable 100%, 12 is not.
 
Asodimazze

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
boy_wunda said:
You mean it will whiff against certain charavters? If so, which ones?
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No whiffing problems, it's just pretty hard to do consistently and dropping a combo into a restand is not great.
Maybe offline is worth the risk, online no
 
boy_wunda

boy_wunda

birdie boys unite
Asodimazze said:
No whiffing problems, it's just pretty hard to do consistently and dropping a combo into a restand is not great.
Maybe offline is worth the risk, online no
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I suppose that is true. However, imo it is no harder than doing f4, f2 4, d1, f3, nut punch (another combo cited above).
 
rafaw

rafaw

#YouSuck
Name v.5.0 said:
What an odd thing to say. I can hit F4, F24, D1, F3~Nut Punch 95% of the time. After practicing for 2 hours on F24, 12...I maybe hit it 30% of the time. The link is incredibly tight.
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THIS!

F4, F24, D1, F3xxnp i can do almost 100%, F24, 12 or 21 i can do less than 50% for sure.
 
boy_wunda

boy_wunda

birdie boys unite
I guess I just didn't practice it enough, because I ended up giving up on it due to my not being able to hit it consistently
 
crosstalk

crosstalk

Noob
Top 10 is really stretching it. Personally I have him at the #15 or #16 spot. I think both SD and A-List are his best variations, but Fisticuffs is still good too.

I would have to say Cassie is still his hardest MU, but it would become better if his hitboxes were adjusted. Matches like HQT Predator, Summoner Quan, SQ D'vorah could be worse but they have poor defensive options, so I see them as 4-6.

To me, he's also one of the most fun characters to play in the game.
 
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rafaw

rafaw

#YouSuck
crosstalk said:
Top 10 is really stretching it. Personally I have him at the #15 or #16 spot. I think both SD and A-List are his best variations, but Fisticuffs is still good too.

I would have to say Cassie is still his hardest MU, but it would become better if his hitboxes were adjusted. Matches like HQT Predator, Summoner Quan, SQ D'vorah could be worse but they have poor defensive options, so I see them as 4-6.
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Agreed with the cassie mu, but predator, quan and dvorah im strong inclined to give 5-5, quan maybe 6-4, once you start your pressure they cant do nothing, on wake up they have to block or get full combo punished.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I see Cassie as being superior to JC in many aspects, however JC is much more fun to play. That's really the main reason to pick JC over Cassie, lol. He really is one of the most fulfilling characters to play as he rewards practicing execution, MU knowledge, and making reads well. He seems to allow for a good degree of "freestyling" as opposed to a character like Cassie.

Her small hitbox gives her so many advantages. In general, but also especially against JC.

I agree that due to the strength of many chars its very probable that he is mid tier by definition. But if the patches continue and other characters bullshit gets removed he will likely rise.
 
crosstalk

crosstalk

Noob
rafaw said:
Agreed with the cassie mu, but predator, quan and dvorah im strong inclined to give 5-5, quan maybe 6-4, once you start your pressure they cant do nothing, on wake up they have to block or get full combo punished.
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Yeah I think Cassie might be his only really disadvantageous MU right now. If hitboxes are adjusted, then it could be better. BS Shinnok could be a terrible MU too but I remember CheapEddie thinking it was even, which I thought was interesting. Personally I'd put it at 4-6.

D'vorah's hitbox is annoying, her footsies options can compete with Cage, but her damage blows him away. Could be a 5-5 maybe if hitboxes are adjusted. Summoner QC and HQT Predator just have such a strong zoning game, and I think it outweighs whatever Cage can do. I could maybe see Quan being 5-5 but you have to respect HQT Predator more up close.

But it's still really early for MU numbers and there's still a lot to figure out, those are just my initial impressions.

GGA Dizzy said:
I see Cassie as being superior to JC in many aspects, however JC is much more fun to play. That's really the main reason to pick JC over Cassie, lol. He really is one of the most fulfilling characters to play as he rewards practicing execution, MU knowledge, and making reads well. He seems to allow for a good degree of "freestyling" as opposed to a character like Cassie.

Her small hitbox gives her so many advantages. In general, but also especially against JC.

I agree that due to the strength of many chars its very probable that he is mid tier by definition. But if the patches continue and other characters bullshit gets removed he will likely rise.
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I feel the exact same way haha. Cassie is my main tournament character, but she's so straightforward and every match feels the same. With Cage you definitely have a lot more freedom and there's room for creativity.
 
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