What Does MKX Benefit From Having A Block Button?

[Barrogh]

I honestly not sure why I keep hearing certain things.

1. "Cross up teleports" as a reason for BB...
MK was using button long before those existed. Raiden's TP was much slower back then too, plus it requires to attack after that. Not an issue.
Moves are the way they are because of button, not vica versa.
My theory is that devs made most TPs to cross up because they couldn't be arsed to put projectile invincibility into the game. But that besides the point.

2. "Smoke's TP"
Again, it was designed with BB in mind, not vica versa. But let's imagine we put him in b2b game...
Fullscreen there's no mixup as Smoke cloud isn't fast enough (and if it's semi-b2b like IGAU where low block can't be crossed up, you don't even need to react). Blocking againt TP walks Smoke into the corner in the process btw. Up close you are getting b2/TP mixup, but the latter option doesn't lead to damage and is super unsafe. Not even close to unfair. It really boils down to "reset" glitch which makes another option decent.
Two hits of said TP? As if we can't train to block Earthshaker. Smoke's TP is a lot slower than that.

3. "IGAU Scorp was OP"...
I don't even want to comment on this one. He literally wasn't allowed to live, and what came out then is easily bottom 1 character by far, albeit for unrelated reasons. We don't know shit.
This character is what makes me want to petition TYM mods and ask them to tempban anyone who cries OP before a couple of months past MKX release.

4. B2b forces you to give distance.
Yeah, that's one thing I don't like about b2b. Ability to catch spacing out with long normal in MK is nice too. Good or bad, it's MK-specific.
That said, do you really think MK1 was designed with block button because of balance implication of giving distance on b2b? I don't, and honestly, the reasons behind MK having block button were explained by Boon - tradition and "fans want it". That's pretty much it. We just have to adapt to particular system.

 

[M.D.]

....just because they want to jump left and right on opponents because is the only way they know how to open people up.

^This times >9000

This sentence should probably be stickied to any thread regarding the block button issue.

 

[Barrogh]

*cleaned up this section. related posts were cleaned out so it wasn't needed*-shaowebb

The block button also becomes technical and dificult when you're holding block and you need to retaliate against the pressure system MK offers.

Replace "block" with "back" in your sentence and nothing changes. If anything, pressure in MK is relatively predetermined and lacks both lockdown and reversal options many other FG's have. This designs shares the reason with block button still existing in the first place - MK isn't "competitive first, casuals if they can keep up" kind of game. Doesn't stop us from working the best out of it ofc...

That said, MKX may have quite a bit of lockdown compared to MK9.

 

[M.D.]

Can anyone more knowledgeable then myself shed some light on this? What does MKX benefit from having a block button?

You still don't get it. MKX benefits from the block button by allowing street fighter scrubs that only know to jump in on knockdowns to get destroyed at the game.

It seems like a huge benefit to me.

 

[ShadowBeatz]

I've always kinda of thought easy offense is "scrubbier" than easy defense (not saying b2b is scrubby mind you, just keeping with the theme )

To me, the harder it is to open someone up, the more "skill" it takes. I'm gonna use KI and Spinal as an example. Now, I love KI (probably my favorite fighter I've ever played), but after a back-throw, Spinal can shoot a skull upwards (which is an overhead so it has to be blocked standing) and then either teleport behind you OR in front of you and then hit you with a quick low either before the overhead skull hits OR after it hits. He also has a command overhead that he can hit you with as well. I should also mention that he can cancel the teleport behind into another teleport behind to cross you up again (and I think he can actually do it one more time even) before the overhead skull hits you. It doesn't matter how good you are at a game, that's a LOT to try to take in and read in a span of about 2 seconds.

I know it's a rather extreme case but the Spinal player really just kinda has to more or less "mash" out moves (I can say that, I play Spinal and it's just mashing ) without much thought and chances are the opponent is going to get opened up and eat damage, all off of a THROW. There is so much pressure on the defender. Now, if KI had a block button (not saying it should, just an example), that takes the difficultly of direction out, so while ShadowBeatz is trying to fraud his way to victory, you just have to worry about fuzzy guarding really, which isn't that hard to do because you can see the skull and his overhead are rather slow and MUCH easier to handle if you don't have to worry about teleport cross ups.

So on the flip side, in a block button game, the "easy" part becomes blocking. I can "mash block like a scrub" (drawing parallels. like "mashing teleports" only this is now on the defensive side) but that's not going to get me anywhere. Make the easier thing the thing that isn't going to win you the match (you can't block someone's life bar away). Some may bring up "turtling" as an argument against this but in order to turtle, you need the life lead, which you can't get by holding block.

Probably not a good idea to write an essay at 2 in the morning but yolo

 

[Eddy Wang]

Replace "block" with "back" in your sentence and nothing changes. If anything, pressure in MK is relatively predetermined and lacks both lockdown and reversal options many other FG's have. This designs shares the reason with block button still existing in the first place - MK isn't "competitive first, casuals if they can keep up" kind of game. Doesn't stop us from working the best out of it ofc...

That said, MKX may have quite a bit of lockdown compared to MK9.

I have to half disagree on you bro, in MK games you can't retaliate with the block button down, no matter what buttons you press, the block button has superior priority over other buttons in the game. In UMK3, MK3, Trilogy you could even cancel jabs animations straight into block.

In Back to block games, peoples are allowed to mash buttons, since blocking is only a passive state and entirely depending of the opponent active frames, the second the game tells the defender "the blockstun is over" the character automaticaly stops blocking and his mashing becomes active as replacement.

Basically, in b2b whenever you hold back and an attack is in place, the game blocks for you as long as you're holding back, and stops blocking for you when the attack is over, in MK you can choose either if you want to block or take the hit, and you can choose to unblock whenever you feel like.

 

[Eji1700]

Either way his question has essentially been answered.

It doesn't matter if they started doing X or Y thing becuase of the block button, but the fact is that now that they're better at design they've found ways to exploit having a block button, and the game benefits from it. Defense is somewhat easy mode, in a sense, but blocking doesn't give you nearly as much safety as in a traditional fighter(dear god the chip), and there's still plenty of other ways to open someone up. It certainly benefits the design at this point, and I think injustice shows decently that you can do a B2B system if you want, but I don't think that it's required, necessary, or objectively better.

 

[Jaku2011]

Never was a big block button fan but honestly with the ridiculous types of moves MK has you kinda need it.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Block button is perfect for whiff punishing. Avoiding scrubby ambiguous cross ups that sf players seem to love so much. Prevents for stupid reversal mashing etc etc.

 

[Johnny San]

Scanning through, I see people mentioning that you always have to move back when you block. Or rather, moving from one side of the screen through projectiles requires you to walk backwards.

Couldn't you just crouch block? Seems like I'm missing something here.

 

[Doombawkz]

Scanning through, I see people mentioning that you always have to move back when you block. Or rather, moving from one side of the screen through projectiles requires you to walk backwards.

Couldn't you just crouch block? Seems like I'm missing something here.

You could, yeah. Though some mechanics in MK abuse crouch blocking vs neutral crouching from what I saw earlier in the thread soooo idk?

 

[M.D.]

Block button is perfect for whiff punishing. Avoiding scrubby ambiguous cross ups that sf players seem to love so much. Prevents for stupid reversal mashing etc etc.

Perfectly said, "scrubby ambigous crossups". How many times I've heard, even in pro play (sf4, injustice) stuff like
"Not even he knew on what side that'd hit".

When not even the attacker knows on what side that hits, but he just doesn't care and does it anyway, letting the defender do all the work (and by work I mean RANDOM GUESSING) - it is called a scrubby tactic.

And as for the "crouch block thing", doesn't that disable footsies? Seems like a big disadvantage to me.

 

[Johnny San]

Perfectly said, "scrubby ambigous crossups". How many times I've heard, even in pro play (sf4, injustice) stuff like
"Not even he knew on what side that'd hit".

If we're going to talk about the "scrubiness" of crossups, shouldn't bring up their purpose? Rewarding knockdowns.

I think it's something pretty neat. You get rewarded beyond damage for opening an opponent and ending accordingly. On some level, I guess you could say it emphasizes the neutral game more in that way than a block button would.

 

[M.D.]

You could see it as a reward, but you get the same reward doing 50-50s on wakeup, and throw. Also, it makes the game not centered on knockdowns as much, which is less boring to watch, play and enjoy. At least for me.

 

[Error404]

Look there will always be 50/50s in fighting games . Having them be overhead/low is more consistent the being left to right. Also back to block systems with proximity blocking create proximity OSs while in once without it you can walk out of frame traps a lot of the time.Furthermore because the block button overwrites everything else you have to recognize patterns in block strings and make use of highs that whiff on crouching opponents that don't block. This is the foundation of the meta game in mk9 and is what makes it different from every other game out there. And unlike SF if you choose to block and just sit there you take chip damage and you're forced to act. If you feel like mashing DPs in block stun you're playing the wrong game.

 

[Johnny San]

after a back-throw, Spinal can shoot a skull upwards (which is an overhead so it has to be blocked standing) and then either teleport behind you OR in front of you and then hit you with a quick low either before the overhead skull hits OR after it hits. He also has a command overhead that he can hit you with as well. I should also mention that he can cancel the teleport behind into another teleport behind to cross you up again (and I think he can actually do it one more time even) before the overhead skull hits you. It doesn't matter how good you are at a game, that's a LOT to try to take in and read in a span of about 2 seconds.

I just realized that this is blocking Smoke's teleport in a back-to-block system.

 

[coolwhip]

Ah, yes, another thing that gets thrown around so often and people just believe without really thinking it through. Contrary to popular belief, the block button does not mean the game is for scrubs and doesn't value defense. Cross-ups are not the end all be all.

The block button can be essential in footsies and spacing. For instance, if you're attempting to walk back and forth in a back to block game while playing footsies, when you're walking backwards, you're also blocking at the same time, which covers plenty of options (a projectile, a non cross up jump in, and mid/high/overhead attack, etc...). However, in a game like say, MK9, when you're walking back and forth, you're not blocking at the same time unless you stop and block. So simply walking backwards could still get you blown up if for example, you misjudge the distance on a jump in that you wanted to trip guard, and you eat a full combo. You can see it at around the 7:10 mark of this video (DJT vs. Cowboy footsie orgasm extravaganza):

Moreover, the block button allows you to be more in control of your spacing in many situations. I mean what if you want to hold your ground while blocking? In a back to block game, you can't, because you have to hold back which means walking backwards, unless you want to commit to crouch blocking, which might not be ideal in certain situations.

So yeah, that's not to say that one mechanic is better than the other, but the idea that back to block is automatically superior and a block button is easy mode is just false.

 

[Barrogh]

I just realized that this is blocking Smoke's teleport in a back-to-block system.

Not quite. More like dealing with Zatanna's vortex and Lex' ES setups at once, with a caveat that you can break combos for free - as long as you react/guess correctly to combo extenders.

Kinda the reason you can see a lot of this "setplay" and KD abuse in KI - no matter how you get opened up, you can still try to get out after.

 

[AnaboliChris]

To everyone saying how OP pre-patch Scorpion was. No he wasnt. I had no trouble with him whats so ever. And eventually didnt people found out that you could just crouch to totally avoiding the teleport punch?

If I saw someone holding the block button, I'm not going to teleport punch anyway,..no that will get me punished. So if people are doing it when the opponent isnt blocking then pressing the block button is the same reaction time as you would press the back button.

 

[kabelfritz]

Genuinely asking.

From what I can tell, every traditional Mortal Kombat has had a block button. The way I look at it, a game has a mechanic for the sole reason of having some benefit to gameplay. However when I put my mind to it, I can't even think of a reason as to what a block button actually does for gameplay (aside from eliminating cross-ups and such). Couldn't these game's be playable with a Back-to-Block system? In my head, I don't see how any existing mechanics are changed by this system. My initial thoughts even led me to believe that the games would actually benefit from that system since more game mechanics are being introduced. However, I don't see my myself as an "expert" when it comes to Mortal Kombat fighting game mechanics (or even general fighting game mechanics) so I'm most likely thinking about this from the wrong angle.

Can anyone more knowledgeable then myself shed some light on this? What does MKX benefit from having a block button?

i was wondering the same thing. it makes the game easier because it disables crossups (or, if you want, harder for the attacker to open someone up). mk9 dashblock wouldnt have been possible in B2b games. Also, you really gotta block if you dont want to get hit. no more lucky/auto blocks by walking backwards. on a more meta level, it differentiates MK from other franchises. anyway, its a classic MK mechanic and it wont go away, and i wouldnt want it to even if it might be not the best. (my favourite might be direction AND button, but pls dont have ambiguous crossup jumps that stuff doesnt make a sense)

 

[Barrogh]

mk9 dashblock wouldnt have been possible in B2b games.

I agree with the rest, but not on this one. Nothing prevented devs to code block button to override dash, nothing would've stopped them from allowing back button do the same if they wanted to.
Well, discussing mechanics that never happened is fun

 

[kabelfritz]

I agree with the rest, but not on this one. Nothing prevented devs to code block button to override dash, nothing would've stopped them from allowing back button do the same if they wanted to.
Well, discussing mechanics that never happened is fun

ok but it couldnt have been used to move forward mk style, when you always have to walk a step back.

 

[JHCRANE 14]

Genuinely asking.

From what I can tell, every traditional Mortal Kombat has had a block button. The way I look at it, a game has a mechanic for the sole reason of having some benefit to gameplay. However when I put my mind to it, I can't even think of a reason as to what a block button actually does for gameplay (aside from eliminating cross-ups and such). Couldn't these game's be playable with a Back-to-Block system? In my head, I don't see how any existing mechanics are changed by this system. My initial thoughts even led me to believe that the games would actually benefit from that system since more game mechanics are being introduced. However, I don't see my myself as an "expert" when it comes to Mortal Kombat fighting game mechanics (or even general fighting game mechanics) so I'm most likely thinking about this from the wrong angle.

Can anyone more knowledgeable then myself shed some light on this? What does MKX benefit from having a block button?

Note: Not really discussing the meta. Just the mechanics.

So it's not like every other fighting game out there with back to block.

 

[quandaghost]

In IMO 1 thing you need to remember about MK. Any dmg is chip dmg on a character. That means in this game you are always being rewarded for hitting someone safely. Characters like Kabal who can standing reset you from a 30% combo can do around 15 to 20% chip just off of their pressure. With that in mind not having the b2b system you get the opportunity to poke out of said pressure when certain moves are input.

So not only does having the block button effect how one spaces themselves out, and eliminate cross-ups it enables the ability to poke out of blockstrings that do not jail, or have tiny gaps. Which one has to have knowledge of which strings have certain gaps, when can gaps be poked out of, and in turn creates a whole new mindgame in which now the defender must asses the probability of being baited, or punished for trying to punish a gap in the string.

Also realize you are playing a game where complete invisibility is possible. Try guessing where someone is gonna land when you cannot even see them. Characters such as Reptile and Smoke would be unbeatable because for 1 bar they could essentially guarantee you are gonna lose 35% of your life, or two bars of meter from you, and if they messed up they could get out for 2 bars but you in the same situation. Now lets take another look at reptile. The character can dash, and reach you about the same time as the slow ball does. In a back to block game this would create situation where reptile could set-up a "hard to block" situation. Giving him the ability to create totally invisible "hard to block" mix-ups. Kung Lao could also get the same options of ex-low hat. While not invisible for one bar you would have to guess when he or that hat would touch you first block both, and deal with his pressure, and coupled with all the dmg, and mobility. Imagine fighting a Freddy kruger that could do projectile launchers behind you with the little green drop thing falling in ontop of you. With there being no downside for him, or any of them for missing them. They get the free chip if they don't land it. They get full combos if they do, and then they can easily do it all over again if they guessed wrong. Their rewards would out weigh the inherent risk.

Characters in sf4 generally have to fadc which is 2 bars of meter and have to still risk something to set that stuff up. In MK something like that is just 1 bar of meter, and you still get to break the punish if you guessed wrong or messed it up, and your opponent would get nothing for guessing right except for being back at neutral, and a loss of two bars of meter. Nothing for being the better player in that instance. It would make some characters way too powerful the system in which the mechanic would exist. Imagine being a character like scorpion where you have a bad neutral game. Your 50/50 is super unsafe, and you have little to no options to keep pressure going because you don't have advantage on your d3 or d4. You would be unplayable. A lot of characters would be.

 

[BRUTALITY]

could MK be played with a down to block button like IGAU?