Discussion What characters deserve a few buffs?

[dennycascade]

Id add smokeborg, hes not nearly as strong a variation as most other characters variations left off the list. With lack of armor, holes everywhere, hitbox issues on b21, and a relatively heavy reliance on a mediocre vortex. Id like to see some frame data tweaks and/or a damage scaling rework. Hes just not viable against alot of the top tier characters as is.

This is why TYM needs a dislike button.

 

[Olcadan13]

Only buff that dualist really NEEDS is to fix red orbs breaking in the corner on certain maps

 

[Pan1cMode]

I mean Special Forces is ok but could be better, like for example they could've reduced the recovery on her park drone to make it worth using as a move or decreased the recovery on her B2 to open up more combo opportunities.

Special forces is literally on the cusp of being stupid broken. As it is, the fact that drone has a timer is the only thing that makes special forces less broke than demo. Anyone suggesting buffs for this variation needs to lab it more. It's not even training mode broke like high tech, it's just regular broke.

In terms of variations that need help:

- Kitana: All variations (Damage buff for mournful, ex fans made +4, Kitana reflect 11 frame startup [down from 15])

- Tanya: All variations (Dust restands in pyro, f3 launches more consistently, damage buff for kobu and pyro, gap removed in b12+4~special, ex Tonfa toss made +4 on block, ex pogo launches really high for to allow consistent combo, overhead option of pogo sped up by 5 frames

- Kung Jin: Ancestral (get rid of arrow timers)

- Jacqui Briggs: High tech (9 frame d4 [down from 14], 7 frame absorb/reflect [down from 11], 13 frame df2 [down from 15])

- Kung Lao: Hatrick (fix his mids)

- Triborg: CSZ, Cyrax and smoke (allow f13, b2 and b3 to combo into ice ball, more advantage on 1112 string, cyrax ex tele launches for combo, [make it as punishable as scorpion's Tele] damage buff for cyrax, net has pre-patch frame advantage, net and bomb allowed in same combo [net causes tech rollable knockdown when expired and puts opponent into an invincible state preventing relaunch] fix smoke's mids )

- Liu Kang: Dualist (stance switch is 2 frames faster, fix combo oddities/inconsistencies, make heal useable [slower startup but much much faster health regen?], make damage buff useable, fix his orb trap corner inconsistencies)

- Kenshi: all variations (ex bf3 hits mid in balanced, balanced db4 is +5 on hit [up from -1], balanced db4 has 5 frames faster start up, balanced ex db4 launches allowing for a bf3 to connect midscreen, balanced ex bf2 is +2 [up from -2], possessed increased meter build, possessed tele 5 frames faster startup [but 5 frames extra whiff recovery], kenjutsu ex df1 recaptures for launch [like Goro punch walk], kenjutsu regular df1 is -7 on block, fix gaps in all kenshi's strings)

- Bo Rai Cho: All variations (triple the distance backdash covers and reduce recovery, slightly faster walk speed)

- Johnny Cage: Fisticuffs (give an ex first bump that recovers instantly)

- Subzero: Unbreakable (sub zero can 'stack' aura buffs [up to 3] that provide more damage/higher launch [eg. 3 buffs would cause regular clone smash to launch for full combo] ex parry starts up in 1 frame, parry can now parry projectiles)

- D'Vorah: Venomous and Brood Mother (consistent combos using mb bug blast, venomous specific armour [ex u3])


MOS Raiden, Metalic and Aftershock Tremor and Inferno Scorp probably need some help too but I don't know enough about them to suggest anything.

Characters that don't need any buffs (in any variation):
- Alien
- Cassie cage
- Ermac
- Ferra/Torr
- Jax
- Kotal Khan
- Mileena
- Quan Chi
- Reptile
- Sonya
- Takeda

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Brood Mother doesnt need buffs

 

[Meep8345]

Oh ok so now that I wrote why I THINK outlaw is shit, it's downplaying?...

opinion != downplaying

All the stuff I post about is Erron is what I genuinely believe except once in a while I'll post some #bufferron stuff but that's just all jokes. And yes I do genuinely believe outlaw is shit except in some match ups and like you said it could be I'm looking at the variation wrong. And if I am looking at it wrong instead of accusing me as an Erron downplayer you could of told me how Outlaw is supposed to be played now so I can play better with him and rethink my opinion of him.

And I was actually trying to figure out the new outlaw and even suggested F22 after ex-sand could maybe be viable. You'd think if I was downplaying I would not be doing that. But I tried everything with outlaw and Gunslinger does everything better now.

I don't think you've really tried everything with outlaw. You can do 21122 on block then since most people love to poke just block their poke and counter-poke with 21122 if you read they won't mash d1 twice or just 50/50 them if they're respecting their negative frames. If you read that they'll do anything but armor or poke you can just d1 then since it comes out in 8 frames and no mid in the game can punish you for doing 21122 d1. Also if you read they'll press a button after 21122 you can just ex sand trap/ex ex sand throw. And an outlaw that has a tarkatan stab knockdown with 2 bars can easily end a game. Have you even tried d1 tick throw or s1 tick throw? Or knocking someone down with sand trap and running up and doing a sand trap again as they're getting up? It's easy opening people up with grabs and once you condition them they'll want to start neutral ducking which makes his 50/50's and 21122 way scarier. Besides his sand trap oki is pretty solid and once you condition them to respect the knockdown you can just run up and 50/50 them. Plus 11 has to be fuzzy guarded and you can just mess with their fuzzy with 11 b32. Error is still very solid but you need good fundamentals to play him well.

 

[flappysamyhamy]

People who think special forces is bad are so wrong, that variation is the spawn of satan.. it's just being foreshadowed by demo currently. Just wait, soon everyone will be complaining about it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Buff Cyber Sub, holy fuck balls, wtf Paulo. I almost never react like this out get mad at Paulo, but why did he deserve this, and Alien, Cage, etc.. gets a slap on the wrist? Yes Mileena must have NEEDED what she all she has, the same why CSZ NEEDED to get face fucked. Also, I'm not attacking Alien, Cage, or Mileena, I'm just puzzled by the way Triborg especially was handled.

 

[21122]

I don't think you've really tried everything with outlaw. You can do 21122 on block then since most people love to poke just block their poke and counter-poke with 21122 if you read they won't mash d1 twice or just 50/50 them if they're respecting their negative frames. If you read that they'll do anything but armor or poke you can just d1 then since it comes out in 8 frames and no mid in the game can punish you for doing 21122 d1. Also if you read they'll press a button after 21122 you can just ex sand trap/ex ex sand throw. And an outlaw that has a tarkatan stab knockdown with 2 bars can easily end a game. Have you even tried d1 tick throw or s1 tick throw? Or knocking someone down with sand trap and running up and doing a sand trap again as they're getting up? It's easy opening people up with grabs and once you condition them they'll want to start neutral ducking which makes his 50/50's and 21122 way scarier. Besides his sand trap oki is pretty solid and once you condition them to respect the knockdown you can just run up and 50/50 them. Plus 11 has to be fuzzy guarded and you can just mess with their fuzzy with 11 b32. Error is still very solid but you need good fundamentals to play him well.

Yes I use d1 tick throw and s1 tick throw but only once I condition my opponent. After the patch I been using his tick throw in the netural a lot, the reach is so good! Once my opponent starts catching on that im doing lots of raw tick throws on their wake up I start going for 50/50s.

 

[Youphemism]

Special forces is literally on the cusp of being stupid broken. As it is, the fact that drone has a timer is the only thing that makes special forces less broke than demo. Anyone suggesting buffs for this variation needs to lab it more. It's not even training mode broke like high tech, it's just regular broke.

Lol Panic stop, I play Special Forces. It's not on the cusp of being broken but it is strong. What makes you think something as wild as that?

 

[Meep8345]

Yes I use d1 tick throw and s1 tick throw but only once I condition my opponent. After the patch I been using his tick throw in the netural a lot, the reach is so good! Once my opponent starts catching on that im doing lots of raw tick throws on their wake up I start going for 50/50s.

Well I don't see why you think erron isn't that good if your making them fear the command grab.

 

[21122]

Well I don't see why you think erron isn't that good if your making them fear the command grab.

I never said Erron isn't good. Erron is a great character specifically gunslinger and marksman. Its outlaw that I think is shit now after the changes he got. Like Outlaw isn't total garbage but I don't see a reason to use him over gunslinger anymore, can't say over marksman since I don't use that variation much at all. Gunslinger has so many more options and mix ups compared to Outlaw. Not to mention Gunslinger can play both the neutral and up close pressure game very well.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

IF ANY OF YALL DIDN'T VOTE FOR DUALIST, YOU'RE THE DEVIL


(i voted for dualist anyways)

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Can you edit the poll? Vicious is fine, hell I was still kicking ass before we could meterburn the tosses and cancel 2f4. Vicious is fine where it is (overshadowed by Ruthless maybe but fine).

Lackey on the other I think could do with a tiny buff. Something that actually gives him an option/presence at fullscreen. I have one of 4 suggestions. (It started with two)

1. Low ground pound starting up in 10-15f. Not unblockable, and can't be meterburned to launch, and doesn't track you have to space it. Just something that prevents opponents from just spamming projectiles (yes we have free armour on charge but almost every character can get another fireball out before we reach them at full screen, some even closer) freely.

2. Ferra-straction - with a longer start up (maybe 20f) Torr throws or "tells" ferra to go harass the opponent. No damage, all it causes is a pseudo-block stun, and you can block it for no chip damage and much much less stun (on hit maybe 13f of advantage, maybe just +4 on block). With the long start up you would have options to avoid even on hit, and it wouldn't be near as good pressure tool as b12, d1, d3, and command grab already are.

3. Eating a projectile with bf3 should add just a few recovery frames (the animation could simply be the opponent shocked that Torr just tanked the projectile) to the opponent, not enough that the incoming hit is guaranteed from mid or full screen. But enough that another projectile or normal would have to be frame perfect to come out and stuff the charge. The free armour exists only on the first four frames and we get literally no reward for hitting that window. Charge takes 30f to start, punishable, and certain death on whiff. I don't feel like I should be punished for using my only option to get in full screen.

4. Let us low profile with ball roll.

These options in no way buff what Lackey already dose incredible well, Pressure and damage. But it address the glaring weakness that we have no presence at full screen or even 2/3. This already is a weakness for the character in general, but since R/V have the tosses (that are already pretty avoidable), there is at least an option your opponent has to respect/forces them to do something other than spamming.

@Doombawkz @Blewdew @joeldm thoughts??

 

[Pan1cMode]

Lol Panic stop, I play Special Forces. It's not on the cusp of being broken but it is strong. What makes you think something as wild as that?

I play special forces.

Safe 50/50 into plus into another 50/50 into plus. You have like 5-10 seconds to continue mixing up your opponent until they guess wrong and when they do you get a full combo into a drone call to repeat the situation.

You have a free combo breaker with BLK+2, hard-to-blockables and armour breaking setups from 50/50s in the corner, great neutral with b1, divekick and f1, decent midscreen damage, 47% x-Ray combos, decent zoning/counter zoning, easy way to get in, ridiculous plus frames; this variation doesn't need anything.

Can you edit the poll? Vicious is fine, hell I was still kicking ass before we could meterburn the tosses and cancel 2f4. Vicious is fine where it is (overshadowed by Ruthless maybe but fine).

Lackey on the other I think could do with a tiny buff. Something that actually gives him an option/presence at fullscreen. I have one of 4 suggestions. (It started with two)

1. Low ground pound starting up in 10-15f. Not unblockable, and can't be meterburned to launch, and doesn't track you have to space it. Just something that prevents opponents from just spamming projectiles (yes we have free armour on charge but almost every character can get another fireball out before we reach them at full screen, some even closer) freely.

2. Ferra-straction - with a longer start up (maybe 20f) Torr throws or "tells" ferra to go harass the opponent. No damage, all it causes is a pseudo-block stun, and you can block it for no chip damage and much much less stun (on hit maybe 13f of advantage, maybe just +4 on block). With the long start up you would have options to avoid even on hit, and it wouldn't be near as good pressure tool as b12, d1, d3, and command grab already are.

3. Eating a projectile with bf3 should add just a few recovery frames (the animation could simply be the opponent shocked that Torr just tanked the projectile) to the opponent, not enough that the incoming hit is guaranteed from mid or full screen. But enough that another projectile or normal would have to be frame perfect to come out and stuff the charge. The free armour exists only on the first four frames and we get literally no reward for hitting that window. Charge takes 30f to start, punishable, and certain death on whiff. I don't feel like I should be punished for using my only option to get in full screen.

4. Let us low profile with ball roll.

These options in no way buff what Lackey already dose incredible well, Pressure and damage. But it address the glaring weakness that we have no presence at full screen or even 2/3. This already is a weakness for the character in general, but since R/V have the tosses (that are already pretty avoidable), there is at least an option your opponent has to respect/forces them to do something other than spamming.

@Doombawkz @Blewdew @joeldm thoughts??

Lackey is arguably Ferra/Torr's best variation. It needs no buffs lol.

 

[Meep8345]

I never said Erron isn't good. Erron is a great character specifically gunslinger and marksman. Its outlaw that I think is shit now after the changes he got. Like Outlaw isn't total garbage but I don't see a reason to use him over gunslinger anymore, can't say over marksman since I don't use that variation much at all. Gunslinger has so many more options and mix ups compared to Outlaw. Not to mention Gunslinger can play both the neutral and up close pressure game very well.

I forgot about his njp. It's +3 at any height and if you do it low enough it's +7 or so and jails a d1. That,armor they have to respect, and better oki gives a decent reason to pick him over the others. I think they're all equally as good but outlaw seems more well-rounded to me.

 

[omooba]

don't put cyrax and csz in same thing cus imo csz needs a buff and cyrax needs nada

 

[honeybooboo]

make Bo Rai Cho top 5 pls

The tym uproar would far exceed anything imaginable. I can already see it... "Why is the face of mkx's meta a comic relief that nobody wanted? Why nrs?"

 

[Youphemism]

I play special forces.

Safe 50/50 into plus into another 50/50 into plus. You have like 5-10 seconds to continue mixing up your opponent until they guess wrong and when they do you get a full combo into a drone call to repeat the situation.

You have a free combo breaker with BLK+2, hard-to-blockables and armour breaking setups from 50/50s in the corner, great neutral with b1, divekick and f1, decent midscreen damage, 47% x-Ray combos, decent zoning/counter zoning, easy way to get in, ridiculous plus frames; this variation doesn't need anything.

Wait what? Safe 50/50 into plus into another 50/50 into plus? What sequence is that supposed to be?

Yeah if you manage to do it just before they hit you, it doesn't work like a breaker if you're in the middle of being hit. The hard to blockables are highly specific and usually not worth it when you can use drone to actually get a combo. Most of the cast can armour break, not all with 50/50s though. "great neutral with B1" is just fluff and that's not SF specific either, nor is "divekick and f1", "47% x-Ray combos" (and that's also specific because you need to have drone out), "decent zoning/counter zoning" (which is also exaggerated because she has a mediocre zoning game and anyone that knows the matchup isn't going to sit there blocking it all), "easy way to get in" (which is also not true for someone who knows the matchup) and "ridiculous plus frames" yeah from a 30+ frame low you can jump/armour out of on reaction.
You're talking about SF like TYM talks about High Tech Jacqui...

So what you're actually saying about SF that's actually just to do with SF that makes her "on the cusp of being stupid broken" is that first sequence you mentioned that I'm not actually sure what it is yet lol.

 

[Tweedy]

Warrior is essentially variationless Predator and needs an actual reason to be picked

No he's not. Since the dread slam buff, there's a legitimate reason to use him over the other variation. He has legitimate 50/50 launchers that can be turned into 33/33/33 launchers with the proper set up.

We're looking at the next Mileena/Takeda if this character gets buffed even more.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Wait what? Safe 50/50 into plus into another 50/50 into plus? What sequence is that supposed to be?

Yeah if you manage to do it just before they hit you, it doesn't work like a breaker if you're in the middle of being hit. The hard to blockables are highly specific and usually not worth it when you can use drone to actually get a combo. Most of the cast can armour break, not all with 50/50s though. "great neutral with B1" is just fluff and that's not SF specific either, nor is "divekick and f1", "47% x-Ray combos" (and that's also specific because you need to have drone out), "decent zoning/counter zoning" (which is also exaggerated because she has a mediocre zoning game and anyone that knows the matchup isn't going to sit there blocking it all), "easy way to get in" (which is also not true for someone who knows the matchup) and "ridiculous plus frames" yeah from a 30+ frame low you can jump/armour out of on reaction.
You're talking about SF like TYM talks about High Tech Jacqui...

So what you're actually saying about SF that's actually just to do with SF that makes her "on the cusp of being stupid broken" is that first sequence you mentioned that I'm not actually sure what it is yet lol.

50/50 into BLK+2, they poke out they get hit and eat full combo, they block you're hella plus, go for your 50/50 again. You can also use BLK+1 if you're so inclined. They have to respect the d3 so it opens you up for b1.

When BLK+2 is on the screen, it's like Cassie's ex missile. You pretty much have to hold it. Obviously it doesn't work in the middle of a combo. It does provide an easy way to get in. Obviously they're not gonna sit there blocking, but once missile is on the screen, they have to respect it. Your neutral become 1000x better than half the cast because even if you whiff something, three is a missile to combo break if they try and punish.

b1 and f1 are amazingly good footsie tools. Far reaching, fast mid/overhead. Maybe it's because I've come from Jacqui, but I would kill for normals like that.

The unblockable setups aren't really that situational at all and you sacrifice ~5% to go for them over the BLK+4 combos.

X-ray, RUN~b2, 2134 is 47% into knockdown into drone summon midscreen. No need for drone prior. In the corner, you get 52% into the same setup, without drone already active.

SF is not all gimmicks and you know it. You can't jump out of the low kamikaze on reaction because you risk getting hit by BLK+1 or BLK+2. The ridiculous plus frames came from both BLK+4 and BLK+2. This isn't high tech "she's broken because of a super situational block infinite and it's not like she's actually gonna ever get to touch you anyway because lol trex limbs, poor footsies and no pokes", this is SF sonya with an already very powerful base set of normals with drone that gives her some really amazing tools.

I honestly think SF is only a small bit behind demo and definitely better than covert ops.

This also isn't me just theorycrafting after going into the lab and seeing what she can do. I've done this in games before. It's definitely applicable and not in the realm of high tech Jacqui (which btw, I still think is semi-viable, at lest in some matchups.)

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

I'll speak about my character.

Dualist's buffs and fix

1 - Fix the orb's issue that make orbs explode on walls.

2 - Healing: 1% while held the animation and 3% when Liu Kang ends the animation. This way, the healing would be a high risk/high reward special move.

3 - Orb's hurtbox: increase regular orb, low orb and air orb hurtbox because they're very small.

4 - Orb's distance: decrease all orbs distance when Liu Kang puts them on screen because when Liu Kang puts them instantly on screen, they stay too far from Liu Kang.

5 - Air orb: faster recovery on air orb to make it useful. 15 frames faster on recovery would be very nice.

6 - EX orb: make the EX orb negates any projectile like EX ice ball.

7 - Frame links to combo: 1 frame faster on recovery of metamorphosis to make the frame links a little bit easy to combo. (F1,2 into SS into S1 is 1 frame to link )

 

[STRYKIE]

No he doesn't need old OTG but lol EX stone punch that's like 3%.

I said upward EX stone punch to extend the combo. Not for the extra damage that the EX version does.

To be honest Tremor's legitimate 1 bar damage output is probably still unexplored since people just used the OTG instead for 7 months.

 

[Marinjuana]

I said upward EX stone punch to extend the combo. Not for the extra damage that the EX version does. To be honest Tremor's legitimate 1 bar damage output is probably still unexplored since people just used the OTG instead for 7 months.

EX stone punch is identical to regular stone punch but with armor and more damage. And you can cancel it.

 

[HellRider]

out of curiosity what variations would you buff/adjust/accommodate out of Kenshi, Triborg, BRC, and Tanya?

all of them, basically. Tanya was nuked and Triborg got some severe nerfs. BRC and Kenshi were never really allowed to live. I would just leave Dragon Breath untouched and maybe Kenjutsu and Possessed. I would also like to buff Inferno but that's just because Scorp is my main

 

[N00B]

Immortal Thunder God Raiden needs better neutral game tools and fast unsafe armor for deffense in thunder god and some fixes.
1) 10-11 fr F2 -3 on block long recovery long range not true mid (down from 15 fr F2 +2 on block long recovery long range not true mid).
2) 11 fr D4 -6 on block and +10 on hit long range low poke (down from 13 fr D4 -4 on block and +19 on hit long range low poke).
2) 12 fr DF2 -6 on block long recovery Mid (from 12 fr DF2 -7 on block long recovery High).
3) 14 fr MB DF2 -17 on block long recovery armor launcher Mid (from 14 fr MB DF2 -17 on block long recovery armor launcher High).
4) 7-8 fr DB2 -17 Mid (down from 15 fr DB2 -17 High).
5) 7-8 fr MB DB2 -30 on block armor launcher Mid (down from 22 fr MB DB2 0 on block armor launcher High).
6) F12B2 hold 2 *GAP* DF2 and 112 hold 2 *GAP* DF2 gayps removed.
7) 9 fr B2 -30 on block (down from 13 fr B2 -30 on block). THATS 9 fr B2 ONLY CAUSE HE IS A GOD!!! ( For example Shinnok has 7 fr low that no one has)

Kung Fu Master Kung Lao needs faster normals for better up close game and faster more usefull normals, strings for more fun and some fixes and buffs for Hat Trick.
1) 6 fr S1 high (down from 8 fr S1 high).
2) 9 fr 11 mid (down from 11 fr 11 mid).
3) 8 fr B1 -6 on block short range not whiffing true mid (from 12 fr short range whiffing not true mid -11 on block).
4) 13 fr B3 -5 on block mid (down from 15 fr -3 on block mid).
5) 12 fr F3 -8 on block +5 on hit mid (down from 19 fr -8 on block -1 on hit mid).
6) 11 fr F4 -6 on block not launching overhead (down from 18 fr -13 on block not launching overhead).
7) Tempest 19 fr DB1 Hat Spin -6 on block (from 19 fr DB1 Hat Spin -3 on block).
8) Hat Trick hat trap -6 on block (from minus **** on block).
9) Hat Trick hat call back true mid and not whiffs on females (from not true mid and whiffs on females).
10 Hat Trick regular hat call back +1 on block (from minus **** on block).
11) Hat Trick MB hat call back +10 on block (down from +13 on block).
12) Hat Trick hat a rang hits opponent when come backs even if Kung Lao gets hits and +3 on block (down from 0).
13) Hat Trick and Buzz Saw regular spin DF1 and MB DF1 spin +5% damage.

P.S.
Raiden now has a lot of problems, bad neutral game, slow armor e.t.c. and a lot of bad match ups, he just not a complete strong character. Raiden is the Immortal Thunder God and even withought hes Godlike Thunder powers he is the best, skillfull Martial Arts Master in MK universe. He is the type of rushdown character with mix ups and withought good zoning , all this buffs are fair, balanced, reasonable, much needed and makes sense. This buffs with some nerfs would make him a very strong fair and balanced character like Jax, Shinnok e.t.c.
Kung Lao now has a lot of problems slow normals for a rushdown character, bad up close game e.t.c. and a lot of bad match ups, he just not a complete strong character. Kung Lao is Kung Fu Master and he is the second best, skillfull Marial Arts Master in MK universe after Raiden. He is the type of rushdown character withoght mix ups and withoght good zoning, all this buffs are fair, balanced, reasonable, much needed and makes sense. This buffs with some nerfs would make him a very strong fair and balanced character like Jax, Shinnok e.t.c.