What character do you see as the scrubbiest?

[Wigy]

sub if we’re talking about the most yolo character that carries

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Imo, people seem to have a strange definition of 'scrubby' in this thread. High risk/reward isn't "scrubby", because you can usually punish that option just as hard as you get hit for guessing wrong (and in some cases, even harder, depending on the character).

These are normal fighting game mechanics that can be annoying, sure, but are not 'scrubby', any more then something like zoning is 'scrubby'.

Also, as much as people complain about Sub, you don't really see anybody being 'carried' to Top 8 with Sub who wouldn't be there anyway with other characters. Because even if they have one good game or round, they're just as likely to get blown up in the next one if they aren't playing smart.

The only successful subs have learned when to take the risks — and they pick their moments and stay safe a lot/play footsies, rather than just 50/50 all the time. You'll never see Konqueror or 2EZ, etc. just mixing every second, because it doesn't get you very far against good competition.

If you want an example of this, watch 2EZ vs. Poppacap and pay attention to how 2EZ uses movement, spacing, d1 checks, b2 checks/anti-airs, and a lot of footsies with b14 to defeat Poppacap constantly trying to make hard reads in every moment with f2/slide/etc. Even when he does f2, a lot of the time it's f2~Creeping Ice, which does a whopping 14% damage on hit.

 

[Shale101]

I think this game is a scrub. So many infuriating tools characters have and players MUST use them because there really isn't any other option. I mean are you going to play sub zero and not do 50/50's? Are you going to play jade and not throw air projectiles? Will you play scorpion and not constantly fake jump ins then teleport last second ? This game is so watered down.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Using the game's mechanics is pretty scrubby, true. Couldn't be me.

 

[REO]

Who wants to come back to MKX with me? We had options for days. Playing Ermac and doing low profiling D+3 and if it hit going into overhead starter F+4 or low starter B+3. If you fought someone good that would block them you could do your one-frame armor start up EX Push afterwards for added depth and mindgames. So good.

My favorite character was Jason, though. Loved his crazy sick BNBs like:

B+1,2,1, B+1,2,1 B+1,2,1 B+1,2~Choke

Hype wall carry. Gonna play MKX ranked now. Game was just so good and ahead of it's time.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

Who wants to come back to MKX with me? We had options for days. Playing Ermac and doing low profiling D+3 and if it hit going into overhead starter F+4 or low starter B+3. If you fought someone good that would block them you could do your one-frame armor start up EX Push afterwards for added depth and mindgames. So good.

My favorite character was Jason, though. Loved his crazy sick BNBs like:

B+1,2,1, B+1,2,1 B+1,2,1 B+1,2~Choke

Hype wall carry. Gonna play MKX ranked now. Game was just so good and ahead of it's time.

Finally you're making sense again

 

[Shale101]

Who wants to come back to MKX with me? We had options for days. Playing Ermac and doing low profiling D+3 and if it hit going into overhead starter F+4 or low starter B+3. If you fought someone good that would block them you could do your one-frame armor start up EX Push afterwards for added depth and mindgames. So good.

My favorite character was Jason, though. Loved his crazy sick BNBs like:

B+1,2,1, B+1,2,1 B+1,2,1 B+1,2~Choke

Hype wall carry. Gonna play MKX ranked now. Game was just so good and ahead of it's time.

A game that is fun.....not a chore. I've been playing it a lot lately. Everything feels like it makes more sense and flows with ease.

 

[Jowabunga]

Also, as much as people complain about Sub, you don't really see anybody being 'carried' to Top 8 with Sub who wouldn't be there anyway with other characters. Because even if they have one good game or round, they're just as likely to get blown up in the next one if they aren't playing smart.

Hey Crim,

I've had this debate repeatedly with the only guy I play this game with both on and offline. He is an unapologetic sub main whose argument on this topic is that because Sub is not absolute top-tier that that is the only thing that matters and that the character is just fine. While I agree he's not top tier, I also feel that his overall design is degenerate and that playing against him for any length of time is like dumping sand into my eyeballs. In that sense I define the character as scrubby not because it easily allows people to win, but because he allows relatively easy access to degenerate and obnoxious/anti-fun gameplay.

 

[DethRaze]

Hey Crim,

I've had this debate repeatedly with the only guy I play this game with both on and offline. He is an unapologetic sub main whose argument on this topic is that because Sub is not absolute top-tier that that is the only thing that matters and that the character is just fine. While I agree he's not top tier, I also feel that his overall design is degenerate and that playing against him for any length of time is like dumping sand into my eyeballs. In that sense I define the character as scrubby not because it easily allows people to win, but because he allows relatively easy access to degenerate and obnoxious/anti-fun gameplay.

Iceball trade is unbreakable 22%+ so its basically like he's throwing thst much damage from full screen. So you have to get close, but when you do it invites the mix. Like someone said before its like playing a slot machine in a casino where choosing not to play isn't an option. And oh lordy if he gets in FB range and gets the 40%+ execute. Because if you get hit, you're D-E-A-D.

I swear just thinking about all the times I've been robbed by Subzero physically hurts me. I change my vote from Sindel to Subzero. I give respect to all styles of play. If it works, it works. But i just can't have a fun time playing against subzero. We should all try to learn from our losses to become better at the game. But can you learn anything from a coin flip? Honestly asking.

 

[Mandolore1123]

 

[Infamous718]

Iceball trade is unbreakable 22%+ so its basically like he's throwing thst much damage from full screen. So you have to get close, but when you do it invites the mix. Like someone said before its like playing a slot machine in a casino where choosing not to play isn't an option. And oh lordy if he gets in FB range and gets the 40%+ execute. Because if you get hit, you're D-E-A-D.

I swear just thinking about all the times I've been robbed by Subzero physically hurts me. I change my vote from Sindel to Subzero. I give respect to all styles of play. If it works, it works. But i just can't have a fun time playing against subzero. We should all try to learn from our losses to become better at the game. But can you learn anything from a coin flip? Honestly asking.

Did you ask the same question about the last MK game? Literally every character played that way lol

 

[Jowabunga]

Iceball trade is unbreakable 22%+ so its basically like he's throwing thst much damage from full screen. So you have to get close, but when you do it invites the mix. Like someone said before its like playing a slot machine in a casino where choosing not to play isn't an option. And oh lordy if he gets in FB range and gets the 40%+ execute. Because if you get hit, you're D-E-A-D.

I swear just thinking about all the times I've been robbed by Subzero physically hurts me. I change my vote from Sindel to Subzero. I give respect to all styles of play. If it works, it works. But i just can't have a fun time playing against subzero. We should all try to learn from our losses to become better at the game. But can you learn anything from a coin flip? Honestly asking.

I feel every bit of your pain. There's another side to this: I feel strongly that playing against this character consistently fosters terrible fighting game habits. This character wants to push buttons and the only way to consistently prevent that is pushing your own buttons. Defense/patience goes out the window and eventually all you care about is doing whatever it takes to avoid letting him start the vortex/mix. It's an awful cycle that resulted in me actually refusing to play with him after a while

 

[DethRaze]

Did you ask the same question about the last MK game? Literally every character played that way lol

I played SF4 more back then. That game did have its flaws but you could really express yourself in your character. Two ryu players could play totally different. Not only that but the combo routes were wide open and you could do really swaggy unoptimal stuff just to show off lol.

 

[DanCock]

Scrub = person who created this thread and those that agree with them.

 

[DethRaze]

Scrub = person who created this thread and those that agree with them.

I apologize for my opinion. Apparently it was incorrect. I will uninstall the game now.

 

[Raider]

As much as I think she's bottom 5, D'Vorah deserves to be in this discussion.

1. Katipo Rush guaranteeing safety, making every single touch of hers a mixup on block as to whether you're allowed to press buttons after, and creating pressure loops at +13. It's also a mindgame in itself as to whether it's punishable due to the threat of amplification.
2. A combo extender teleport.
3. Long range normals.
4. One of the most insane D2s in the game.
5. Autopilot anti-air special that also has easily one of the top 10 best KBs in the game.
6. Strepsiptera. Dont want your opponent to play? Dont want wakeups to matter? Want to go back to mashing blockstring pressure and Katipo Rush loops? Want your OH/Low mixup to be entirely safe if not plus? Want to threaten a loop into another combo that will lead into another Strep setup? Want to throw out a YOLO Fatal Blow in neutral with 0 risk involved? Just drop the bug-farting bug.

D'Vorah is capable of boosting autopilot players pretty well if their opponent isnt experienced at fighting her. She only flies under the radar cause most of those kinds of players arent interested in a grotesque bug woman (that, and she's not very good).

 

[Son ov Timett]

A game that is fun.....not a chore. I've been playing it a lot lately. Everything feels like it makes more sense and flows with ease.

Aye, nothing laborious about opening up an opponent with a 13 frame 50/50. Easy mode gaming. Ever argue with a taser?

 

[Wigy]

@CrimsonShadow

On your subzero comments.

Nobody really carries in this game at the high level. I say hes got the biggest carry potential but thats lower in the skill curve.

Who would you say is ‘scrubby’? I have a feeling you wouldnt want to call any character scrubby.

I guess this question in general is hard to do as we need a set definition to discuss it.

For me because slide and ex ice ball mean he just doesnt have to deal with the same tools most of the cast do is a big scrub friendly factor. His dash and jump ins allow for a lot of scrubby shit. Then you mix in that his main offence is 50/50s (at the lower level) he’s defo top on scrub level.

 

[ABACABB]

liu

 

[Zgf]

In order, imo, its Sindel, Jade with Delia's Dance, Liu and Jacqui to an extent.

 

[Shale101]

Aye, nothing laborious about opening up an opponent with a 13 frame 50/50. Easy mode gaming. Ever argue with a taser?

Nothing like feeling nothing ever hits because when you knock down an opponent they actually have more advantage then you. I REALLy love when an opponent is getting up and I immediately go for a simple combo but they were about to jump and only the first hit of my combo connects and now they can punish me.

 

[Obly]

Imo, people seem to have a strange definition of 'scrubby' in this thread. High risk/reward isn't "scrubby", because you can usually punish that option just as hard as you get hit for guessing wrong (and in some cases, even harder, depending on the character).

These are normal fighting game mechanics that can be annoying, sure, but are not 'scrubby', any more then something like zoning is 'scrubby'.

Also, as much as people complain about Sub, you don't really see anybody being 'carried' to Top 8 with Sub who wouldn't be there anyway with other characters. Because even if they have one good game or round, they're just as likely to get blown up in the next one if they aren't playing smart.

The only successful subs have learned when to take the risks — and they pick their moments and stay safe a lot/play footsies, rather than just 50/50 all the time. You'll never see Konqueror or 2EZ, etc. just mixing every second, because it doesn't get you very far against good competition.

If you want an example of this, watch 2EZ vs. Poppacap and pay attention to how 2EZ uses movement, spacing, d1 checks, b2 checks/anti-airs, and a lot of footsies with b14 to defeat Poppacap constantly trying to make hard reads in every moment with f2/slide/etc. Even when he does f2, a lot of the time it's f2~Creeping Ice, which does a whopping 14% damage on hit.

All true, but tbf, I was going off the OP's given definition of a "scrubby character": one that appeals to scrubby players because of a toolset that supports a yolo play style and can get a decent number of wins by luck alone.

Obviously people use "scrubby" to refer to a lot of different things. I wasn't saying Sub gets free damage or even wins more than he loses by playing yolo. I was just saying Sub is the most appealing character to a player who wants to play non-stop yolo. For a casual playing with other casuals, his 50/50s will get you a lot of lucky wins even if you have no real skill at the game --and-- when you lose, you can blame your own bad luck instead of lack of skill. That's pretty much the definition of a scrub.

Agreed that Sub doesn't carry players beyond the casual level. But that's just because higher-level players are better at controlling the match and avoiding mix blender situations; it's not because they're so much better at guessing when they are forced to. For casuals who aren't good at avoiding the blender tho, Sub is a nightmare to deal with.

I haven't watched the 2EZ set yet, but I will. But based on your description, it sounds like 2EZ is just taking the mind game to the next level. That is, he staggered Poppacap to death by using his fear of the 50/50 to keep him guessing about when it's coming. Definitely shows skill with the character--but still, 2EZ wouldn't be able to do that if Poppacap wasn't so distracted by trying to be ready to react to a coin flip at any moment. Just knowing that it could come at any time is enough to throw you off your game; it's that added mental stress that I think makes it so unpleasant to play vs. Sub for so many players.

 

[Demon_0]

All of them, in their own way. Except for Shao Kahn.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Just knowing that it could come at any time is enough to throw you off your game; it's that added mental stress that I think makes it so unpleasant to play vs. Sub for so many players.

Which is ok -- but 50/50 mixup characters are a perfectly fine archetype in fighting games, since basically forever.

It's fine to say that it's stressful to fight against a character (and there are many, many characters in many fighting games who are stressful to fight against). But is it scrubby? Not by a longshot.

P.S. 2EZ won not with staggers but by outspacing, out footsie-ing and utilizing better movement, controlling the air, knowing when to flawless block, and interrupting Poppacap with d1 checks before f2 would come out, etc. Basically, fighting game fundaments; no crazy mindgame.

 

[Obly]

Which is ok -- but 50/50 mixup characters are a perfectly fine archetype in fighting games, since basically forever.

It's fine to say that it's stressful to fight against a character (and there are many, many characters in many fighting games who are stressful to fight against). But is it scrubby? Not by a longshot.

Well ok, again, I wasn't calling Sub's design fundamentally "scrubby"; I was saying his design appeals to scrubby players. Subtle but real difference. He may not be a popular tournament choice, but it's not a coincidence that he's wildly popular among casuals.

And right, 50/50 mixups aren't new--but true, unreactable 50/50s are very rare in MK11 in particular. So there is something of a disparity going on here. If you play an "honest" character (most of the roster, more or less) and rely on staggers, spacing, strike/throw, etc., you need to touch your opponent (or bait a whiff) probably 3-4 times for every one time you open them up. Compare that to your opponent who, by design, gets to open you up on roughly half of all touches--and build towards a nasty KB each time. The only question is whether you can avoid being touched, or guess right enough to kill him before he kills you.

I'm not saying that's automatically unfair or unbalanced; it's just extra obnoxious and stressful in a game that's supposed to be about footsies, but where a few characters get to ignore that.