Her gun will easily break the clone and take him down. Shes decent as a zoner.Full Auto Jacqui! Wat? He most likely defeats her, stop spreading misinformation.
Why crystalline doe.In my opinion Grandmaster Sub has 0 losing matchups. He can definitely be a pain in the ass to deal with. But a few characters that go 5-5 with him and can handle him are
Tempest
Summoner
Kobu Jutsu
Hish Qu Ten
Shaolin
Swarm Queen
Cryastalline
Boneshaper
Pumped Up
Dragon Fire
As I said on my other post, the clone is not her issue, it's that he has a lot options to get around her zoning. Even tho I think FA is the best option against him, i don't think it's in her favor, I'd say he defeats her.Her gun will easily break the clone and take him down. Shes decent as a zoner.
You say that because you are not in the corner with a goddamn ice clone in front of you and a bitch harassing you with mix-ups and good damage.Sub-Zero 100% has bad match ups.
King is wrong imo
Losing hard in neutral (or open space) but winning in the corner doesn't = even match up to me.
But he doesn't lose hard in neutral to anyone. Ice clone controls the neutral, in almost every single matchup in the game lol. Ice clone is almost like a neutral destroyer, he stops more than 50% of the cast from doing the normal things they're usually able to do in the neutral. He might lose in neutral to a few characters, but he doesn't lose hard in neutral to anybody. He has great range with B2 and slide, slide recovers almost instantly on whiff so that helps with him getting in on zoning, and pretty decent corner carry. Then everyone already knows what time it is when Grandmaster has you in the corner, probably best corner game in the whole entire cast.Sub-Zero 100% has bad match ups.
King is wrong imo
Losing hard in neutral (or open space) but winning in the corner doesn't = even match up to me.
Swarm Queen
I'd like to hear your reasoning behind SQ D'Vorah not winning this MU or her having an equal neutral with Sub.But he doesn't lose hard in neutral to anyone. Ice clone controls the neutral, in almost every single matchup in the game lol.
If there are any characters that beat Grandmaster in the neutral, it's only slightly.
aftershock is far worse than dvorahHe gets mopped by Dvorah. Loses or is slightly less than hqt, aftershock, summoner, shaolin and maybe more.
Sub-Zero 100% has bad match ups.
King is wrong imo
Losing hard in neutral (or open space) but winning in the corner doesn't = even match up to me.
I agree, sub's corner game is stronk against almost every character but someone like aftershock tremor has so many options to get around the clone, it's tough to control the pace as you say. I don't know if he loses super hard to anyone in neutral like king said but it definitely is a weakpoint in his game.Subs ice clone is absolutely useless against aftershock( besides ex iceclone), so is slide as a mobility option.
He does not control the pace in the aftershock or HQT MU. He has to use his generic tools and make a hard read to try to push them in the corner.
You can't just whiff slide on anyone (especially HQT) that's just sub zero inexperience. You gain almost nothing for it in those specific MU's.
Try playing the character more than Come back to me.
I'm not downplaying or anything. I think Sub is top ten, but I do believe he has losing match ups.
Whats the definition of a bad MU? Tremor limits you to use your basic tool set while he can use most of his arsenal. Air quake alone counters so much.Sub has an amazing D4, great advancing mid in F4, 6 frame jump 3 with a pretty good jump 1. What does he lack in the neutral? He doesn't have like Kotal's neutral, or Kung Lao's, but it's not horrible.
he has a decent footsie build but the fact that I have to use pretty limited tools with unsafe mixups while a character like tremor or dvorah has their entire moveset is kind of unfair, not to mention aftershock for example bodies in the neutral and can completely control the pace while keeping you at fullscreen. Yeah you can say once I get them to the corner its game over or whatever but I'd say he loses more than slightly to some characters and the huge point everyone is missing is that I do have to actually open them up or beat them in the neutral once to get them there. Just to also add things on, theres matchups like tremor, dvorah, hqt, etc. that all have options in the corner albeit not in the basic sense. They have to play more patient and make hard reads to use those options most of the time but it's still more of an option than most of the cast. Most matchups where you have to use essentially use variationless sub zero while being patient just to get in are bad mu's for sureSub has an amazing D4, great advancing mid in F4, 6 frame jump 3 with a pretty good jump 1. What does he lack in the neutral? He doesn't have like Kotal's neutral, or Kung Lao's, but it's not horrible.
True but I have personal salt against Dvorahaftershock is far worse than dvorah
She could have a better neutral then Sub, obviously it's nice her limbs go through the clone. But her neutral being slightly better than his isn't as much of a game changer as him having her in the corner. It's not like you always have to have an ice clone up at all times.I'd like to hear your reasoning behind SQ D'Vorah not winning this MU or her having an equal neutral with Sub.
I would say opening up Devorah/Tremor in the nuetral is 10x easier than Devorah trying to get out of the corner against Grandmasterhe has a decent footsie build but the fact that I have to use pretty limited tools with unsafe mixups while a character like tremor or dvorah has their entire moveset is kind of unfair, not to mention aftershock for example bodies in the neutral and can completely control the pace while keeping you at fullscreen. Yeah you can say once I get them to the corner its game over or whatever but I'd say he loses more than slightly to some characters and the huge point everyone is missing is that I do have to actually open them up or beat them in the neutral once to get them there. Just to also add things on, theres matchups like tremor, dvorah, hqt, etc. that all have options in the corner albeit not in the basic sense. They have to play more patient and make hard reads to use those options most of the time but it's still more of an option than most of the cast. Most matchups where you have to use essentially use variationless sub zero while being patient just to get in are bad mu's for sure
At the risk of breaking being out of character and sounding like I'm upplaying, right before buff/nerf season at that, I cannot respond properly to this message.She could have a better neutral then Sub, obviously it's nice her limbs go through the clone. But her neutral being slightly better than his isn't as much of a game changer as him having her in the corner. It's not like you always have to have an ice clone up at all times.
Grandmaster might have the best corner game out of the entire cast, and with how crazy corner carry and rushdown is in this game that's a serious game changer to have the corner game that Grandmaster has
I do play Sub, and I mopped up Slayer's HQT pretty good made him want to stop playing the matchup. His zoning was nothing, all it takes is for you to slide under one projectile and you're in.Subs ice clone is absolutely useless against aftershock( besides ex iceclone), so is slide as a mobility option.
He does not control the pace in the aftershock or HQT MU. He has to use his generic tools and make a hard read to try to push them in the corner.
You can't just whiff slide on anyone (especially HQT) that's just sub zero inexperience. You gain almost nothing for it in those specific MU's.
Try playing the character more than Come back to me.
I'm not downplaying or anything. I think Sub is top ten, but I do believe he has losing match ups.